FeedZeBirds UPDATE Feb 9, 2013

[evoorhees]

Hello thread - wanted to post this here and address a few things. Recently mentioned by someone on Reddit:

Hey Erik, before you pump out another one of these 2,600 word diatribes calling out someone for accusing bitcoin of being a scam, why don't you stop by your thread on bitcointalk and address your former FeedZeBirds shareholders, where you raised 2,452 BTC (illegally), did essentially nothing, promised a (partial) refund, and then disappeared:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=82866.msg1741669#msg1741669
While it's great that someone wants to stand up and defend bitcoin from these kind of attacks, when the person doing the defending himself is accused of scamming it just makes you and the rest of us look dumb.

A fair criticism I suppose, my response:

[–]evoorhees The money raised for FeedZeBirds totaled about $15,000 (and yes, it was converted to USD back then because there were costs to build, run, and market the site). The business failed, and GLBSE fell apart, so there was no way to know who the shareholders were. SEC commandeered $15,000 from me... I would've preferred to give that $15k back to the shareholders of FZB (if they could be found, which they can't), but the SEC didn't give me that option, and while I was struggling with the SEC I was advised not to discuss anything publicly, thus the lack of updates, which I apologize for. If anyone would like to start a campaign to get the money back from the SEC, I'd love to signup. Edit: feel free to read the SEC settlement as well: http://www.sec.gov/litigation/admin/2014/33-9592.pdf

I'm not sure what I can do at this point to satisfy any of the understandable bad blood that has happened regarding FeedZeBirds. The list of shareholders I received a while back was incomplete to a fault, only covering about 1/4th of the shares sold. A number of people who contacted me claiming to be shareholders were not even shown on the list. I have no idea why it was so messed up or how GLBSE didn't have proper records. There is thus no way to figure out who actually was a shareholder. If someone has a verifiable list, please send to me.

There is no good news here. I am sorry that FZB failed, both as a business and an asset. I wish that the SEC would give the $15,000 they took from me back to the shareholders of FZB, but they, like myself, can't figure out who they are, and the SEC wouldn't do that even if they could (you know, because they care about shareholders).  I am also very sorry for my inability to even provide updates on this topic over the past couple years. Everyone has been in the dark, the whole situation sucks, and the only party who benefited from any of this is the SEC.

I have a few lessons I would love to share with the community regarding crypto-equities after my experience with SatoshiDICE and FZB, but again, because of threats from the SEC, I can't.

Keep innovating and building. I'm sorry I let you guys down on this one.

[burnside]

There is no good news here. I am sorry that FZB failed, both as a business and an asset. I wish that the SEC would give the $15,000 they took from me back to the shareholders of FZB, but they, like myself, can't figure out who they are, and the SEC wouldn't do that even if they could (you know, because they care about shareholders).  I am also very sorry for my inability to even provide updates on this topic over the past couple years. Everyone has been in the dark, the whole situation sucks, and the only party who benefited from any of this is the SEC.

I have a few lessons I would love to share with the community regarding crypto-equities after my experience with SatoshiDICE and FZB, but again, because of threats from the SEC, I can't.

Keep innovating and building. I'm sorry I let you guys down on this one.

Step one would be asking for a better list.  James (nefario) is still around.  Worked at Coinfloor for a while, he's doing other projects now: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mccarthyjames

With the SEC IANAL but I have some experience and my lawyers (Angeli - Ungar Law Group, Portland, OR, Lane Powell PC, Portland, OR, & Jeremy McDermond, Corvallis, OR)  were outstanding.  I think the approach they want you to use is to make the investors whole prior to settlement, as I believe in my case the disgorgement was reduced accordingly.  I'd already dealt with the challenge of the GLBSE lists though so I had that taken care of prior to working with the SEC.  (Referring to LTC-MINING)  I also had the challenge of the fact that I'd spent / lost (lost in the GLBSE closure) most of the funds.  I had to buy the BTC back using what should have been retirement savings, and BTC had gone up in value quite a bit.  Not fun, but I guess it could have been worse.

Hope that makes sense.  I second the keep innovating and building sentiment.    

Cheers.

[evoorhees]

I'm not sure what I can do at this point to satisfy any of the understandable bad blood that has happened regarding FeedZeBirds. The list of shareholders I received a while back was incomplete to a fault, only covering about 1/4th of the shares sold. A number of people who contacted me claiming to be shareholders were not even shown on the list. I have no idea why it was so messed up or how GLBSE didn't have proper records. There is thus no way to figure out who actually was a shareholder. If someone has a verifiable list, please send to me.

There is no good news here. I am sorry that FZB failed, both as a business and an asset. I wish that the SEC would give the $15,000 they took from me back to the shareholders of FZB, but they, like myself, can't figure out who they are, and the SEC wouldn't do that even if they could (you know, because they care about shareholders).  I am also very sorry for my inability to even provide updates on this topic over the past couple years. Everyone has been in the dark, the whole situation sucks, and the only party who benefited from any of this is the SEC.

I have a few lessons I would love to share with the community regarding crypto-equities after my experience with SatoshiDICE and FZB, but again, because of threats from the SEC, I can't.

Keep innovating and building. I'm sorry I let you guys down on this one.

Perhaps you can show shareholders some receipts or a blockchain trail concerning the FeedZeBirds project......flying private planes with convicted money-launderers looks very suspect when you claim that all the funds went to "build,run, and market" the site. Especially when the photo was taken just days after the GLBSE went offline.

"Flying private planes with convicted money-launderers".... wow.  Reality: friend has a prop plane, offered to fly Charlie and me to San Francisco from Phoenix after a payment conference. I chose to take that free transportation instead of paying $400 for a commercial ticket. 

I'm sorry I can't provide receipts for the spending of $15,000 raised... it didn't get very far. A couple months dev work, six months of web hosting, and a few grand on advertising. It got spent, the business wasn't earning significant revenue, we closed it down. And then the SEC took $15,000 more from me.  So investors are out $15k net, I'm out $15k net, and SEC is up $15k net. Again, I'd be happy to work with the SEC to transfer the $15k they got back to those who should get it - the shareholders.  That option was not permitted.

[QuestionAuthority]

I'm not sure what I can do at this point to satisfy any of the understandable bad blood that has happened regarding FeedZeBirds. The list of shareholders I received a while back was incomplete to a fault, only covering about 1/4th of the shares sold. A number of people who contacted me claiming to be shareholders were not even shown on the list. I have no idea why it was so messed up or how GLBSE didn't have proper records. There is thus no way to figure out who actually was a shareholder. If someone has a verifiable list, please send to me.

There is no good news here. I am sorry that FZB failed, both as a business and an asset. I wish that the SEC would give the $15,000 they took from me back to the shareholders of FZB, but they, like myself, can't figure out who they are, and the SEC wouldn't do that even if they could (you know, because they care about shareholders).  I am also very sorry for my inability to even provide updates on this topic over the past couple years. Everyone has been in the dark, the whole situation sucks, and the only party who benefited from any of this is the SEC.

I have a few lessons I would love to share with the community regarding crypto-equities after my experience with SatoshiDICE and FZB, but again, because of threats from the SEC, I can't.

Keep innovating and building. I'm sorry I let you guys down on this one.

Perhaps you can show shareholders some receipts or a blockchain trail concerning the FeedZeBirds project......flying private planes with convicted money-launderers looks very suspect when you claim that all the funds went to "build,run, and market" the site. Especially when the photo was taken just days after the GLBSE went offline.

Isn't that convenient. He didn't keep the receipts. Oops, they went missing! Sorry, the money "got spent". I suppose the blockchain is missing too. lol

[kingcrimson]

It is always the exact same story with EV, blame everyone but himself. I cringe every time he presents himself as a figurehead for bitcoin considering his trademark lack of character and selfishness.

Even in his little 'sorry you're screwed' message, he slips in that he accepted BTC and is sorry he can't payback the USD. BTC should payback bitcoin, you psychopath.

[evoorhees]

"Flying private planes with convicted money-launderers".... wow.  Reality: friend has a prop plane, offered to fly Charlie and me to San Francisco from Phoenix after a payment conference. I chose to take that free transportation instead of paying $400 for a commercial ticket.  

I'm sorry I can't provide receipts for the spending of $15,000 raised... it didn't get very far. A couple months dev work, six months of web hosting, and a few grand on advertising. It got spent, the business wasn't earning significant revenue, we closed it down. And then the SEC took $15,000 more from me.  So investors are out $15k net, I'm out $15k net, and SEC is up $15k net. Again, I'd be happy to work with the SEC to transfer the $15k they got back to those who should get it - the shareholders.  That option was not permitted.

No receipts for the web hosting? Not even emails? A few grand on advertising? Where exactly did you advertise?

I understand you're frustrated with the SEC. I've dealt with them too. But the fact that you WERE fined $15k for this, even though you've retained one of the most prominent attorneys in the space, leads me to believe that you aren't disclosing everything.

It was very foolish of me not to keep receipts/emails of that stuff for obvious reasons. Those complaints against me are legitimate and I don't have a good excuse for it.  

Advertising was done on OperationFabulous, A-Ads, and I think CoinURL. A few grand will get you a month of heavy advertising in those channels... it's really not much.

When you say "you WERE fined $15k for this," it's important to define what "this" is. I was fined for failure to register the securities with the SEC. It was not a fine for fraud of any kind, nor were there accusations of fraud from the SEC. I didn't get permission from them to do what I did, and so they took money from me and made life hell for a while.

[evoorhees]

It is always the exact same story with EV, blame everyone but himself. I cringe every time he presents himself as a figurehead for bitcoin considering his trademark lack of character and selfishness.

Even in his little 'sorry you're screwed' message, he slips in that he accepted BTC and is sorry he can't payback the USD. BTC should payback bitcoin, you psychopath.

Calm down kingcrimson. I'm absolutely to blame for the failure of FZB, and for the poor communication after it fell apart.

Now, "BTC should payback bitcoin," you say. First, investors don't get "paid back" when a business fails. I didn't take on debt from the investors with an interest rate and repayment terms. I took on investment in return for shares of equity. Second, it's absurd to say "BTC should payback bitcoin" unless there is some specific clause in an agreement specifying such.  When you invest or contribute property to something, there is a value of that transaction, called consideration. It would be same if you used dollars or gold or wheat. This concept is not new, and whenever business deals are done, the value of the consideration provided is how restitution or damages are calculated.

You will not find a single example in business case law where a debtor (and this wasn't even a debt situation, as described above) was required to pay back "in kind" instead of based on the value of the consideration, unless an explicit clause in some agreement stipulated that was to be done.

And something tells me that if the bitcoin price had fallen, and Bitcoin was $0.01 each now, that if I paid back the bitcoins to the investors, you would be here railing on me for not paying back the "real value", the USD value, of the investment.

[Surf Capital Management]

First, investors don't get "paid back" when a business fails. I didn't take on debt from the investors with an interest rate and repayment terms.  

You imply that this business failed. Yet, we have NO records that this business actually conducted business (no bills, receipts, invoices, etc.).

Ostensibly, the contract is equity. However, WITHOUT business records this may as well have been a personal loan. THIS would make interesting case law.

[evoorhees]

First, investors don't get "paid back" when a business fails. I didn't take on debt from the investors with an interest rate and repayment terms.  

Yet, we have NO records that this business actually conducted business (no bills, receipts, invoices, etc.).

The website was live and operational - how do you think that happened without "conducting business?"

[Surf Capital Management]

The website was live and operational - how do you think that happened without "conducting business?"

I recall using FeedZeBirds to create a campaign and fund it. There were technical difficulties and the ads were never tweeted or even displayed on the site. I contacted support multiple times for either a refund or a new campaign. My emails remain unanswered. Is that what you meant by "live and operational?"

[evoorhees]

The website was live and operational - how do you think that happened without "conducting business?"

I recall using FeedZeBirds to create a campaign and fund it. There were technical difficulties and the ads were never tweeted or even displayed on the site. I contacted support multiple times for either a refund or a new campaign. My emails remain unanswered. Is that what you meant by "live and operational?"

I'm sorry you had that experience, it must have been after the site went down. I am probably to blame for that. It was working quite well for a number of months, and there were hundreds of tweets sent (each unique tweet being a customer), with thousands of retweets and hundreds of thousands of people reached by the ads: https://twitter.com/FeedZeBirds

By the way... if anyone would like to rebuild the service (using the name or not), I'd be happy to see it live again. I think with a team that executes better than we did, it could be a success.

[retweeting]

The website was live and operational - how do you think that happened without "conducting business?"

I recall using FeedZeBirds to create a campaign and fund it. There were technical difficulties and the ads were never tweeted or even displayed on the site. I contacted support multiple times for either a refund or a new campaign. My emails remain unanswered. Is that what you meant by "live and operational?"

I'm sorry you had that experience, it must have been after the site went down. I am probably to blame for that. It was working quite well for a number of months, and there were hundreds of tweets sent (each unique tweet being a customer), with thousands of retweets and hundreds of thousands of people reached by the ads: https://twitter.com/FeedZeBirds

By the way... if anyone would like to rebuild the service (using the name or not), I'd be happy to see it live again. I think with a team that executes better than we did, it could be a success.

I have a service running at http://re.2et.in which probably serves the same purpose as of FeedZeBirds. I'm neither good at marketing nor do I have the fund to advertise the service. So, it did not take off as expected and hence, you wont find much activity in it. The process of accepting bitcoin payment is not perfect either, but that can be fixed within a week, if the project can fly...

[Branny]

What's your accountant think about not having receipts of any kind to prove expenses?

[toffoo]

Guys, did you see this pic of Erik's booth at the Miami Bitcoin Conference?




Sorry Erik, but the cartoon cracked me up and reading thru this thread makes me feel like you might deserve this more than whoever it was intended for.

[SNS]

Any news about FailZeBirds?