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Author Topic: Cross post: Petition to form an indepentent Objectivist State  (Read 5438 times)
freespirit
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May 27, 2012, 10:13:27 AM
 #21

What EU "commies" think about Georgian government (LOL):
http://library.fes.de/pdf-files/id/08135.pdf
Quote
Two decades after the end of real existing socialism in Georgia, ideology has again
become a problem – this time emanating from the far right. Important economic policy makers subscribe to a radical libertarianism. They fundamentally reject
intervention in the economy, and provision of public goods such as education and
health care by the state.
(article's subtitle: A Challenge for EU Convergence and Trade Unions)

I do not know about you but to me commies unhappy about a government policy means that that government does something good. Smiley

Why do they even keep insisting that EU is still somehow "free" territory? IMO it has long been ruled by socialist principles (or so called social-democratic at best). Enormous taxes, lots of regulation of almost everything, insane extortionist trade unions, state monopolies in some countries etc...
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May 27, 2012, 02:25:20 PM
 #22

What EU "commies" think about Georgian government (LOL):
http://library.fes.de/pdf-files/id/08135.pdf
Quote
Two decades after the end of real existing socialism in Georgia, ideology has again
become a problem – this time emanating from the far right. Important economic policy makers subscribe to a radical libertarianism. They fundamentally reject
intervention in the economy, and provision of public goods such as education and
health care by the state.
(article's subtitle: A Challenge for EU Convergence and Trade Unions)

I do not know about you but to me commies unhappy about a government policy means that that government does something good. Smiley

Why do they even keep insisting that EU is still somehow "free" territory? IMO it has long been ruled by socialist principles (or so called social-democratic at best). Enormous taxes, lots of regulation of almost everything, insane extortionist trade unions, state monopolies in some countries etc...


Friedrich-Ebert-Stiftung is a think tank - nothing to do with the EU. 

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May 27, 2012, 02:28:24 PM
 #23

Friedrich-Ebert-Stiftung is a think tank - nothing to do with the EU.  
How so? It's located in EU and the article is about EU policies... If you read the article a bit you'll realize that it strongly criticizes Georgia's "radical libertarian" policies for conflicting with EU policies. (which are more "proper" according to the author, with more regulation etc.)
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May 27, 2012, 05:02:29 PM
 #24

Friedrich-Ebert-Stiftung is a think tank - nothing to do with the EU.  
How so? It's located in EU and the article is about EU policies... If you read the article a bit you'll realize that it strongly criticizes Georgia's "radical libertarian" policies for conflicting with EU policies. (which are more "proper" according to the author, with more regulation etc.)

Its akin to saying that Cato Institute is in the US, Obama is the President so the Cato Institute could be seen as representative of Obama's policies rather than of the Koch brothers that fund it.  Given the tone of the FES paper, I would not be surprised to find it was a Russian funded it.

EDIT: Its interesting to see an alternative perspective: http://www.esiweb.org/index.php?lang=en&id=322&debate_ID=3  Note this is also another European think tank but its nothing to do with the EU.

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May 27, 2012, 06:01:04 PM
 #25

Its akin to saying that Cato Institute is in the US, Obama is the President so the Cato Institute could be seen as representative of Obama's policies rather than of the Koch brothers that fund it.
It probably would be if Cato Institute would ever defend Obama's policies as vehemently as the author of that paper defends EU's socialistic "values". But somehow I doubt that they ever could do anything even remotely close to it. Grin
Quote
Given the tone of the FES paper, I would not be surprised to find it was a Russian funded it.
I doubt that the author or FES needed any help from Russians or whomever with lamenting on Georgian "anti-EU" policies. The header of their website says "Der Sozialen Demokratie Verpflichtet" (which Google translates as "The Social Democracy Committed") which say it all. His outrage towards Georgian violation of what he believes are "inalienable human rights" (like the "right" to organize with the purpose of extorting something from employers or the "right" to force other people into keeping you employed) is understandable given his affiliation.
Quote
EDIT: Its interesting to see an alternative perspective: http://www.esiweb.org/index.php?lang=en&id=322&debate_ID=3  Note this is also another European think tank but its nothing to do with the EU.
Thanks. It is an interesting link.
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May 27, 2012, 06:15:55 PM
 #26

Do you know that for a few years already European Union has a number of socialist principles promulgated into law? - "Charter of Fundamental Rights" (Look here: http://eur-lex.europa.eu/en/treaties/dat/32007X1214/htm/C2007303EN.01000101.htm or here: http://www.eurofound.europa.eu/areas/industrialrelations/dictionary/definitions/charteroffundamentalrightsoftheeuropeanunion.htm, among those "rights" are now a number of things that somebody else has to pay for.

I'm all for human rights and freedoms but having somebody else pay for your "rights" kind of contradicts and discredits the whole idea as rights of the person who pays become violated as they are deprived of the freedom of choice under this EU "fundamental rights" charter.
No one should have a "right" to steal other people's property (therefore violating their rights) via forced taxation or otherwise.
Human rights end where they trespass on the rights of another human being. The EU crossed that line a long time ago and by a lot.

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May 27, 2012, 06:36:41 PM
 #27

EDIT: Its interesting to see an alternative perspective: http://www.esiweb.org/index.php?lang=en&id=322&debate_ID=3  Note this is also another European think tank but its nothing to do with the EU.
At the first glance it does not look so "alternative".
This:
Quote
The shaping of Georgia's current reform agenda risks deepening the divide between Georgia and the rest of Europe, leaving the country more isolated and vulnerable.
Looks almost like an attempt of blackmail/intimidation from EU socialistic establishment Grin

Generally, libertarians and the likes are a minority around the world, and [all kinds of] socialists are likely a majority now. So it is no surprise that there are so many "alternative" perspectives praising the same "values". (and so much pressure) Do not forget that all this "socialism" breeds all kinds of vested interests, the EU bureaucracy practically spawned new kind of people with new kind of careers (and new kind of agenda - to regulate and redistribute more an more etc. to have more justifications for their own existence, to have more lobbying powers etc.). Of course I generalize and simplify. But anyway...
Ayn Rand warned about this half a century ago, naming [mostly US] educational institutions as the main culprit for presenting Kantian philosophy/morality as the "proper" one, shaping people's minds with it.

Even terminology changed its meaning. Liberals of the 19th century were more like what we call "libertarians" today, and "liberal" today almost means "socialist" (more so in the US). "Democracy" in Europe really means "social democracy". (and non-social democracy they seem to call radical-whatever LOL)

If you think that I exaggerate or I am paranoid, try googling on lobbyism by members of European parliament (and their undeclared income in the region of hundreds of thousands from it) or improper handling of expenditure, procurement etc. (those numbers were above 90% a year or two ago as far as I remember, and of course no one could find anyone responsible Cheesy )
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May 27, 2012, 07:05:01 PM
 #28

http://www.esiweb.org/index.php?lang=en&id=322&debate_ID=3&slide_ID=20

It looks positive to me. 

The issue of "reform" that is incompatible with the EU is down to this guy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kakha_Bendukidze

He "privatised" by selling to Russians and you'll find that there were French, German and Italians bidding for the same projects but were excluded.  I tried to enter Georgia at a Turkish crossing and was refused because the Russian Army was running the post and didn't want Western Europeans going there - its hard to explain just how messed up the borders and politics is in that part of the world.

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May 27, 2012, 07:23:05 PM
 #29

The issue of "reform" that is incompatible with the EU is down to this guy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kakha_Bendukidze
He is just one of the most visible people. My understanding is that the whole "governing team" is like-minded more or less (and I've been following information from this country for a while on and off)
Quote
He "privatised" by selling to Russians and you'll find that there were French, German and Italians bidding for the same projects but were excluded.
Can you be more specific? What projects are those? Current Georgian government (since 2003, part of which Bendukidze was) is in fact very pro-western (the president is US-educated) and that's the reason Putin is so angry with them for leaving his "zone of special interests". Russians do not own much in Georgia. (if you do not count occupied regions)
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I tried to enter Georgia at a Turkish crossing and was refused because the Russian Army was running the post and didn't want Western Europeans going there - its hard to explain just how messed up the borders and politics is in that part of the world.
Russian army in Georgia at the Turkish border??? Shocked What year was that? Some time in the nineties I guess? It is a completely different country now. Now Russian army can only be found in the northern regions it occupied. Soviet KGB and police were disbanded (and some prosecuted, and some ran away to Russia). They created a new law enforcement force almost from scratch which as I remember was evaluated a couple of years back as much more trusted (by the citizens, the number was 80%+) than in EU countries like France.

EDIT: http://pik.tv/en/news/story/36638-georgia-celebrates-national-police-day
Quote
06 MAY 2012
Our society considers Georgian police to be one of the most competent and esteemed organizations in the world. The latest opinion polls show that the level of trust towards the police has reached 90%
Quote
The president also said that similar polls in 2002 illustrated that only 5-6% of citizens trusted Georgian police.
“People in Georgia disliked the police, because the law enforcement authorities were associated with danger. It was a time when organized crime was easily operating in Georgia. They had links with the authorities, were even part of it and of the law enforcement system as a whole. Consequently, the police reform was one of the most important and we had to conduct it immediately,” Saakashvili said.
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May 27, 2012, 07:49:45 PM
 #30

Turns out there is a dedicated website website/publication on this matter:
http://www.georgianreforms.com/
"2004-2010 Seven Years That Changed Georgia Forever"
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May 27, 2012, 08:36:53 PM
 #31

Turns out there is a dedicated website website/publication on this matter:
http://www.georgianreforms.com/
"2004-2010 Seven Years That Changed Georgia Forever"


You are correct - it was in the 90s I was refused entry.  The USSR had fallen apart and I was trying to explore the place during a trip to the Black Sea. 

Interesting site.  I had no idea that they were trying something so interesting.  Its not a fair trial of libertarianism as the Abhaz and Sth Ossetian areas are occupied and Putin is on record as saying he is "going to hang Saakashvili by the balls."  But its interesting to see how it goes.

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May 27, 2012, 09:16:43 PM
 #32

they were trying something so interesting.
That's exactly what got my attention too.
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Its not a fair trial of libertarianism as the Abhaz and Sth Ossetian areas are occupied and Putin is on record as saying he is "going to hang Saakashvili by the balls."  But its interesting to see how it goes.
Putin is a petty thug essentially, a bully who talks much more that he actually is able do. Besides, the Russian government is so corrupt that it hardly can conquer anyone. Rumor has it (NATO sources spoke off the record to some journalists) that the real reason why Russian tanks did not reach Tbilisi (Georgian capital) in 2008 is that they were literally falling apart because officials who run the army (not unlike most of their colleagues in Russia) steal everything - fuel, spare parts etc. (or just the funds allotted to all this), also soldiers were underfed (according to resident of occupied regions who have had to feed them) for the same corrupt reasons etc. and were in pretty bad shape.
And using nuclear WMDs is not an option as Putin's cronies do not wish to become outcasts in the West which is made clear for example by all those numerous attempts by Russian delegations in the US and EU to try to prevent passing of Justice for Magnitsky Bill and similar bills in Europe. (more details here: http://russian-untouchables.com/eng/ )
They want to be able to pillage Russia with impunity (even killing people in the process if they are in their way, like aforementioned Mr. Magnitsky) and at the same time be able to spend their hard "earned" cash in the West, bring their families there, educate their children etc.

So I'm pretty sure that Georgian president's balls are safe Grin (at least from Putin)
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May 27, 2012, 11:44:36 PM
 #33

I am experimenting with this concept:  Lets have a tip jar for this thread.  I think that everyone contributing to this thread should make some money, because they spend time writing about an important topic.

Here's the tip jar:

https://propster.me/tipjar/0C7M1NB

Once the balance reaches something significant it will be distributed among all the participants.  I will go over the comments in the thread, and count everyone participated, discounting posts that are not substantial.  Also, if someone reads this thread much later, he will still have a chance to contribute to the thread tip jar.

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June 18, 2012, 11:53:55 PM
 #34

Interesting site.  I had no idea that they were trying something so interesting.  Its not a fair trial of libertarianism as the Abhaz and Sth Ossetian areas are occupied and Putin is on record as saying he is "going to hang Saakashvili by the balls."  But its interesting to see how it goes.

I would like to personally commend you for being so willing to admit that it's not a fair trial. In return, I'll admit that the USSR is not valid empirical evidence against any non-authoritarian stream of socialism.

Argumentum ad lunam: the fallacy that because Bitcoin's price is rising really fast the currency must be a speculative bubble and/or Ponzi scheme.
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June 18, 2012, 11:56:49 PM
 #35

non-authoritarian stream of socialism.
Any form of socialism requires coercion for its implementation. Whether this coercion goes hand in hand with authoritarianism does not really matter. It is wrong regardless.
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June 19, 2012, 12:20:03 AM
 #36

The Anarchism in Spain wasn't coercive.

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June 19, 2012, 12:34:36 AM
 #37

The Anarchism in Spain wasn't coercive.
And this related to socialism how?
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June 19, 2012, 12:50:01 AM
 #38

The Anarchism in Spain wasn't coercive.
And this related to socialism how?
Anarcho-syndicalism is socialist anarchy.

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June 21, 2012, 02:17:17 AM
 #39

We could just do it in our houses, like a virtual collective or state, resisting government intrusion on to our lands, protesting by simply not doing anything, using only Bitcoin for our needs sort of like Mahatma Bitcoin?

Rather than forming an easy target, those of us lucky enough to own property could take advantage of that sort of like Occupy for the landed gentry?

It was a cunning plan to have the funny man be the money fan of the punning clan.
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June 21, 2012, 06:27:41 AM
 #40

No, the whole point is that you still have to pay taxes, even if you use Bitcoin. The petition will allow us not to pay income tax -- we will just stick to a small geographic area, and would interact with the rest of the country in fair way.

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