This offsite thread can use some attention

[Red]

I don't have any reason to mock you, but I do wonder why you find nationality such an important factor.

Sub-groups are a huge overall benefit to mankind. They allow the world as a whole to try many different solutions to any given problem. It is an "evolutionary" solution that is incredibly undervalued by some other sub-groups. Namely Venus/Zeitgeist type groups that think the world would be much better if everyone would just get along by doing things the way our group wants them to. You never here these types say, the world would be much better if I just did what that group wants me to.

I highly value the existence of sub-groups they make the world a much better place. I like to go and visit other sub-groups learn about them and borrow/steal their good ideas. I also like to leave their bad ideas behind.

But just because the existence of different sub-groups in an absolute good, does not imply that every sub-group is equally good, or espouses equally valid opinions. It is very important to be able to compare and contrast groups, so we can borrow/share good ideas and leave behind the poor ones.

Nationalities are important sub-groups to use in examples because many people can understand your point in few words. It is completely accurate in many cases to say, "Americans are so..." because we are. You know that, and sometimes we even know it. :-) 

It should go without saying that, there exist Americans that are not... but sometimes humor does not translate well between different languages. On a forum it is always good to point out when you are deliberately being silly.

In my case, I was referring to a really old joke that many Europeans seem to know. It goes in one variation:

"Heaven is where the police are English, the cooks are French, the engineers are German, the lovers are Italian, and everything is organized by the Swiss.

In Hell, the police are German, the cooks are English, the engineers are French, the lovers are Swiss, and everything is organized by the Italians."

Hence my reference to their replacing perceived bad French engineering with perceived good German engineering. At the expense of people worrying about German policing.

Cheers!

[1714989152]

1714989152

[1714989152]

1714989152

[1714989152]

1714989152

[1714989152]

1714989152

[ichi]

I don't have any reason to mock you, but I do wonder why you find nationality such an important factor.

Hetalia fan?

[ichi]

GSF plans on being one of the few global entities that survives the coming collapse, and the catalyst for rebuilding.  That's my impression, anyway.

I think I'll copy all his stuff and declare myself sovereign of North America. That way in the post collapse aftermath, if people are stupid enough to accept him as a global leader, I'll have equal claim!

No, not "leader."  "Market maker", perhaps (and that's me talking).

Also, these folks have been working on this for decades.  They're preparing to survive the collapse of the internet, as we know it.  For fictionalized accounts, read Cryptonomicon and Halting State, for example.

[RHorning]

I don't have any reason to mock you, but I do wonder why you find nationality such an important factor.

Sub-groups are a huge overall benefit to mankind. They allow the world as a whole to try many different solutions to any given problem. It is an "evolutionary" solution that is incredibly undervalued by some other sub-groups. Namely Venus/Zeitgeist type groups that think the world would be much better if everyone would just get along by doing things the way our group wants them to. You never here these types say, the world would be much better if I just did what that group wants me to.

I highly value the existence of sub-groups they make the world a much better place. I like to go and visit other sub-groups learn about them and borrow/steal their good ideas. I also like to leave their bad ideas behind.

But just because the existence of different sub-groups in an absolute good, does not imply that every sub-group is equally good, or espouses equally valid opinions. It is very important to be able to compare and contrast groups, so we can borrow/share good ideas and leave behind the poor ones.

The real trick is what to do when a mob mentality strikes and those in a sub-group are intolerant of others what espouse a very different viewpoint.  I was recently kicked out of discussion forum because I dared to challenge the "leadership" of the site (not really the site owner... as it was a political activism site) because they were in the midst of a massive purge of the "membership".  It should have said something that over half of the active members were booted from the site, so I clearly wasn't the only one.

I agree that sub-groups with very different opinions ought to be tolerated and encouraged so far as the fact that no one single person has all of the answers to fix the problems of this world.  Really crazy and far out ideas perhaps on occasion can turn out to be the best solutions... I've seen it happen too.  In the "marketplace" of ideas, it is healthy to strive for consensus, but allow the possibility that perhaps something better could still pop up.

I, too, sometimes read stuff from groups I absolutely don't agree with.  In some ways this can be considered "opposition research", but generally for me it is also simply trying to understand an opposing viewpoint as well.  And on a rare occasion I am persuaded to change my opinion on a topic and admit that I"m wrong.  I'm at least willing to keep an open mind so far as to at least allow for the possibility.

The quest for Utopia is an ancient one, and there have even been organized groups of various kinds (both religious and secular) with rather large numbers of members that have been around for at least the past 1000 years.  Massachusetts is a good example where it was established explicitly by a dreamy-eyed vision of the future where people were willing to put their money where their mouth was and move several thousand miles to create another experiment in Utopia.  That the people living in that place now have almost no common beliefs with the original founders is besides the point.  I certainly don't think you will find too many Puritans attending Harvard or MIT or sitting on the city council in Boston.  Still, you can't dispute that the experiment in New England was at least a partial success and it did make a difference in terms of world history.

I would love to see at least some of these group try to accomplish their goals,  even if I think they are raving lunatics and out of touch with reality.  An experiment tried and failed is better than an experiment that is never tried at all.  Social experiments tend to be even more interesting as there is rarely a "best" answer in the first place.

[MoonShadow]

 An experiment tried and failed is better than an experiment that is never tried at all.  

Not always.  Sometimes the cost to the greater society is harsh from an experiment gone wrong.  Two such examples would be Easter Island, which destroyed itself and erased any possibilites of the rest of humanity from learning from their mistakes along the way; and the Wiemar Republic, which destroyed itself and begot a society with a very destructive meme that nearly infected all of Europe and Asia.

And it doesn't appear to me that humanity learned all that much from the Wiemar Republic, either; since we appear to be starting down their same path again in the modern world.

[MoonShadow]

GSF plans on being one of the few global entities that survives the coming collapse, and the catalyst for rebuilding.  That's my impression, anyway.

I think I'll copy all his stuff and declare myself sovereign of North America. That way in the post collapse aftermath, if people are stupid enough to accept him as a global leader, I'll have equal claim!

No, not "leader."  "Market maker", perhaps (and that's me talking).

Also, these folks have been working on this for decades.  They're preparing to survive the collapse of the internet, as we know it.  For fictionalized accounts, read Cryptonomicon and Halting State, for example.

I've never read Halting State, but I have read Cryptonomicon.  But I don't get the reference.  Cryptonomicon was not about surviving a future.  Are you sure that, The Diamond Age wouldn't be a better reference?  That entire book was about a future nearly devoid of involutary governments, but instead a set of cultures in balance and intertrading with a cryptocurrency that could not be back traced across the Internet.

They are both great books, BTW.  Neil Stevenson is one hell of an author.

[Anonymous]

http://vimeo.com/9968399

This video is interesting.It explains how a community can take steps toward claiming back some self government.

[ichi]

I've never read Halting State, but I have read Cryptonomicon.  But I don't get the reference.  Cryptonomicon was not about surviving a future. ...

True.  It's about creating a gold-based cryptocurrency in a friendly country.  That's relevant to GSF in Africa (albeit not a country) and Laissez-Faire City in Costa Rica (back in the 1990s).

... Are you sure that, The Diamond Age wouldn't be a better reference?  That entire book was about a future nearly devoid of involutary governments, but instead a set of cultures in balance and intertrading with a cryptocurrency that could not be back traced across the Internet.

Thanks, I haven't read that.  I will.

They are both great books, BTW.  Neil Stevenson is one hell of an author.

Indeed.  Snow Crash is one of my favorites.  Software and pizza delivery 

And BTW, I also highly recommend True Names.

[ledskof]

I don't have any reason to mock you, but I do wonder why you find nationality such an important factor.

Hetalia fan?

never heard of that

I don't have any reason to mock you, but I do wonder why you find nationality such an important factor.

Sub-groups are a huge overall benefit to mankind. They allow the world as a whole to try many different solutions to any given problem. It is an "evolutionary" solution that is incredibly undervalued by some other sub-groups. Namely Venus/Zeitgeist type groups that think the world would be much better if everyone would just get along by doing things the way our group wants them to. You never here these types say, the world would be much better if I just did what that group wants me to.

I highly value the existence of sub-groups they make the world a much better place. I like to go and visit other sub-groups learn about them and borrow/steal their good ideas. I also like to leave their bad ideas behind.

But just because the existence of different sub-groups in an absolute good, does not imply that every sub-group is equally good, or espouses equally valid opinions. It is very important to be able to compare and contrast groups, so we can borrow/share good ideas and leave behind the poor ones.

Nationalities are important sub-groups to use in examples because many people can understand your point in few words. It is completely accurate in many cases to say, "Americans are so..." because we are. You know that, and sometimes we even know it. :-) 

It should go without saying that, there exist Americans that are not... but sometimes humor does not translate well between different languages. On a forum it is always good to point out when you are deliberately being silly.

In my case, I was referring to a really old joke that many Europeans seem to know. It goes in one variation:

"Heaven is where the police are English, the cooks are French, the engineers are German, the lovers are Italian, and everything is organized by the Swiss.

In Hell, the police are German, the cooks are English, the engineers are French, the lovers are Swiss, and everything is organized by the Italians."

Hence my reference to their replacing perceived bad French engineering with perceived good German engineering. At the expense of people worrying about German policing.

Cheers!

The way I heard that joke was, in heaven the british great you, the french cook, the italians provide the entertainment, and the germans keep things running smoothly.  And in hell, the french greet you, the british cook, the germans provide the entertainment, and the italians keep things running smoothly.  I had never heard it with the addition of the swiss.

[Anonymous]

“Permit me to issue and control the money of a nation and I care not who makes the laws.” Mayer Amschel Rothschild, founder of the Rothschild international Banking Dynasty, 1790

I think this sums it up and why bitcoins should steer away from calling itself "money".

[RHorning]

 An experiment tried and failed is better than an experiment that is never tried at all.  

Not always.  Sometimes the cost to the greater society is harsh from an experiment gone wrong.  Two such examples would be Easter Island, which destroyed itself and erased any possibilites of the rest of humanity from learning from their mistakes along the way; and the Wiemar Republic, which destroyed itself and begot a society with a very destructive meme that nearly infected all of Europe and Asia.

And it doesn't appear to me that humanity learned all that much from the Wiemar Republic, either; since we appear to be starting down their same path again in the modern world.

I lived in Brazil during the mid-1980's.... and it was as bad as the Wiemar Republic or even worse with a relative national debt (to national GDP) owed to foreign countries as bad or worse than what America is currently facing.  I keep hoping that America and/or Europe isn't going to discover runaway inflation like I experienced in Brazil or all of the screwy government programs to try and keep prices under control with the "Plano Cruzado".  The amazing thing would be to see how Brazil pulled it self out of that quagmire.... which was decidedly a different approach than what the Wiemar Republic used in a similar situation.  Of course some would say Brazil pulled it off by sacrificing the rain forests of the Amazon River basin, but that is something for another thread.

As for Easter Island, since we are talking about it I would say humanity has at least been able to learn at least something from that experiment.  Using other historical analogies, England faced a very similar kind of crisis in term of running out of wood to sustain its industries, but there was one thing that ended up saving England from a similar fate (or super-charging the engine of destruction.... you can argue the difference if you like):  Coal from Wales and south-western England.  That in turn sparked the Industrial Revolution which is still working its way throughout the world.  Nuclear energy has looked like it might be the "solution" to resolve the problems of burning coal, but there are decidedly some problems with that alternative to save the next step.

Here are counter examples to the two that you mention, but at the same time the social experiments were performed and a bit of a warning to mankind is also in those examples too.  With the current world economic crisis, is the result going to be something more like the end of the Wiemar Republic of the 1930's or the end of the Brazilian military dictatorship of the 1990's?  The consistent thing to learn from both lessons is that the governments which caused the crisis (speaking of governments like the American government rather than parliamentary governments... although that may also happen) usually fall apart in extremely stressful economic environments.  This is a sobering thing to think about.

The problem with the solution to the Wiemar Republic problems is that the resulting government was intolerant of other viewpoints to the point of genocide and they were willing to extend that intolerance world-wide.  I hope I haven't invoked Godwin's Law just now either.  Those guys usually have a funny way of creeping into any conversation on the net eventually, don't they?

[MoonShadow]

 An experiment tried and failed is better than an experiment that is never tried at all.  

Not always.  Sometimes the cost to the greater society is harsh from an experiment gone wrong.  Two such examples would be Easter Island, which destroyed itself and erased any possibilites of the rest of humanity from learning from their mistakes along the way; and the Wiemar Republic, which destroyed itself and begot a society with a very destructive meme that nearly infected all of Europe and Asia.

And it doesn't appear to me that humanity learned all that much from the Wiemar Republic, either; since we appear to be starting down their same path again in the modern world.

I lived in Brazil during the mid-1980's.... and it was as bad as the Wiemar Republic or even worse with a relative national debt (to national GDP) owed to foreign countries as bad or worse than what America is currently facing.

Well, things sure have changed there.  Brazil is one of my final 'bug out' possibilities if things really get ugly here in the States.  I think that I would prefer Argentina, but sooner or later I'm going to have to pick a second language to *really* learn.

The consistent thing to learn from both lessons is that the governments which caused the crisis (speaking of governments like the American government rather than parliamentary governments... although that may also happen) usually fall apart in extremely stressful economic environments.  This is a sobering thing to think about.

Sobering?  Perhaps to some.  It's what I'm expecting.  Every few generations the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of patriots and tyrants, and that day is coming.  The real question is not if it will happen in my lifetime, but do I want to participate?  I'm beginning to think that I might be to old to be a captian of men by the time the thin veil of civility collapses.

The problem with the solution to the Wiemar Republic problems is that the resulting government was intolerant of other viewpoints to the point of genocide and they were willing to extend that intolerance world-wide.  I hope I haven't invoked Godwin's Law just now either.  Those guys usually have a funny way of creeping into any conversation on the net eventually, don't they?

They do, indeed.  I know of an actual German who seems to believe that Godwin's Law doesn't apply to himself, because he is German and would know better, and has actually stated it as such.  The problem is that the Third Reich is such a perfect, and widely studied in the Western nations, example of an entire culture going insane due to a shared dillusion that it's difficult to find as good an example that all readers can relate to.  Certainly there are other examples, but none both so widely shared and so close in human history.

[Anonymous]

 An experiment tried and failed is better than an experiment that is never tried at all.  

Not always.  Sometimes the cost to the greater society is harsh from an experiment gone wrong.  Two such examples would be Easter Island, which destroyed itself and erased any possibilites of the rest of humanity from learning from their mistakes along the way; and the Wiemar Republic, which destroyed itself and begot a society with a very destructive meme that nearly infected all of Europe and Asia.

And it doesn't appear to me that humanity learned all that much from the Wiemar Republic, either; since we appear to be starting down their same path again in the modern world.

I lived in Brazil during the mid-1980's.... and it was as bad as the Wiemar Republic or even worse with a relative national debt (to national GDP) owed to foreign countries as bad or worse than what America is currently facing.  I keep hoping that America and/or Europe isn't going to discover runaway inflation like I experienced in Brazil or all of the screwy government programs to try and keep prices under control with the "Plano Cruzado".  The amazing thing would be to see how Brazil pulled it self out of that quagmire.... which was decidedly a different approach than what the Wiemar Republic used in a similar situation.  Of course some would say Brazil pulled it off by sacrificing the rain forests of the Amazon River basin, but that is something for another thread.

As for Easter Island, since we are talking about it I would say humanity has at least been able to learn at least something from that experiment.  Using other historical analogies, England faced a very similar kind of crisis in term of running out of wood to sustain its industries, but there was one thing that ended up saving England from a similar fate (or super-charging the engine of destruction.... you can argue the difference if you like):  Coal from Wales and south-western England.  That in turn sparked the Industrial Revolution which is still working its way throughout the world.  Nuclear energy has looked like it might be the "solution" to resolve the problems of burning coal, but there are decidedly some problems with that alternative to save the next step.

Here are counter examples to the two that you mention, but at the same time the social experiments were performed and a bit of a warning to mankind is also in those examples too.  With the current world economic crisis, is the result going to be something more like the end of the Wiemar Republic of the 1930's or the end of the Brazilian military dictatorship of the 1990's?  The consistent thing to learn from both lessons is that the governments which caused the crisis (speaking of governments like the American government rather than parliamentary governments... although that may also happen) usually fall apart in extremely stressful economic environments.  This is a sobering thing to think about.

The problem with the solution to the Wiemar Republic problems is that the resulting government was intolerant of other viewpoints to the point of genocide and they were willing to extend that intolerance world-wide.  I hope I haven't invoked Godwin's Law just now either.  Those guys usually have a funny way of creeping into any conversation on the net eventually, don't they?

Some would say the pre-war German government was financed by industrialists in the US such as Henry Ford and Prescott Bush.The same people control things now so I think history will repeat itself.China likes to take over countries economically rather than militarily.

[fresno]

RHorning: "...some of the comments made on the Zeitgeist forum are some valid issues that need to be evaluated and have some legal defenses set up to protect against what will be an eventual legal challenge to Bitcoins and their usage as a form of payment for goods or services."

If Bitcoin is at all effective, these challenges will be inevitable. Might as well plan for it, we don't want to say something now that we will regret later.

The MadHatter: Those who use Bitcoins could join/create a separate society. They could, in theory, define money/wealth/currency/person/corporation/dog/cat/apple to mean whatever they want. They could even have their own dictionary that their society uses to interpret from. Those who use Bitcoins could join/create a separate society. They could, in theory, define money/wealth/currency/person/corporation/dog/cat/apple to mean whatever they want. They could even have their own dictionary that their society uses to interpret from.

Bitcoin is as close to sui generis as it gets. Let's make our own vocabulary while we're at it!

noagendamarket: “Permit me to issue and control the money of a nation and I care not who makes the laws.” Mayer Amschel Rothschild, founder of the Rothschild international Banking Dynasty, 1790

I think this sums it up and why bitcoins should steer away from calling itself "money".

And foolishly assuming a lot of other "establishment" jargon. It doesn't fit us, so let's not use it!

[Anonymous]

The MadHatter: Those who use Bitcoins could join/create a separate society. They could, in theory, define money/wealth/currency/person/corporation/dog/cat/apple to mean whatever they want. They could even have their own dictionary that their society uses to interpret from. Those who use Bitcoins could join/create a separate society. They could, in theory, define money/wealth/currency/person/corporation/dog/cat/apple to mean whatever they want. They could even have their own dictionary that their society uses to interpret from.

Bitcoin is as close to sui generis as it gets. Let's make our own vocabulary while we're at it!

Some people are following this model

PNNAC.ORG / The Canadian Free Man On The Land Society - they accept bitcoins as their preferred donation model.
http://www.pnnac.org/index.php?page=about


The Shire Society - A voluntary society based in New Hampshire that will accept online signatures soon.
http://forum.freekeene.com/index.php?board=30.0