so... what type of person are you?

[mdude77]

I thought I'd ask some rhetorical questions.

Let's say you have a job where you have the luxury of working remotely.  Everything the employees do is logged and attributed to the respective employee, so that the boss can keep track of who's doing what.  Being a smart techie, you realize it'd be possible to modify a little bit of other people's work to make it look like yours.  You could probably get away with it, and in the long run look like you're a lot more productive than everyone else.  Would you do it?

Or, you have a different job where you have the luxury of working remotely.  You know the boss only checks on your work once or twice a week, the same time every week.  You realize that all he cares really is about the total amount of work done by the group, and no one would ever know if made you sure you were working when the boss was there, and goof off the rest of the time.  Obviously everyone couldn't get away with this, but you, or maybe you and your buddy could probably get away with it.  Would you do it?

Or the investment you just heard about, where you are guaranteed to get $6 back for every $5 you put in.  Guaranteed.  It's a privileged investment, only so many people are allowed to be in.  Eventually it'll open to the public, but for now, it's invitation only.  Being the smart guy (or gal) you are, you do the math and realize something is funny about this.  But hey, free money, why not?  Would you do it?

Where do you draw the line, and why?  What would make one scenario theft in your mind, but not the other?

What type of person are you?

M

[1714840247]

1714840247

[mdude77]

I thought I'd ask some rhetorical questions.

Let's say you have a job where you have the luxury of working remotely.  Everything the employees do is logged and attributed to the respective employee, so that the boss can keep track of who's doing what.  Being a smart techie, you realize it'd be possible to modify a little bit of other people's work to make it look like yours.  You could probably get away with it, and in the long run look like you're a lot more productive than everyone else.  Would you do it?

Or, you have a different job where you have the luxury of working remotely.  You know the boss only checks on your work once or twice a week, the same time every week.  You realize that all he cares really is about the total amount of work done by the group, and no one would ever know if made you sure you were working when the boss was there, and goof off the rest of the time.  Obviously everyone couldn't get away with this, but you, or maybe you and your buddy could probably get away with it.  Would you do it?

Or the investment you just heard about, where you are guaranteed to get $6 back for every $5 you put in.  Guaranteed.  It's a privileged investment, only so many people are allowed to be in.  Eventually it'll open to the public, but for now, it's invitation only.  Being the smart guy (or gal) you are, you do the math and realize something is funny about this.  But hey, free money, why not?  Would you do it?

Where do you draw the line, and why?  What would make one scenario theft in your mind, but not the other?

What type of person are you?

M

BTW, in case you missed the analogy, I put this in mining because the above 3 are:

1 - putting bots on people's machines to CPU mine
2 - pool hopping
3 - using a service like gpumax

All are theft to varying degrees..

[BinaryMage]

1. Equivalent to secondary research. What you do for all of school.
2. Equivalent to driving the speed limit when you see a police officer, and 10 mph above otherwise. The societal norm.
3. Effectively equivalent to putting your money in a bank with a minimum deposit. Again, societal norm.

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but don't argue by analogy.

[David_Benz]

I am the type of person that wants more money.

GPUMax gives me more money.

I do not care where they are getting the funds to pay me.  Not one bit.

[kokjo]

I do not care where they are getting the funds to pay me.  Not one bit.

drug dealing, child porn, theft?

[dropt]

drug dealing, child porn, theft?

Holy hyperbole batman!

[mdude77]

1. Equivalent to secondary research. What you do for all of school.
2. Equivalent to driving the speed limit when you see a police officer, and 10 mph above otherwise. The societal norm.
3. Effectively equivalent to putting your money in a bank with a minimum deposit. Again, societal norm.

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but don't argue by analogy.

The above don't relate to money.  Not equal comparisons IMHO.

Oh, and #3, banks cheat, because they make it out of thin air.  That's another argument.

M

[BinaryMage]

1. Equivalent to secondary research. What you do for all of school.
2. Equivalent to driving the speed limit when you see a police officer, and 10 mph above otherwise. The societal norm.
3. Effectively equivalent to putting your money in a bank with a minimum deposit. Again, societal norm.

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but don't argue by analogy.

The above don't relate to money.  Not equal comparisons IMHO.

Oh, and #3, banks cheat, because they make it out of thin air.  That's another argument.

M

Directly, no, but they relate to information, which is exactly equivalent.

Bitcoins are, at their core, information. Information that we decide to give value to, just as a teacher gives value to an essay, a police officer gives value to a speeding ticket, and a bank gives value to a deposit.

My comparisons aren't perfect (you wrote the analogies, not I), but I think they serve well enough to demonstrate that interpretation of analogous statements is entirely based on perspective. If you want to convince people that these activities are immoral, I would suggest a different approach.

I hope you do, as I have yet to hear a convincing argument for both #2 and #3.

[nedbert9]

For practical reasons I need to take advantage of every opportunity I get.

So, I'm a needs based violator of principle.

[mdude77]

Directly, no, but they relate to information, which is exactly equivalent.

Bitcoins are, at their core, information. Information that we decide to give value to, just as a teacher gives value to an essay, a police officer gives value to a speeding ticket, and a bank gives value to a deposit.

My comparisons aren't perfect (you wrote the analogies, not I), but I think they serve well enough to demonstrate that interpretation of analogous statements is entirely based on perspective. If you want to convince people that these activities are immoral, I would suggest a different approach.

I hope you do, as I have yet to hear a convincing argument for both #2 and #3.

So... everyone is mining for info?

Uh huh.

M

[BinaryMage]

Directly, no, but they relate to information, which is exactly equivalent.

Bitcoins are, at their core, information. Information that we decide to give value to, just as a teacher gives value to an essay, a police officer gives value to a speeding ticket, and a bank gives value to a deposit.

My comparisons aren't perfect (you wrote the analogies, not I), but I think they serve well enough to demonstrate that interpretation of analogous statements is entirely based on perspective. If you want to convince people that these activities are immoral, I would suggest a different approach.

I hope you do, as I have yet to hear a convincing argument for both #2 and #3.

So... everyone is mining for info?

Uh huh.

M

Exactly. A hash below a target value. Information - in this case information that we as a community have decided to give value.

[mdude77]

Directly, no, but they relate to information, which is exactly equivalent.

Bitcoins are, at their core, information. Information that we decide to give value to, just as a teacher gives value to an essay, a police officer gives value to a speeding ticket, and a bank gives value to a deposit.

My comparisons aren't perfect (you wrote the analogies, not I), but I think they serve well enough to demonstrate that interpretation of analogous statements is entirely based on perspective. If you want to convince people that these activities are immoral, I would suggest a different approach.

I hope you do, as I have yet to hear a convincing argument for both #2 and #3.

So... everyone is mining for info?

Uh huh.

M

Exactly. A hash below a target value. Information - in this case information that we as a community have decided to give value.

I hope you succeeded in convincing yourself, because you didn't convince me.

M

[BinaryMage]

Directly, no, but they relate to information, which is exactly equivalent.

Bitcoins are, at their core, information. Information that we decide to give value to, just as a teacher gives value to an essay, a police officer gives value to a speeding ticket, and a bank gives value to a deposit.

My comparisons aren't perfect (you wrote the analogies, not I), but I think they serve well enough to demonstrate that interpretation of analogous statements is entirely based on perspective. If you want to convince people that these activities are immoral, I would suggest a different approach.

I hope you do, as I have yet to hear a convincing argument for both #2 and #3.

So... everyone is mining for info?

Uh huh.

M

Exactly. A hash below a target value. Information - in this case information that we as a community have decided to give value.

I hope you succeeded in convincing yourself, because you didn't convince me.

M

Don't worry, your sarcasm came through quite clearly.

Can you explain exactly what I'm saying that you disagree with? Are you contending that private keys or hashes are not information?

[mdude77]

Directly, no, but they relate to information, which is exactly equivalent.

Bitcoins are, at their core, information. Information that we decide to give value to, just as a teacher gives value to an essay, a police officer gives value to a speeding ticket, and a bank gives value to a deposit.

My comparisons aren't perfect (you wrote the analogies, not I), but I think they serve well enough to demonstrate that interpretation of analogous statements is entirely based on perspective. If you want to convince people that these activities are immoral, I would suggest a different approach.

I hope you do, as I have yet to hear a convincing argument for both #2 and #3.

So... everyone is mining for info?

Uh huh.

M

Exactly. A hash below a target value. Information - in this case information that we as a community have decided to give value.

I hope you succeeded in convincing yourself, because you didn't convince me.

M

Don't worry, your sarcasm came through quite clearly.

Can you explain exactly what I'm saying that you disagree with? Are you contending that private keys or hashes are not information?

What you're saying is perfectly true.  It just has absolutely nothing to do with my point. 

Theft is theft.  If you're okay with it, to whatever degree, it's on you, not me.

M

[BinaryMage]

What you're saying is perfectly true.  It just has absolutely nothing to do with my point. 

Theft is theft.  If you're okay with it, to whatever degree, it's on you, not me.

M

I'd like to be shown where I indicated I approved of the three particular methods you mentioned.

In fact, I stated "I don't necessarily disagree with you."

You can make allegations of theft and insults upon my morality all you want, it won't lend validity to your arguments.

My point is simply that analogies are not a convincing method of argument. I'm wondering if you have reasoning that is not based on analogy, and if so whether you would be willing to share it.

[mdude77]

What you're saying is perfectly true.  It just has absolutely nothing to do with my point. 

Theft is theft.  If you're okay with it, to whatever degree, it's on you, not me.

M

I'd like to be shown where I indicated I approved of the three particular methods you mentioned.

In fact, I stated "I don't necessarily disagree with you."

You can make allegations of theft and insults upon my morality all you want, it won't lend validity to your arguments.

I'd like to see where I accused you of theft?

My point is simply that analogies are not a convincing method of argument. I'm wondering if you have reasoning that is not based on analogy, and if so whether you would be willing to share it.

Theft is wrong.  If you, or anyone else doesn't think that, typing until my fingers hurt won't change a thing.

The analogies were to get people to think about what they are doing.  Of course you may argue my analogies are flawed, and that's your privilege.  Doesn't mean you're right, but you can still argue it.

M

[BinaryMage]

What you're saying is perfectly true.  It just has absolutely nothing to do with my point. 

Theft is theft.  If you're okay with it, to whatever degree, it's on you, not me.

M

I'd like to be shown where I indicated I approved of the three particular methods you mentioned.

In fact, I stated "I don't necessarily disagree with you."

You can make allegations of theft and insults upon my morality all you want, it won't lend validity to your arguments.

I'd like to see where I accused you of theft?

My point is simply that analogies are not a convincing method of argument. I'm wondering if you have reasoning that is not based on analogy, and if so whether you would be willing to share it.

Theft is wrong.  If you, or anyone else doesn't think that, typing until my fingers hurt won't change a thing.

The analogies were to get people to think about what they are doing.  Of course you may argue my analogies are flawed, and that's your privilege.  Doesn't mean you're right, but you can still argue it.

M

Apparently I need to clarify.

Can you explain why you consider those three methods/actions to be theft?

I'm not trying to insult your analogies, I'm not stating I approve any of those methods/actions, and I am most certainly not stating that I approve of theft. (I am staunchly against it.) I would just like to hear your argument in order to enhance my viewpoint.

Look, I'm trying to learn here. You sound like you have quite a bit of conviction, and you're making some allegations I haven't heard before. I would like to hear your rationale in a non-analogous form.

If that isn't clear, my apologies, but I'm not sure how much clearer I can get...

[rjk]

BTW, "analogies" are not "logic". Those two things are separate and distinct. Logic is cool, analogies should only be used to support logic not replace it.

[mdude77]

Apparently I need to clarify.

Can you explain why you consider those three methods/actions to be theft?

I'm not trying to insult your analogies, I'm not stating I approve any of those methods/actions, and I am most certainly not stating that I approve of theft. (I am staunchly against it.) I would just like to hear your argument in order to enhance my viewpoint.

Look, I'm trying to learn here. You sound like you have quite a bit of conviction, and you're making some allegations I haven't heard before. I would like to hear your rationale in a non-analogous form.

If that isn't clear, my apologies, but I'm not sure how much clearer I can get...

I'm sorry, I did misunderstand you.

Let's say you have a job where you have the luxury of working remotely.  Everything the employees do is logged and attributed to the respective employee, so that the boss can keep track of who's doing what.  Being a smart techie, you realize it'd be possible to modify a little bit of other people's work to make it look like yours.  You could probably get away with it, and in the long run look like you're a lot more productive than everyone else.  Would you do it?

Taking other people's work and making it look like yours, is stealing their work.  No?

Or, you have a different job where you have the luxury of working remotely.  You know the boss only checks on your work once or twice a week, the same time every week.  You realize that all he cares really is about the total amount of work done by the group, and no one would ever know if made you sure you were working when the boss was there, and goof off the rest of the time.  Obviously everyone couldn't get away with this, but you, or maybe you and your buddy could probably get away with it.  Would you do it?

Getting paid for something you didn't do is stealing, is it not?  Perhaps I should clarify, the above example you look like you're putting in your 40 hours, but you're really putting in 16.

Or the investment you just heard about, where you are guaranteed to get $6 back for every $5 you put in.  Guaranteed.  It's a privileged investment, only so many people are allowed to be in.  Eventually it'll open to the public, but for now, it's invitation only.  Being the smart guy (or gal) you are, you do the math and realize something is funny about this.  But hey, free money, why not?  Would you do it?

Robbing Peter to pay Paul usually looks acceptable when you are Paul.  There are no free lunches, that $1 is coming from somewhere.  And no, it's not interest.  A local bank around here lies through their teeth with the advertisement "great interest rate, 1.5%!"  Perhaps I should clarify the above analogy, you don't get that $6 in 5 years, you get it in a month.

M

[BinaryMage]

[...]

Thank you, that's exactly what I was looking for.