Just what is a FAIR fee to send a Bitcoin transaction?

[QuestionAuthority]

If it's anything more than free I'm sure not going to use it for something like paying a bill or getting coffee. My banks debit card doesn't charge me to do that.

If it's a negligible amount like 1 cent then people will think of it as free. Once it rises above a few cents people will choose to use free methods of payment like debit cars. The only case where people might be prepared to pay high fees is sending money abroad when the fees are less than the fees for wiring money between bank accounts.

For transactions where you normally pay a fee to send the money then Bitcoin should be a little below that but where there is no cost to send the transaction there should be no cost for Bitcoin either. If there's a cost no one will use it. You would have to be a fool to stop what you're currently using for free to move to something that will cost you to use.

Currently, the shop often covers the payment fee.. The fee, atleast in the Netherlands can be up to a euro per transaction (depending on your volume ofcourse). As a costumer, you don't see this because the shop takes care of this. Maybe an option like this, where the receiver pays the fee, could be an option?

That's how Visa/MasterCard does it. They charge their percentage to the receiver. Of course, that's passed along to the customer in higher prices. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about transactions that currently do not cost either party anything. I walk into a store and see a flat screen TV that I want to buy for $3k. I don't carry that kind of money around with me so I use a checking debit card that automatically taps my saving account to buy it. There is no fee whatsoever. Why would you routinely pay more for your utility bills (even a penny) month after month when you don't have to? Makes no sense.

If I want to send money quickly to the Russian mafia half way around the world for some reason. That's where Bitcoin shines.

[Keyser Soze]

Currently, the shop often covers the payment fee.. The fee, atleast in the Netherlands can be up to a euro per transaction (depending on your volume ofcourse). As a costumer, you don't see this because the shop takes care of this. Maybe an option like this, where the receiver pays the fee, could be an option?

That's how Visa/MasterCard does it. They charge their percentage to the receiver. Of course, that's passed along to the customer in higher prices. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about transactions that currently do not cost either party anything. I walk into a store and see a flat screen TV that I want to buy for $3k. I don't carry that kind of money around with me so I use a checking debit card that automatically taps my saving account to buy it. There is no fee whatsoever. Why would you routinely pay more for your utility bills (even a penny) month after month when you don't have to? Makes no sense.

If I want to send money quickly to the Russian mafia half way around the world for some reason. That's where Bitcoin shines.

Using a debit card is pretty much the same as using a credit card, the merchant still has a cost.

All forms of payment have a cost, even cash, however in today's society generally the costs are not visible to the consumer as they are already priced into the goods or services.

[ammy009]

If your block size is 1KB or less then the transaction fee will be 0.0001 BTC

So, the fee in fiat @ current BTC/USD price is $0.02

[philipma1957]

Currently, the shop often covers the payment fee.. The fee, atleast in the Netherlands can be up to a euro per transaction (depending on your volume ofcourse). As a costumer, you don't see this because the shop takes care of this. Maybe an option like this, where the receiver pays the fee, could be an option?

That's how Visa/MasterCard does it. They charge their percentage to the receiver. Of course, that's passed along to the customer in higher prices. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about transactions that currently do not cost either party anything. I walk into a store and see a flat screen TV that I want to buy for $3k. I don't carry that kind of money around with me so I use a checking debit card that automatically taps my saving account to buy it. There is no fee whatsoever. Why would you routinely pay more for your utility bills (even a penny) month after month when you don't have to? Makes no sense.

If I want to send money quickly to the Russian mafia half way around the world for some reason. That's where Bitcoin shines.

Using a debit card is pretty much the same as using a credit card, the merchant still has a cost.

All forms of payment have a cost, even cash, however in today's society generally the costs are not visible to the consumer as they are already priced into the goods or services.

  You got that right.  A debit card is very costly.  Let me give a long but  easy to do  example.  

  I have great credit so I never use a debit card. I always use credit cards. Why? I get paid to use them.
I charge 2 k to 4 k a month on my credit cards.  The cashback bonus is 1 to 5% depending on what I am buying. So  a debit card user loses 20 dollars a month at best. That would be  1% of 2k = 20 bucks.  And if the purchases qualify they may lose 200 usd   as 5% of 4k is about 200usd.

I find my credit cards earn me around 60 bucks a month in bonus money.  So if I use a 'free' debit card I spend about  720 a year in lost earnings.

  I won't go much deeper but that 720  I earn allows me to buy gift cards direct from Discover  card and they sell some good cards at a 20% discount.  I can buy 36 $25 dollar gift cards with that 720  .   Some cards are staples and bed bath and beyond.   So A 'free' debit card now loses me 900 usd a year.
  I am also not taking into account that I need to keep a minimum balance with the bank.

I read all the responses here and I find many people don't understand the BTC system and why fees are needed.
Very simple reason no fees make for an endless spamming of the BTC blockchain very cheap and easy to do.
So I pay 0.0001 or 0.0002 as a giveback to the community> I also run a node as a giveback to BTC.
What do I spend to do this under  5 bucks a month.  The node cost me 3.60 and as for transactions maybe 50 x  0.0001 = 0.005 = 1.30  total of 4.90 per month

[QuestionAuthority]

Currently, the shop often covers the payment fee.. The fee, atleast in the Netherlands can be up to a euro per transaction (depending on your volume ofcourse). As a costumer, you don't see this because the shop takes care of this. Maybe an option like this, where the receiver pays the fee, could be an option?

That's how Visa/MasterCard does it. They charge their percentage to the receiver. Of course, that's passed along to the customer in higher prices. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about transactions that currently do not cost either party anything. I walk into a store and see a flat screen TV that I want to buy for $3k. I don't carry that kind of money around with me so I use a checking debit card that automatically taps my saving account to buy it. There is no fee whatsoever. Why would you routinely pay more for your utility bills (even a penny) month after month when you don't have to? Makes no sense.

If I want to send money quickly to the Russian mafia half way around the world for some reason. That's where Bitcoin shines.

Using a debit card is pretty much the same as using a credit card, the merchant still has a cost.

All forms of payment have a cost, even cash, however in today's society generally the costs are not visible to the consumer as they are already priced into the goods or services.

I have a checking account with $100 in it. I go to a Starbucks and charge a $6 cup of coffee. I now have $94 in my checking account and Starbucks has $6. There is no fee for either. I don't care if that cup of coffee costs the bank a million fucking dollars. The customer doesn't pay and the business doesn't pay. That's all the public will see or care about. If that cup of coffee costs one penny more they will keep using their debit card. Remember I'm not talking about credit. Credit is another story and something Bitcoin isn't currently competing with on a large scale.

Edit: I'm talking about Pin Debit using qualified large merchants.

[sana9821]

why the fees should be really high? i dont think that would be a good idea as people wouldnt use it that much

[Xialla]

this should be somehow designed and recognized by users itself, anyway, we should keep fees on some level, that spamming network will cost lot of money, which majority can't effort but in other hand so low, that we will not loose small transactions.

actually 0.0001 BTC fee perfectly fits those needs..

why the fees should be really high? i dont think that would be a good idea as people wouldnt use it that much

because, only with fees you can avoid spam of network by some stupids, which want harm bitcoin..

I have a checking account with $100 in it. I go to a Starbucks and charge a $6 cup of coffee. I now have $94 in my checking account and Starbucks has $6. There is no fee for either. I don't care if that cup of coffee costs the bank a million fucking dollars. The customer doesn't pay and the business doesn't pay. That's all the public will see or care about.

this. same as public care, how long takes first confirmation, they will care about those fees. and you can explain them 200x that cc confirmation takes half a year and bla bla bitcoin arguments..

[BitcoinNewbie15]

I believe that Bitcoin's current fee per transaction is fair. But, if Bitcoin's price rises exponentially, the current transaction fee will seem like a lot for every day purchases. I personally believe 1 - 3 cents is a fair price for instant transactions.

[philipma1957]

I believe that Bitcoin's current fee per transaction is fair. But, if Bitcoin's price rises exponentially, the current transaction fee will seem like a lot for every day purchases. I personally believe 1 - 3 cents is a fair price for instant transactions.

yes and when the fee was 0.001 in 2012 coins were under 10 bucks. Then when coins jumped in price in 2013 many complained fees were too high so they lowered the fee  to 0.0001 maybe in Sept 2014  IIRC.

So I am guessing if coins ever go nuts the fees will move down to 0.00005

[Keyser Soze]

I have a checking account with $100 in it. I go to a Starbucks and charge a $6 cup of coffee. I now have $94 in my checking account and Starbucks has $6. There is no fee for either. I don't care if that cup of coffee costs the bank a million fucking dollars. The customer doesn't pay and the business doesn't pay. That's all the public will see or care about. If that cup of coffee costs one penny more they will keep using their debit card. Remember I'm not talking about credit. Credit is another story and something Bitcoin isn't currently competing with on a large scale.

Edit: I'm talking about Pin Debit using qualified large merchants.

Hmm.. I wasn't aware that there are merchant service providers who have zero fees for pin based debit card transactions. According to the FRB, fees for debit card transactions averaged $0.31 in 2014.

[Cryptopher]

I think around 20 cents is pretty reasonable, maybe even more.

I mean in many cases with discounts for purchasing using Bitcoin then this cost would easily be offset.

[bananas]

No fee is fair, it is not part of the original implementation and was created to prevent spam which is not working very well. An actual solution must take place to prevent spam and fees removed, all kinds of systems manage to prevent spam/DoS without charging its users any money - fees are just a lazy solution.

[Soros Shorts]

No fee is fair, it is not part of the original implementation and was created to prevent spam which is not working very well. An actual solution must take place to prevent spam and fees removed, all kinds of systems manage to prevent spam/DoS without charging its users any money - fees are just a lazy solution.

So when the block rewards wither down to nothing what would be the incentive for miners to continue to mine and secure the network?

The fee should be high enough to keep the miners happy and confirm our transactions.

[d4n13]

I use a fee of 0.00026809 BTC/kB. Bitcoin-Qt says it will confirm within 6 blocks, but it's usually in the next block.

Exactly... Just a reminder to the wallet makers out there... Bitcoin-Qt has a "volume bar" for fees.  You can set the fee low for looooonnnggg conf times, or you can set the fee high for single block confirmations.

Just pay the fee that you want... then suffer the consequences of your decision.

To the broader point (perhaps) of "What fees should wallet makers code?".  I think the best answer is in the reference client.  Make a sliding scale of fees.  If someone wants to save a penny they can afford to wait another hour for the confirmation.

The crux of the issue is people running old clients.  So users, update your clients, devs, reevaluate the fees on each release (as you have done so far).

[QuestionAuthority]

I have a checking account with $100 in it. I go to a Starbucks and charge a $6 cup of coffee. I now have $94 in my checking account and Starbucks has $6. There is no fee for either. I don't care if that cup of coffee costs the bank a million fucking dollars. The customer doesn't pay and the business doesn't pay. That's all the public will see or care about. If that cup of coffee costs one penny more they will keep using their debit card. Remember I'm not talking about credit. Credit is another story and something Bitcoin isn't currently competing with on a large scale.

Edit: I'm talking about Pin Debit using qualified large merchants.

Hmm.. I wasn't aware that there are merchant service providers who have zero fees for pin based debit card transactions. According to the FRB, fees for debit card transactions averaged $0.31 in 2014.

Large merchants like Starbucks bank where the tiered pricing is negligible or free. In the case of tiered pricing a business does not pay interchange fees. Instead, a business pays qualified, mid-qualified and non-qualified rates to a processor. Smaller merchants pay larger fees. Different types of businesses pay different rates also. The point remains that consumers won't pay anything because they don't currently have to. I am such a cheap bastard that I buy gas at ARCO with only cash because they charge more for any card. I refuse to give those blood sucking leeches one penny more than I have to for gas.

Bitcoin has a strong ability to compete with the international money transfer business even if the fee was two dollars. I see no reason why it should be used for everyday purchases where the competition will win. I can pay cash for little stuff under $20. Sending $10k to another country I would want to use Bitcoin and so would anyone else.

[bananas]

No fee is fair, it is not part of the original implementation and was created to prevent spam which is not working very well. An actual solution must take place to prevent spam and fees removed, all kinds of systems manage to prevent spam/DoS without charging its users any money - fees are just a lazy solution.

So when the block rewards wither down to nothing what would be the incentive for miners to continue to mine and secure the network?

The fee should be high enough to keep the miners happy and confirm our transactions.

You are trying to advance a theory problem that may only happen hundreds of years from now.
The difficulty will adjust if "industrial" miners leave because it is not worth to mine anymore, voluntary non profit mining should be enough if it happens.

[Brewins]

for me is the fee that miners accept. If they agree to include the transaction in a block for 0.0001 or for free, then it is the right price

[PenguinFire]

I am seen this becoming a more common question in the past 2,3 weeks.  I just let my online wallet give whatever they do at their own accord. 

[Argwai96]

So i have been doing manual fees since the network could go on stress test at anytime so before sending i make sure too look at the volume in transactions to see if i pay a little more to get confirmations faster.

[josephno1]

I feel that it largely depends on the amount sent. For example for microtransactions such as .001 BTC, it would be unreasonable to charge a large fee. On the other hand with the larger transactions, it doesn't make much sense to charge a .0001BTC fee