Does Bitcoin have the potential to evade capital controls?

[BlindMayorBitcorn]

 

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[Lethn]

In theory, it's easy, but we've yet to see a massive attempt by a government to actually confiscate Bitcoin and I'm not talking about taking down a couple of drug markets, all you'd have to do is either take it on a USB or rent a VPS in a certain country you're going to and then send it over and retrieve it once you cross the border.

[BlindMayorBitcorn]

In theory, it's easy, but we've yet to see a massive attempt by a government to actually confiscate Bitcoin and I'm not talking about taking down a couple of drug markets, all you'd have to do is either take it on a USB or rent a VPS in a certain country you're going to and then send it over and retrieve it once you cross the border.

I've always thought this was the strongest argument for Bitcoin. Just wanted some deeper thoughts than mine

Thanks

[cryptasm]

If Bitcoin would get controled by the government, it will be just like any other currency.
That is what makes Bitcoin so special in my opinion

[oprahwindfury]

If Bitcoin would get controled by the government, it will be just like any other currency.
That is what makes Bitcoin so special in my opinion

But the thing is Bitcoin still CAN be controlled by governments. Remember the Chinese government backlash against BTC late last year? All it takes is for a government to ban it outright. Sure, there will still be users on the black market but the mainstream will see it as something illegal and something that is not worth their time. That is how governments can control Bitcoin.

[aljunking]

If Bitcoin would get controled by the government, it will be just like any other currency.
That is what makes Bitcoin so special in my opinion

Decentralized. That is the world.

[Undermood]

The gov isn't able to directly control bitcoin network but only able to regulate the individuals or startups who are dealing with bitcoin. You can easily evade the capital control by the gov and just do on-chain transaction.

[Spendulus]

Yes.

This occurs due to the simple fact that bitcoin lacks a physical location.  Therefore when one crosses a national border with capital controls, the movement or lack of of the bitcoin cannot be affected.

Another example is when a country, say Argentina, restricts the inflow and use of a substitute currency - like the US dollar.  The BTC can be made illegal, but this is a different matter than restricting it's use.

Legal or illegal does not restrict black markets, rather they flourish where supply is lower than demand due to legal restrictions.  Thus restrictions encourage black markets very existence. 

I suspect this means that "making bitcoin illegal" will cause it to flourish in those countries which make it illegal, but nobody is really sure at this point.  Kind of like Prohibition and the War on Drugs.....

[username18333]

The gov isn't able to directly control bitcoin network but only able to regulate the individuals or startups who are dealing with bitcoin. You can easily evade the capital control by the gov and just do on-chain transaction.

Governments can, however, dissolve mining pools and other critical, meatspace elements of Bitcoin.

[Mccoy818]

It doesn't have the potential to evade capital controls, it renders them obsolete right now.

How can you back up what you said?

[zetaray]

Of course it does, that is the main reason of banning bitcoin in countries with exchange controls. They are currently focusing on the exchanges because they can't prevent users from owning bitcoins, only users conventing to local currencies.

[BIT-Sharon]

The essential reason of controlling the price of Bitcoin is the two attitudes for it. One is its subversive significance for financing and currency and collection value of scarce quantity, in the long run, its value is sure to rise. However, the expected political risk of bitcoin which was covered in dark dealing for a long time is corresponding attitude. Certainly, everyone knows this. It is not practical that Bitcoin can circulate widely as a currency; however, it is fantastic to collect and circulate in small scope. However, the passion of speculator for Bitcoin will not decease in short period, so Bitcoin will keep going to be in a rollercoaster.

[Elwar]

But the thing is Bitcoin still CAN be controlled by governments. Remember the Chinese government backlash against BTC late last year? All it takes is for a government to ban it outright. Sure, there will still be users on the black market but the mainstream will see it as something illegal and something that is not worth their time. That is how governments can control Bitcoin.

I agree, what with all of the China exchanges going away and no more Bitcoin in China anymore. The proof is in the pudding.

[Lethn]

But the thing is Bitcoin still CAN be controlled by governments. Remember the Chinese government backlash against BTC late last year? All it takes is for a government to ban it outright. Sure, there will still be users on the black market but the mainstream will see it as something illegal and something that is not worth their time. That is how governments can control Bitcoin.

I agree, what with all of the China exchanges going away and no more Bitcoin in China anymore. The proof is in the pudding.

That's not proof in the slightest, all they've done is shut down some exchanges, I have yet to see them attempt to stop people from making direct transactions in Bitcoin, for all this talk about getting away from government on this forum you guys sure don't think that way sometimes and are quick to despair when they take the ability to trade for fiat currency.

Just so you know, even if they took down all the trading exchanges in the UK that deal in pound I would still be able to trade Bitcoin for gold and sell that off.

[Elwar]

But the thing is Bitcoin still CAN be controlled by governments. Remember the Chinese government backlash against BTC late last year? All it takes is for a government to ban it outright. Sure, there will still be users on the black market but the mainstream will see it as something illegal and something that is not worth their time. That is how governments can control Bitcoin.

I agree, what with all of the China exchanges going away and no more Bitcoin in China anymore. The proof is in the pudding.

That's not proof in the slightest, all they've done is shut down some exchanges, I have yet to see them attempt to stop people from making direct transactions in Bitcoin, for all this talk about getting away from government on this forum you guys sure don't think that way sometimes and are quick to despair when they take the ability to trade for fiat currency.

Just so you know, even if they took down all the trading exchanges in the UK that deal in pound I would still be able to trade Bitcoin for gold and sell that off.

Ya, I was being sarcastic considering China has the highest volume of all exchanges...China should ban some more to increase the volume even more.

okcoin
btcchina
huobi
lakebtc

[sublime5447]

It doesn't have the potential to evade capital controls, it renders them obsolete right now.

How can you back up what you said?

I can send bitcoins to anyone with a public Bitcoin address, right now, without asking for help from a middleman or permission from an authority. Anyone who can connect to the internet can download a client and obtain a Bitcoin address to receive bitcoins without asking for help from a middleman or permission from an authority.

Stupid shit thats how, nonsense. This assume the person on the other end wants a fucking bitcoin. Retards think people are gonna eat a bitcoin, live under a bitcoin, heat themselves with a bitcoin, pay taxes with a bitcoin.

Bitcoin can't stop capital controls because it requires national fiat to operate. The government will simply go to the point of centralization and demand its cut and maybe accountability.  

[sublime5447]

This assume the person on the other end wants a fucking bitcoin.

Yeah, it does assume the person on the other end wants to be free. If they want to be a wage slave, they are obviously going to have to deal with capital controls.

Freedom isn't easy and it isn't going to get any easier. You seem to want the "final" solution now. Well... it doesn't exist. We can only hope to work towards it.

The scarcity model always enslaves the masses.

Two Kinds of Money

1.The Scarcity Model: A single uniform quantity in limited supply made valuable by its own scarcity.
In other words, the value of this type of money depends on the supply of, and demand for, the money commodity itself. Conventional definitions of money define money only in terms of this model, a "medium of exchange". Examples are: cowries, gold and silver, fiat cash and coins, bank credit, and now, in the model's purest and most spectacularly speculative form, Bitcoin.

2. The Abundance Model. A promise of something specific from someone specific made valuable by its redemption in real production. The value of this type of money is defined by the promised redemption in goods and/or services. As such, this type of money is promises of an indefinite number of non-uniform commodities in indefinite supply and, unlike the limited quantity "coin" concept of money, the total quantity of these credits in circulation does not affect their value, because the value of a credit is defined by what its issuer will redeem it for in real goods and/or services. Examples are: business-to-business barter credits, customer rewards, travel points, discount coupons, mutual credit systems.

[username18333]

The gov isn't able to directly control bitcoin network but only able to regulate the individuals or startups who are dealing with bitcoin. You can easily evade the capital control by the gov and just do on-chain transaction.

Governments can, however, dissolve mining pools and other critical, meatspace elements of Bitcoin.

Mining pools aren't critical elements of Bitcoin. They could all disappear today and Bitcoin would continue to function. (Of course, hash rate providers are going to have to learn to solo mine or use P2Pool, but any of them worth their salt should be defaulting to solo mining on pool failure anyway.)

Everything that makes duplicating the Bitcoin space non-trivial is fundamental to its market dominance.

[Spendulus]

This assume the person on the other end wants a fucking bitcoin.

Yeah, it does assume the person on the other end wants to be free. If they want to be a wage slave, they are obviously going to have to deal with capital controls.

Freedom isn't easy and it isn't going to get any easier. You seem to want the "final" solution now. Well... it doesn't exist. We can only hope to work towards it.

Except it doesn't quite work that way.  What happens is that a substitute currency infiltrates a country at the person to person level.  Historically IIRC these events are 10-70ish years in the making.  The substitute comes gradually to be accepted and used because it was needed.  It was needed because of the debasing of the country's fiat currency by those in power.

The substitute is always fought by those who ruined the primary currency, but eventually they need it too.

The substitute comes into play because it is necessary expedient in commercial transactions, often having a pricing advantage. 

So....right now there are people on the other end who "wants a fucking bitcoin."  This user base is expanding.  It may be expected that being an Internet phenomenon it's expansion may be more like that of Facebook or Ebay than traditional substitute currency models.  But the expansion is obviously limited by the (rising) number of people and companies that want to trade with the currency.

[TaunSew]

I don't think so.  Some of the ATMs don't ask for ID but most of them seem to.  Somebody who would want to engage in capital flight would have to sell it privately per individual and I suspect this is a highly illegal activity in most areas and you also risk being mugged.

[Spendulus]

This assume the person on the other end wants a fucking bitcoin.

Yeah, it does assume the person on the other end wants to be free. If they want to be a wage slave, they are obviously going to have to deal with capital controls.

Freedom isn't easy and it isn't going to get any easier. You seem to want the "final" solution now. Well... it doesn't exist. We can only hope to work towards it.

Except it doesn't quite work that way.  What happens is that a substitute currency infiltrates a country at the person to person level.  Historically IIRC these events are 10-70ish years in the making.  The substitute comes gradually to be accepted and used because it was needed.  It was needed because of the debasing of the country's fiat currency by those in power.

The substitute is always fought by those who ruined the primary currency, but eventually they need it too.

The substitute comes into play because it is necessary expedient in commercial transactions, often having a pricing advantage. 

So....right now there are people on the other end who "wants a fucking bitcoin."  This user base is expanding.  It may be expected that being an Internet phenomenon it's expansion may be more like that of Facebook or Ebay than traditional substitute currency models.  But the expansion is obviously limited by the (rising) number of people and companies that want to trade with the currency.

I'm less interested in Bitcoin's ability to protect me from inflation (I can use more traditional methods for that) and more interested in Bitcoin's ability to allow me to retain complete control of my asset. I could care less if Bitcoin ever becomes a "primary currency" or not.

Yeah, I agree with that.  Facebook, an online social media, did not take the place of bars, clubs, church meetings and other traditional real world social meetups.  Similarly, an on line currency should not destroy fiat currencies.  It may impact fiat currency INSTITUTIONS, but not the currency itself.

However, "capital controls" means more than inflation.  It may mean that you, say in the US, are not allowed to own South African Rands or Euros, or perhaps you are not allowed more than a certain amount.  It may mean that you cannot move more than $500 per day from a checking account, or that your accounts having more than $100,000 have the unnecessary excess above that amount removed for the public good....

[BlindMayorBitcorn]

This assume the person on the other end wants a fucking bitcoin.

Yeah, it does assume the person on the other end wants to be free. If they want to be a wage slave, they are obviously going to have to deal with capital controls.

Freedom isn't easy and it isn't going to get any easier. You seem to want the "final" solution now. Well... it doesn't exist. We can only hope to work towards it.

Except it doesn't quite work that way.  What happens is that a substitute currency infiltrates a country at the person to person level.  Historically IIRC these events are 10-70ish years in the making.  The substitute comes gradually to be accepted and used because it was needed.  It was needed because of the debasing of the country's fiat currency by those in power.

The substitute is always fought by those who ruined the primary currency, but eventually they need it too.

The substitute comes into play because it is necessary expedient in commercial transactions, often having a pricing advantage.  

So....right now there are people on the other end who "wants a fucking bitcoin."  This user base is expanding.  It may be expected that being an Internet phenomenon it's expansion may be more like that of Facebook or Ebay than traditional substitute currency models.  But the expansion is obviously limited by the (rising) number of people and companies that want to trade with the currency.

I'm less interested in Bitcoin's ability to protect me from inflation (I can use more traditional methods for that) and more interested in Bitcoin's ability to allow me to retain complete control of my asset. I could care less if Bitcoin ever becomes a "primary currency" or not.

+1

[deluxeCITY]

This assume the person on the other end wants a fucking bitcoin.

Yeah, it does assume the person on the other end wants to be free. If they want to be a wage slave, they are obviously going to have to deal with capital controls.

Freedom isn't easy and it isn't going to get any easier. You seem to want the "final" solution now. Well... it doesn't exist. We can only hope to work towards it.

Except it doesn't quite work that way.  What happens is that a substitute currency infiltrates a country at the person to person level.  Historically IIRC these events are 10-70ish years in the making.  The substitute comes gradually to be accepted and used because it was needed.  It was needed because of the debasing of the country's fiat currency by those in power.

The substitute is always fought by those who ruined the primary currency, but eventually they need it too.

The substitute comes into play because it is necessary expedient in commercial transactions, often having a pricing advantage. 

So....right now there are people on the other end who "wants a fucking bitcoin."  This user base is expanding.  It may be expected that being an Internet phenomenon it's expansion may be more like that of Facebook or Ebay than traditional substitute currency models.  But the expansion is obviously limited by the (rising) number of people and companies that want to trade with the currency.

I'm less interested in Bitcoin's ability to protect me from inflation (I can use more traditional methods for that) and more interested in Bitcoin's ability to allow me to retain complete control of my asset. I could care less if Bitcoin ever becomes a "primary currency" or not.

Well if bitcoin cannot protect you from inflation (and you purchasing power of your bitcoin declines substantially) then the fact that you have control over your asset becomes a moot point.

[BlindMayorBitcorn]

This assume the person on the other end wants a fucking bitcoin.

Yeah, it does assume the person on the other end wants to be free. If they want to be a wage slave, they are obviously going to have to deal with capital controls.

Freedom isn't easy and it isn't going to get any easier. You seem to want the "final" solution now. Well... it doesn't exist. We can only hope to work towards it.

Except it doesn't quite work that way.  What happens is that a substitute currency infiltrates a country at the person to person level.  Historically IIRC these events are 10-70ish years in the making.  The substitute comes gradually to be accepted and used because it was needed.  It was needed because of the debasing of the country's fiat currency by those in power.

The substitute is always fought by those who ruined the primary currency, but eventually they need it too.

The substitute comes into play because it is necessary expedient in commercial transactions, often having a pricing advantage.  

So....right now there are people on the other end who "wants a fucking bitcoin."  This user base is expanding.  It may be expected that being an Internet phenomenon it's expansion may be more like that of Facebook or Ebay than traditional substitute currency models.  But the expansion is obviously limited by the (rising) number of people and companies that want to trade with the currency.

I'm less interested in Bitcoin's ability to protect me from inflation (I can use more traditional methods for that) and more interested in Bitcoin's ability to allow me to retain complete control of my asset. I could care less if Bitcoin ever becomes a "primary currency" or not.

Well if bitcoin cannot protect you from inflation (and you purchasing power of your bitcoin declines substantially) then the fact that you have control over your asset becomes a moot point.

That's a fair point, but it's a different point.

[deepestfear]

In theory yes, in practice you need to protect yourself against government packet filtering digital signature of your btc transactions to protect yourself

[BlindMayorBitcorn]

Bumped. In light of recent events. Totally legit bump!

http://unenumerated.blogspot.ca/2015/07/the-greek-financial-mess-and-some-ways.html

[Beliathon]

Does Bitcoin have the potential to evade capital controls?

If the following link works, the answer is yes: http://www.thepiratebay.org/

[Spendulus]

Does Bitcoin have the potential to evade capital controls?

If the following link works, the answer is yes: http://www.thepiratebay.org/

Most, if not all, of the arguments presented against bitcoin "evading capital controls" really address the liquidity of bitcoin, not it's ability to evade capital controls.

Liquidity may be viewed as conversion to desired currency within an hour, a day, a month or a year.  

Is bitcoin as liquid as precious metals, paintings, houses, currency?

What of these "evade capital controls?"

How about Internet based assets?

Bank accounts, stocks, etc?  The capital controls on these are based on the physical location of the entity acting as custodian.

The third party intermediary.

Cut him out.

A bit more.  Here's a real simple example of "capital controls."

Country X has an "official exchange rate" of 5 money-units for 1 USD.  But the street price everywhere is 8 money units for 1 USD.  And everyone uses the street price.  But merchants doing business with MC/VISA are forced to exchange at the official rates.

What rate does BTC transfer at?  You figure it.