Cloudmining without proof of mining [poll]

[jimmothy]

As most of us know, the great invention known as the blockchain gives us the ability to see exactly how much BTC any address holds and where it came from without requiring trust in a third party.

Strangely enough many cloudmining companies are not taking advantage of this incredibly easy way to prove their legitimacy which requires practically no time and effort.

Just curious to hear some thoughts/opinions.

If you haven't already I would check out this blog to get a better understanding of how the blockchain and mining works: http://organofcorti.blogspot.com/2014/10/october-28th-2014-weekly-bitcoin.html

Bitcoin lead developer Gavin Andresen's take on cloudmining: https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/gavin-andresen-suspects-ponzi-schemes-bitcoin-cloud-mining/

[1715624106]

1715624106

[ErikvanBreen]

Zeushash has always been visibly mining on the Litecoin network 

[jimmothy]

Zeushash has always been visibly mining on the Litecoin network  

Here are a few others that are visible on the network:

Hashnest (antpool)
KNC
Cointerra
Cloudhashing
Bitfury
Bitfinex
AMHash

[sumantso]

Gawminers, LTCgear and PBmining are the noticeable absentees. I am almost sure that LTCgear is a short term ponzi, don't see it giving such a huge returns for a long time.

[notlist3d]

Gawminers, LTCgear and PBmining are the noticeable absentees. I am almost sure that LTCgear is a short term ponzi, don't see it giving such a huge returns for a long time.

I wont get into this..... but one off these companies seems to have more than their share of low activity posters.

I think likely if they do not provide IP or there are no pictures.   I believe what I can see. For example hashnest you get no ip, but they have pictures to back it up.

One of the companies above..... their picture is a chip looking animated thing.  I think that leads into ponzi.

Personally I am lucky I have been able to host at home with decent priced electricity.  I love having control to point it to any pool, specifically on scrypt.

[bitgeek]

GAW for example is leasing their hash, so if they are mining themselves it's just with a fraction of their total power. They showed a lot of pictures and recently bought a lot of hardware from Bitmain, which was confirmed by the seller.

[jimmothy]

GAW for example is leasing their hash, so if they are mining themselves it's just with a fraction of their total power. They showed a lot of pictures and recently bought a lot of hardware from Bitmain, which was confirmed by the seller.

Pictures are not proof because there are many ways they can be faked.

Bitmain confirming their 5PH/s purchase is a step in the right direction but still requires trust in a third party. (although Bitmain is pretty trustworthy)

I have no doubt that GAW will let everyone know their mining address as soon as they get the 5 PH/s online.

[jimmothy]

New cloudmining offering AMHash has disclosed their mining addresses:

5.There are 3 payment addresses of our hashrate:
  1HtUGfbDcMzTeHWx2Dbgnhc6kYnj1Hp24i
  1ERszMSERwHNR9Xty73KZXpsg1jjBXWcHh
  1K7AuMJwVfZg3UVjinnjT2HzG4pJvACat6

[jimmothy]

New cloudmining offering AMHash has disclosed their mining addresses:

5.There are 3 payment addresses of our hashrate:
  1HtUGfbDcMzTeHWx2Dbgnhc6kYnj1Hp24i
  1ERszMSERwHNR9Xty73KZXpsg1jjBXWcHh
  1K7AuMJwVfZg3UVjinnjT2HzG4pJvACat6

Just like pictures can be faked, mining addresses can be rented for premium price. I remember people purchasing freshly mined bitcoins on this forum only. Then I did not understand the reason, but now I do. Unless the miner is at your location, everyone is same. There is NO DIFFERENCE between PB Mining and Cloudhashing whatsoever.

It's really not that simple.

To fake a picture all you need is a miner and a bit of photoshop wizardry.

To fake hashrate you need to find a company with several PH/s that is willing to support a ponzi scheme. Maintaining the illusion of a constant hashrate when you're buying newly mined coins daily is much easier said than done. The only company I know that is selling freshly minted coins in mass is Bitfury, but they have integrity and want to see bitcoin succeed instead of plagued with scams.

If you were going to go through all the trouble of paying a premium for freshly mined coins every day for months on end, you might as well just buy the hashingpower from Bitfury/whatever company because it would be cheaper, less hassle, and less risk to actually mine the coins.

Freshly mined coins are not really ideal for cloudmining ponzi schemes, but they are great for money laundering. Besides, PBmining almost never pays out "mining earnings" that originate from recently mined coins so it appears it's not even necessary to pay a premium for newly mined coins.

[notlist3d]

New cloudmining offering AMHash has disclosed their mining addresses:

5.There are 3 payment addresses of our hashrate:
  1HtUGfbDcMzTeHWx2Dbgnhc6kYnj1Hp24i
  1ERszMSERwHNR9Xty73KZXpsg1jjBXWcHh
  1K7AuMJwVfZg3UVjinnjT2HzG4pJvACat6

Just like pictures can be faked, mining addresses can be rented for premium price. I remember people purchasing freshly mined bitcoins on this forum only. Then I did not understand the reason, but now I do. Unless the miner is at your location, everyone is same. There is NO DIFFERENCE between PB Mining and Cloudhashing whatsoever.

It's really not that simple.

To fake a picture all you need is a miner and a bit of photoshop wizardry.

To fake hashrate you need to find a company with several PH/s that is willing to support a ponzi scheme. Maintaining the illusion of a constant hashrate when you're buying newly mined coins daily is much easier said than done. The only company I know that is selling freshly minted coins in mass is Bitfury, but they have integrity and want to see bitcoin succeed instead of plagued with scams.

If you were going to go through all the trouble of paying a premium for freshly mined coins every day for months on end, you might as well just buy the hashingpower from Bitfury/whatever company because it would be cheaper, less hassle, and less risk to actually mine the coins.

Freshly mined coins are not really ideal for cloudmining ponzi schemes, but they are great for money laundering. Besides, PBmining almost never pays out "mining earnings" that originate from recently mined coins so it appears it's not even necessary to pay a premium for newly mined coins.

I agree.  Although I still like to see a picture photoshop or not, it makes me feel safer. I stick more to hardware the clouds.  So many companies have went down scam lane with just renderings.  At least with a good quality photo it adds one more hurdle.

Miningrigrentals has around 2000 T worth of SHA power, Leasesrig maybe 50-100 TH, betarigs 400 TH.  So it would be VERY time and money consuming but 2600 or so T could be gotten if you corner the market.  I agree its not  very likely though.

[FattyMcButterpants]

Gawminers, LTCgear and PBmining are the noticeable absentees. I am almost sure that LTCgear is a short term ponzi, don't see it giving such a huge returns for a long time.

Both GAW and PBmining are spending a large amount of money in advertising and have been in business for a long time (while active on this forum). I would argue that if either of these companies were a ponzi they would have collapsed by now. LTCgear has has an online presence for <1 year however not on this forum (I think), plus people who are vouching for them always have an affiliate link which is also suspicious.

You should also be able to trace any payouts received through a short number of "hops" through the blockchain to find a coinbase TX of a found block

[sumantso]

GAW for example is leasing their hash, so if they are mining themselves it's just with a fraction of their total power. They showed a lot of pictures and recently bought a lot of hardware from Bitmain, which was confirmed by the seller.

Pictures are not proof because there are many ways they can be faked.

Bitmain confirming their 5PH/s purchase is a step in the right direction but still requires trust in a third party. (although Bitmain is pretty trustworthy)

I have no doubt that GAW will let everyone know their mining address as soon as they get the 5 PH/s online.

Gawminers, LTCgear and PBmining are the noticeable absentees. I am almost sure that LTCgear is a short term ponzi, don't see it giving such a huge returns for a long time.

Both GAW and PBmining are spending a large amount of money in advertising and have been in business for a long time (while active on this forum). I would argue that if either of these companies were a ponzi they would have collapsed by now. LTCgear has has an online presence for <1 year however not on this forum (I think), plus people who are vouching for them always have an affiliate link which is also suspicious.

You should also be able to trace any payouts received through a short number of "hops" through the blockchain to find a coinbase TX of a found block

GAWminer may actually turn out to be legit after all. I was quite convinced it was a ponzi.

PBmining has been around but they have ramped up their marketing and started offering big discounts. Either they are going big or this is the endgame.

LTCgear is extremely suspicious.

[sumantso]

New cloudmining offering AMHash has disclosed their mining addresses:

5.There are 3 payment addresses of our hashrate:
  1HtUGfbDcMzTeHWx2Dbgnhc6kYnj1Hp24i
  1ERszMSERwHNR9Xty73KZXpsg1jjBXWcHh
  1K7AuMJwVfZg3UVjinnjT2HzG4pJvACat6

Just like pictures can be faked, mining addresses can be rented for premium price. I remember people purchasing freshly mined bitcoins on this forum only. Then I did not understand the reason, but now I do. Unless the miner is at your location, everyone is same. There is NO DIFFERENCE between PB Mining and Cloudhashing whatsoever.

ASICMINER has been around for long, and their rates are quite sensible. I would be inclined to trust in this one but not invest in it (poor RoI).

[jimmothy]

Both GAW and PBmining are spending a large amount of money in advertising and have been in business for a long time (while active on this forum). I would argue that if either of these companies were a ponzi they would have collapsed by now.

GAW's cloudmining service has only been around for a month or two.

PBmining has been around for much longer but because they have had a steady increase in new investments, they could have easily survived this long being a ponzi.

Look at the "sent" graph to see how their "hashrate" has steadily increased over the past year: https://www.blocktrail.com/address/1Payday1sm5wGqtatKscfXnxARZ2B2MF3z

You should also be able to trace any payouts received through a short number of "hops" through the blockchain to find a coinbase TX of a found block

If you can trace the BTC payments back to recently mined blocks, I would consider it being open about their mining address. The problem is that it's impossible for companies like GAW or PBmining.

GAW is mining altcoins and converting them to btc. (btc would originate from whoever is buying the altcoins)

PBmining on the other hand implemented a coin mixer specifically to hide the source of their payments. Before implementing the coin mixer they were sending btc directly from new payments to the mining payout fund.

See here:

https://bitiodine.net/a2a/1BaconNYiSsZoq79K9LuEEp7RyGjKuwodJ/1Payday1sm5wGqtatKscfXnxARZ2B2MF3z
https://bitiodine.net/a2a/1HammmJ8zaGVHicRxTPRDMdfGCujrfZc8y/1Payday1sm5wGqtatKscfXnxARZ2B2MF3z
https://bitiodine.net/a2a/1PBackwRV1rHvDpqkYRTR9WCEEEMEwuSrJ/1Payday1sm5wGqtatKscfXnxARZ2B2MF3z
https://bitiodine.net/a2a/1Bacon6DCo11jrXMvm39sgTxhRG9bRjQWy/1Payday1sm5wGqtatKscfXnxARZ2B2MF3z
https://bitiodine.net/a2a/1FeedQtUArhfWVGuVH13dX8dbf5XqqqJSq/1Payday1sm5wGqtatKscfXnxARZ2B2MF3z
https://bitiodine.net/a2a/1Porky8h4XMoM1RbtTHe7ZpPAe7DpE79Hb/1Payday1sm5wGqtatKscfXnxARZ2B2MF3z
https://bitiodine.net/a2a/1BaconH9L8CQ9eGJkjDqN28Pw8v8Rzbp6f/1Payday1sm5wGqtatKscfXnxARZ2B2MF3z
https://bitiodine.net/a2a/1Bacont6QxTg3SxfqEG5gfiqefGMCeSNqs/1Payday1sm5wGqtatKscfXnxARZ2B2MF3z
https://bitiodine.net/a2a/1PiGgYR36C3VdCP9k2zQLrp1ZvDQNdQsre/1Payday1sm5wGqtatKscfXnxARZ2B2MF3z
https://bitiodine.net/a2a/1BaconV3vARfyvKDMCbfZ5rE6acstH6GFV/1Payday1sm5wGqtatKscfXnxARZ2B2MF3z
https://bitiodine.net/a2a/1PorkyB6s8Tb7JU8QiBpreD159iW6aaSWt/1Payday1sm5wGqtatKscfXnxARZ2B2MF3z

[Angelina Jolie]

Both GAW and PBmining are spending a large amount of money in advertising and have been in business for a long time (while active on this forum). I would argue that if either of these companies were a ponzi they would have collapsed by now.

GAW's cloudmining service has only been around for a month or two.

PBmining has been around for much longer but because they have had a steady increase in new investments, they could have easily survived this long being a ponzi.

Look at the "sent" graph to see how their "hashrate" has steadily increased over the past year: https://www.blocktrail.com/address/1Payday1sm5wGqtatKscfXnxARZ2B2MF3z

You should also be able to trace any payouts received through a short number of "hops" through the blockchain to find a coinbase TX of a found block

If you can trace the BTC payments back to recently mined blocks, I would consider it being open about their mining address. The problem is that it's impossible for companies like GAW or PBmining.

GAW is mining altcoins and converting them to btc. (btc would originate from whoever is buying the altcoins)

PBmining on the other hand implemented a coin mixer specifically to hide the source of their payments. Before implementing the coin mixer they were sending btc directly from new payments to the mining payout fund.

See here:

https://bitiodine.net/a2a/1BaconNYiSsZoq79K9LuEEp7RyGjKuwodJ/1Payday1sm5wGqtatKscfXnxARZ2B2MF3z
https://bitiodine.net/a2a/1HammmJ8zaGVHicRxTPRDMdfGCujrfZc8y/1Payday1sm5wGqtatKscfXnxARZ2B2MF3z
https://bitiodine.net/a2a/1PBackwRV1rHvDpqkYRTR9WCEEEMEwuSrJ/1Payday1sm5wGqtatKscfXnxARZ2B2MF3z
https://bitiodine.net/a2a/1Bacon6DCo11jrXMvm39sgTxhRG9bRjQWy/1Payday1sm5wGqtatKscfXnxARZ2B2MF3z
https://bitiodine.net/a2a/1FeedQtUArhfWVGuVH13dX8dbf5XqqqJSq/1Payday1sm5wGqtatKscfXnxARZ2B2MF3z
https://bitiodine.net/a2a/1Porky8h4XMoM1RbtTHe7ZpPAe7DpE79Hb/1Payday1sm5wGqtatKscfXnxARZ2B2MF3z
https://bitiodine.net/a2a/1BaconH9L8CQ9eGJkjDqN28Pw8v8Rzbp6f/1Payday1sm5wGqtatKscfXnxARZ2B2MF3z
https://bitiodine.net/a2a/1Bacont6QxTg3SxfqEG5gfiqefGMCeSNqs/1Payday1sm5wGqtatKscfXnxARZ2B2MF3z
https://bitiodine.net/a2a/1PiGgYR36C3VdCP9k2zQLrp1ZvDQNdQsre/1Payday1sm5wGqtatKscfXnxARZ2B2MF3z
https://bitiodine.net/a2a/1BaconV3vARfyvKDMCbfZ5rE6acstH6GFV/1Payday1sm5wGqtatKscfXnxARZ2B2MF3z
https://bitiodine.net/a2a/1PorkyB6s8Tb7JU8QiBpreD159iW6aaSWt/1Payday1sm5wGqtatKscfXnxARZ2B2MF3z

I like this bitiodine site. Is that yours ? Are u Michele Spagnuolo ?

[jimmothy]

I like this bitiodine site. Is that yours ? Are u Michele Spagnuolo ?

Nah, but I agree it is a nice website.

Following btc using a blockchain explorer can be tedious.

[FattyMcButterpants]

Both GAW and PBmining are spending a large amount of money in advertising and have been in business for a long time (while active on this forum). I would argue that if either of these companies were a ponzi they would have collapsed by now.

GAW's cloudmining service has only been around for a month or two.

PBmining has been around for much longer but because they have had a steady increase in new investments, they could have easily survived this long being a ponzi.

Look at the "sent" graph to see how their "hashrate" has steadily increased over the past year: https://www.blocktrail.com/address/1Payday1sm5wGqtatKscfXnxARZ2B2MF3z

You should also be able to trace any payouts received through a short number of "hops" through the blockchain to find a coinbase TX of a found block

If you can trace the BTC payments back to recently mined blocks, I would consider it being open about their mining address. The problem is that it's impossible for companies like GAW or PBmining.

GAW is mining altcoins and converting them to btc. (btc would originate from whoever is buying the altcoins)

PBmining on the other hand implemented a coin mixer specifically to hide the source of their payments. Before implementing the coin mixer they were sending btc directly from new payments to the mining payout fund.

See here:

https://bitiodine.net/a2a/1BaconNYiSsZoq79K9LuEEp7RyGjKuwodJ/1Payday1sm5wGqtatKscfXnxARZ2B2MF3z
https://bitiodine.net/a2a/1HammmJ8zaGVHicRxTPRDMdfGCujrfZc8y/1Payday1sm5wGqtatKscfXnxARZ2B2MF3z
https://bitiodine.net/a2a/1PBackwRV1rHvDpqkYRTR9WCEEEMEwuSrJ/1Payday1sm5wGqtatKscfXnxARZ2B2MF3z
https://bitiodine.net/a2a/1Bacon6DCo11jrXMvm39sgTxhRG9bRjQWy/1Payday1sm5wGqtatKscfXnxARZ2B2MF3z
https://bitiodine.net/a2a/1FeedQtUArhfWVGuVH13dX8dbf5XqqqJSq/1Payday1sm5wGqtatKscfXnxARZ2B2MF3z
https://bitiodine.net/a2a/1Porky8h4XMoM1RbtTHe7ZpPAe7DpE79Hb/1Payday1sm5wGqtatKscfXnxARZ2B2MF3z
https://bitiodine.net/a2a/1BaconH9L8CQ9eGJkjDqN28Pw8v8Rzbp6f/1Payday1sm5wGqtatKscfXnxARZ2B2MF3z
https://bitiodine.net/a2a/1Bacont6QxTg3SxfqEG5gfiqefGMCeSNqs/1Payday1sm5wGqtatKscfXnxARZ2B2MF3z
https://bitiodine.net/a2a/1PiGgYR36C3VdCP9k2zQLrp1ZvDQNdQsre/1Payday1sm5wGqtatKscfXnxARZ2B2MF3z
https://bitiodine.net/a2a/1BaconV3vARfyvKDMCbfZ5rE6acstH6GFV/1Payday1sm5wGqtatKscfXnxARZ2B2MF3z
https://bitiodine.net/a2a/1PorkyB6s8Tb7JU8QiBpreD159iW6aaSWt/1Payday1sm5wGqtatKscfXnxARZ2B2MF3z

Gaw has been in the cloud mining business for a while but has only recently started offering bitcoin cloud mining recently. Plus they spend a good amount of money on marketing and have a professional seeming operation. It was also recently confirmed that they placed an order for 1 PH/s worth of miners from (I think it was) bitmantech.

I vaguely remember reading somewhere that pbmining controlled ~10% of the network hashrate and that their pool was represented on blockchain.info/pools, however I may be mistaken about this. If they are actually employing a mixer to fund their payouts, then I would consider it very shady, however it is possible they are using the bitcoin from the sales of their cloud mining services to payout their users while keeping the mined bitcoin in other, separate addresses.

I think it would make cloud companies even more trustworthy if they allowed users to direct their purchased mining contracts to a pool of their choice (similar to how leaserig operates). This would allow users to be able to truly verify that they have purchased mining capacity as they can more or less independently verify as such.

[jimmothy]

Gaw has been in the cloud mining business for a while but has only recently started offering bitcoin cloud mining recently.

Did they offer cloudmining before hashlets? Hashlets have only been around for ~2 months.

I vaguely remember reading somewhere that pbmining controlled ~10% of the network hashrate and that their pool was represented on blockchain.info/pools, however I may be mistaken about this.

You are mistaken. Many have tried, but nobody could attribute a mining address to PBmining.

I think it would make cloud companies even more trustworthy if they allowed users to direct their purchased mining contracts to a pool of their choice (similar to how leaserig operates). This would allow users to be able to truly verify that they have purchased mining capacity as they can more or less independently verify as such.

I agree that would be the best. That would eliminate the need for proof via their mining address because you would be able prove it using your own address.

[wunkbone]

I think it would make cloud companies even more trustworthy if they allowed users to direct their purchased mining contracts to a pool of their choice (similar to how leaserig operates). This would allow users to be able to truly verify that they have purchased mining capacity as they can more or less independently verify as such.

I agree that would be the best. That would eliminate the need for proof via their mining address because you would be able prove it using your own address.

I really don't understand why any cloud mining services offer this. I don't think it would cost very much for a cloud mining company to point incremental hashrates at the pool of their users' choice, and this would probably cause people to be much less skeptical about if the mining actually exists or not, which would allow them to sell more mining capacity at likely higher prices.   

[RussianRaibow]

New cloudmining offering AMHash has disclosed their mining addresses:

5.There are 3 payment addresses of our hashrate:
  1HtUGfbDcMzTeHWx2Dbgnhc6kYnj1Hp24i
  1ERszMSERwHNR9Xty73KZXpsg1jjBXWcHh
  1K7AuMJwVfZg3UVjinnjT2HzG4pJvACat6

Just like pictures can be faked, mining addresses can be rented for premium price. I remember people purchasing freshly mined bitcoins on this forum only. Then I did not understand the reason, but now I do. Unless the miner is at your location, everyone is same. There is NO DIFFERENCE between PB Mining and Cloudhashing whatsoever.

It's really not that simple.

To fake a picture all you need is a miner and a bit of photoshop wizardry.

To fake hashrate you need to find a company with several PH/s that is willing to support a ponzi scheme. Maintaining the illusion of a constant hashrate when you're buying newly mined coins daily is much easier said than done. The only company I know that is selling freshly minted coins in mass is Bitfury, but they have integrity and want to see bitcoin succeed instead of plagued with scams.

If you were going to go through all the trouble of paying a premium for freshly mined coins every day for months on end, you might as well just buy the hashingpower from Bitfury/whatever company because it would be cheaper, less hassle, and less risk to actually mine the coins.

Freshly mined coins are not really ideal for cloudmining ponzi schemes, but they are great for money laundering. Besides, PBmining almost never pays out "mining earnings" that originate from recently mined coins so it appears it's not even necessary to pay a premium for newly mined coins.

I can see u r affectionate towards BitFury and angry at PB Mining. Moreover, one does not need to continue maintaining the same address to show they are mining. They can simply rent an address for a few days and show it as 'proof' for months. Regarding 'unknown entity', its a vague concept in bitcoin world. What will u do if CEX goes out of business tomorrow ? What u have been able to do to MK after the Mt. Gox fiasco. Everyone is always at risk and the concept of vague certainty should be abolished. While choosing the service I'll simply go through the rate chart and this is what I have now...

1. https://cex.io/ => 0.00268387 BTC/GHS

2. http://pbmining.com/ => 0.0021 BTC/GHS

3. http://www.cloudmining.website/ => 0.001 BTC/GHS