This offsite thread can use some attention

[mizerydearia]

The Zeitgeist Movement - First truly decentralized, impossible to control, free currency

Perhaps it may be worthy to spread knowledge from within our community to other communities taht discuss about Bitcoin?  In some threads on other sites I have noticed that there is a lack of information or understanding as to how Bitcoin works.  Perhaps if any of us discover such a thread we can reference it here so that we can also add useful, insightful, factual knowledge/information to the discussion?

Feel free to reference other threads that are notable and i can include them in this first post.

[MoonShadow]

Considering that the website is ran by and frequented by people who don't believe in free trade, or even *money*, as a positive social order; I wouldn't think that any argument for bitcoins would be well received.  Other sites might prove to be worthy places to make such an effort, but not this one.

[FreeMoney]

Considering that the website is ran by and frequented by people who don't believe in free trade, or even *money*, as a positive social order; I wouldn't think that any argument for bitcoins would be well received.  Other sites might prove to be worthy places to make such an effort, but not this one.

Yeah, I went over there and it was ridiculous. Why did you think they'd be interested? They hate money, not just the way money is now.

[ichi]

Check out the Global Settlement Foundation's Public Notice.

[Willsway]

I am all for promoting bitcoin but I wish to offer some friendly critique about the post on the other forum. Through personal experience I have found attempting to promote something on other forums is a tricky business. One has to remember forum owners, moderators and users are generally very possessive creatures - they hate marketing or external sites, especially if it sounds like marketing.

There is nothing wrong with the article on the other forum, if it was published on a site which accepts articles. Within the context of a forum where everyone has a voice, and everyone has something to say, whether it is worth saying or not, one has to use more tact to push others in the direction you wish them to follow. On a forum or discussion group one has to use the one power open to you - the reader's opinion and ego. The readers in these media often want to say something, they don't like to be "preached" or "marketed" to.

The simple way to achieve this is to spark debate with a simple post like:
"I came across this open source project at www.bitcoin.org which seems interesting. I kinda like the fact it cuts out the middle man for micro payments. I wonder if it will work out and become a valid alternative payment system? What do you guys think?"

Now instead of having told them how great it is, they have been given the right to make up their own minds about it and tell you what they think. It really doesn't matter what they say then, because most who comment and even those who don't will visit the site to see for themselves instead of dismissing it out of hand because they disagree with your opinion; such as they have done with the posted article we are discussing. Either way bitcoin will win because many will visit, some will disagree, other will like it, but they all would have visited the official site. I've also found that allowing something like bitcoin to speak for itself in such forums creates less negative postings than stating your opinion as a fan and encourages a healthy debate because the posters don't feel they taking on a salesman.

Just my opinion

[Red]

Check out the Global Settlement Foundation's Public Notice.

I found that hilarious!

[fresno]

I like that, Willsway.

[Anonymous]

There are a few I have noticed or mentioned bitcoin in.

http://fr33agents.ning.com/group/fansofbitcoin

http://nhunderground.com/forum/index.php?topic=21116.15

http://bbs.freetalklive.com/index.php?topic=33875.0

[The Madhatter]

He should try to leave his politics out of business; or tone them down at the very least. The average layman will perceive him as insane. Would you trust a man that you perceived to be insane with your money? I certainly wouldn't.

That being said, a lot of the things about law that he has on his site are correct 'in theory'. He will find that the legal system will steam roll him with statues 'in practice'. Theory and practice are totally different things.

He claims to have a corporation in Panama setup to handle things. (Probably for bank wires.) Which means that he's under the jurisdiction of Panama. (Or at least the part of GSF that handles fiat currency is.) He has a clause that states that he has a backup trust to take over should a statute/act of Panama violate "The Law of the Land".

I see an obvious problem: Panama never had (or has) the "Law of the Land" (which is synonymous with Common Law, btw). Sure, you could just say that Panama must follow English Common Law. That is like telling the USA to adhere to the law system of Zimbabwe -- OR ELSE! (Or else *what*? Exactly!)

I don't know how he expects that to work. Perhaps he will just abandon the bank account/corporation and give Panama the finger when something goes wrong? Lol!

In the end he's holding your money and you have to trust him. After this current monetary system completely breaks down, trust will be the biggest issue. As long as we have electricity and some kind of a network Bitcoin is a better system for running our ledgers.

I 'know of' the man who runs GSF. He's not a bad guy. He's jaded and pissed off at the current monetary policies. But, who isn't?

Check out the Global Settlement Foundation's Public Notice.

I found that hilarious!

[FreeMoney]

http://nhunderground.com/forum/index.php?topic=21116.15

I responded to the post that thought that all coins were lost if the network split.

[Anonymous]

http://nhunderground.com/forum/index.php?topic=21116.15

I responded to the post that thought that all coins were lost if the network split.

Thanks.Some people may not understand that this particular situation is so unlikely to happen that it verges on impossible.That is the benefit of this project which lets everyone bring up possible weaknesses and allay fears.If people just read the first page of a thread without doing any further investigation it is hard to convince them differently than their first impression.

[RHorning]

I haven't been to all of the other sites mentioned on this thread, but I will say that it astounds me the decided lack of economics education and how some people have some downright silly notions of what money really is.  Yes, we've had some discussions along that line on this forum too, but it is especially interesting to see this discussion among a group that thinks the "Star Trek" future of money might happen where nobody really needs the stuff.

BTW, I think that is the one thing Gene Roddenberry got flat out wrong about the future of humanity, and something even the later Star Trek writers figured out when they introduced "gold-pressed latinum" and monetary economics into the script... or a "secondary currency" of Romulan ale.  Since he was writing fiction (or filming it as it may be), minor things like economics don't really need to be examined too closely.

I would love to see how a "money-less" society could ever function realistically in term of the allocation of scarce resources, shy of a dictatorial and centralized authority that controls those resources through sheer force of arms and arbitrary whim.  That is how I allocate chocolate in my household between my kids (if they aren't revolting and stealing it from me), but that is not a workable system that preserves liberties in the long run.  I even introduced a family currency precisely because of this situation... an experiment I'll have to describe elsewhere.

Getting back to the main point of this thread:  I agree that we need to "spread the word" and try to engage other communities (including "on-line" communities) to the concept of Bitcoins.  I have a notion to do just that elsewhere myself, including a couple places that I think may be much more receptive to the concept.  Caution needs to happen though to not try and change what may be core beliefs of the community, as is apparently the problem with this particular thread on thezeitgeistmovement.com.  It is also very useful not to get into fights with the moderators, as happened on this site.  The battle over the links (other than to Bitcoins itself) is a fight that doesn't necessarily have to be won to simply get the message out, even if I think the controversy is sort of silly in the first place.

It is also refreshing to me in terms of seeing the reactions of people with a very different mindset about Bitcoins in terms of what things ought to be considered when presenting the concept to new groups.  If anything, I consider this thread on the Zeitgeist forum to be something very productive to read even if there is some hostility there.  Know that even if the concept is being attacked, at least the concept is being brought up and people are at least looking at the idea.  That is a good thing and by far and away a better kind of thread than one which expresses the concept and then nobody else responds.

[fresno]

... a lot of the things about law that he has on his site are correct 'in theory'. He will find that the legal system will steam roll him with statues 'in practice'. Theory and practice are totally different things.

...He has a clause that states that he has a backup trust to take over should a statute/act of Panama violate "The Law of the Land".

I see an obvious problem: Panama never had (or has) the "Law of the Land" (which is synonymous with Common Law, btw). Sure, you could just say that Panama must follow English Common Law. That is like telling the USA to adhere to the law system of Zimbabwe -- OR ELSE! (Or else *what*? Exactly!)

YES! You are the first one I've found outside outside my little circle that understands law (and that includes lawyers), and the importance of the words we've been throwing around. "Cash, money, currency, dollars, worh," etc.

These words will come back to bite us, guaranteed.

The Zeitgeist movement seems kind of screwball to me, but I like some of their comments, especially those questioning our terminology.

[Red]

I 'know of' the man who runs GSF. He's not a bad guy. He's jaded and pissed off at the current monetary policies. But, who isn't?

He declared himself an equal sovereign to King John and wrote his own 300 plus page magna carta!

I don't think it took the English nearly 300 pages and they FORCED the king to sign it. I think he is a very silly silly man!

[RHorning]

YES! You are the first one I've found outside outside my little circle that understands law (and that includes lawyers), and the importance of the words we've been throwing around. "Cash, money, currency, dollars, worth," etc.

These words will come back to bite us, guaranteed.

The Zeitgeist movement seems kind of screwball to me, but I like some of their comments, especially those questioning our terminology.

I, too, am concerned about the legal implications of declaring "bitcoins" to be currency and how that will be interpreted in terms of anti-counterfeiting and "legal tender" laws.  Bitcoins is not asserting itself as a legal tender, but that is also one of its weaknesses as it can be seen as "competition" for a legal tender.

At the moment, Bitcoins is mostly an experimental computer project that has some people playing with virtual currencies on a minor basis.  In this regard it is no different that MMORPGs, and to regulators is being treated like that.  Still, some of the comments made on the Zeitgeist forum are some valid issues that need to be evaluated and have some legal defenses set up to protect against what will be an eventual legal challenge to Bitcoins and their usage as a form of payment for goods or services.

[The Madhatter]

Well, under Common Law you have societies. Societies can have their own language. (Ask the Law Society about their creation: legalese.)

Those who use Bitcoins could join/create a separate society. They could, in theory, define money/wealth/currency/person/corporation/dog/cat/apple to mean whatever they want. They could even have their own dictionary that their society uses to interpret from.

The problem lies in tacit consent and assumption. Those who are part of the "other" (de facto) society will assume that the words that are being used are already defined (and can be redefined) by them. They can also trick you into tacitly agreeing with their definitions as well. Or trick you into granting them jurisdiction in situations where they normally wouldn't have it.

The best way to operate is to not cause conflict. Those who flagrantly mail out nutty looking paperwork to government officials will find themselves under abnormal scrutiny.

I hide in plain sight. I keep my politics within my group of friends. I refuse to obey laws that enslave me. I live modestly and don't make extravagant purchases or flash money around. I try to stay off of the radars of the so-called authorities. I am completely free this way.

I hope the owner of GSF would do the same. I'm not saying that he should give up. He shouldn't. He should keep a lower profile, and tone his politics down. They have no place in business.

Cheers!

[ichi]

GSF plans on being one of the few global entities that survives the coming collapse, and the catalyst for rebuilding.  That's my impression, anyway.

[Red]

GSF plans on being one of the few global entities that survives the coming collapse, and the catalyst for rebuilding.  That's my impression, anyway.

I think I'll copy all his stuff and declare myself sovereign of North America. That way in the post collapse aftermath, if people are stupid enough to accept him as a global leader, I'll have equal claim!

[Red]

This is open mockery and is intended with humor rather than a direct attack on anyone!  :-)
-------
I read a bit on the Venus Project web site: "The Venus Project presents a bold, new direction for humanity that entails nothing less than the total redesign of our culture." It also mentions: "The Zeitgeist Movement is the activist arm of The Venus Project"

It is clear that Jacque Fresco the founder of the project thinks the world can't make due without him. However, the whole concept of redesigning the world based upon the musings of a Frenchman seems absurd. So even he seems to think its plausibility depends on it sounding a bit more German.

But really, nobody much cared for the last two times the German's decided to take humanity in a new direction! Not even the French!

--End Mockery!--------
(Yes, I know they are based in Florida and are stealing from Walt Disney, but thinking of this as an American concept just makes me sad.)

Feel free to mock me if you wish!

[ledskof]

I don't have any reason to mock you, but I do wonder why you find nationality such an important factor.