Tecshare Maliciously Abused The BitcoinTalk Trust System

[bl4kjaguar]

Should never leave negative feedback for personal reasons

Why is it that you refuse to prove that I am a thief?

Just find a definition of "insolvent" that involves "theft" and you can prove it instantly.

Otherwise it is just a personal vendetta.

 

[Vod]

Should never leave negative feedback for personal reasons

Why is it that you refuse to prove that I am a thief?

Just find a definition of "insolvent" that involves "theft" and you can prove it instantly.

Otherwise it is just a personal vendetta.

 

Thief.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=701592.msg8001343#msg8001343

Like I said, you want to engage me like a normal person, pay your debts.

[bl4kjaguar]

Should never leave negative feedback for personal reasons

Why is it that you refuse to prove that I am a thief?

Just find a definition of "insolvent" that involves "theft" and you can prove it instantly.

Otherwise it is just a personal vendetta.

 

Thief.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=701592.msg8001343#msg8001343

Like I said, you want to engage me like a normal person, pay your debts.

I just want you to prove that insolvency=theft. Is that too much to ask? I am working hard to repay ALL my creditors, it is not fair that I must suffer your accusation when it has no rational basis.

[Quickseller]

these:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=32469.msg9438249#msg9438249
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=844619.msg9437997#msg9437997
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=709278.msg9438300#msg9438300
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=35656.msg9438146#msg9438146

words

This has nothing to do with risk. He could choose to continue to try to harass me, and I could leave negative feedback again. It is the principal of the matter. He shouldn't have been doing what he was doing in the first place. He was provided many opportunities to leave or diffuse the situation, instead every step of the way he chose to escalate. I have already taken several steps to deescalate this situation. He has taken none.

I feel I have zero obligations to compromise with him in any way, especially since he has demonstrated he is unwilling to do so when offered. Instead he opted to dictate to me what he wants done. He has no leverage at this point. Regardless of this I am again stating I am open to deleting his feedback if he removes his posts in my op, locks this thread, and deletes me from his signature. He can learn to act like an adult or live with my feedback. Its his choice.

While I do agree with your logic, I do think my advice would result in a quick resolution to the matter. If that is not a priority for you then you really have no incentive to compromise.

I, like you, have a very big ego, probably to the point that it is a flaw. I will personally spend hours at work arguing that I am right, only to be overruled, and told that I am wrong but I will not be held accountable, only for me to say that I still think I am right and that I will decline such leitancy if I am not right.

I bring this up because I think you have a lot more to lose then he does. He can simply create (or buy) a new account to conduct trades on while you cannot (your account protects you from scams while a purchased account does not, his account does not protect him from  scams - you are protected from scams because you have the pleasure of being able to get your counter-party to send first so you can make sure you are not being scammed). Although both you and Vod have a large amount of positive trust, it appears that you conduct a lot more business on here then he does (he can correct me if I am wrong), so you should have very different points of views on your own trust/reputation.

[TECSHARE]

I think most people witnessing his behavior here will deem my actions appropriate. What is important when trading is people know I am not a thief, and my previous trust demonstrates that. You might write this off as being ego driven, but it has a very real effect on my ability to sell when people make a habit of this behavior. Instead of a marketplace thread it becomes a neckbeard herp derp party, at which point no one is even looking at the product any more. There is a lesson to be learned here, I am not about to quit when he is on the verge of understanding the price of his behavior. One way or another he is going to deal with the results of his actions. He can decide which way.

[Blazed]

At least you are trying to be the adult and offer a reasonable solution for this "drama". I mean he trolls then comes crying after provoking the entire thing? 

[BadBear]

This thread is disappointing on so many levels.

Default trust, which can be such a good tool, being used as leverage and "make people learn a lesson", and what's more disturbing is that not only are people willing to turn a blind eye, but that some are even defending it.  I always thought default trust was a fairly good thing, and the self regulating nature of the community would fix any aberrant behavior, but clearly not. Looks like default trust is turning into a good old boys network.

That said, if the community is really okay with feedback being used in this way, then maybe it's time to just change the feedback system to accommodate that, and how the ratings are calculated. A good start would be to change it to where you need to have multiple negatives before it has such an adverse effect on your rating. Maybe people further down on the trust list hierarchy could also have a lesser effect on ratings than those higher up. This would also make using a trust level of 3 more usable than it is now.  

Bottom line, if you can't trust someone like TECSHARE, who has conducted himself impeccably

Until now...

Should never leave negative feedback for personal reasons, esp if you are on the default trust list.

I got drunk one night and left negative feedback for someone based on a personal reason.  The next day the community ripped me a new one before I apologized and removed it.  I have no idea why the same thing is not happening here.

I'm also on default trust, but I don't personally reserve feedback for business transactions. You were made aware of this yesterday lol

That being said, I don't hand out feedback frivolously.  I don't believe TECSHARE does, either.

The trust system is just a way to publicly announce who you personally trust or distrust and why.  I'm sure TECSHARE is well aware that if he were to frivolously provide negative feedback to a whole bunch of people it would kill his reputation.  Accordingly, I perceive this as an anamoly.

It's not so much this "anomaly" that bothers me, it's the way it's been (not) handled. Can you really read tecshare's posts here, look at the attitude, and say that he should be in the default trust network? Being a good trader doesn't mean you are a good candidate for default trust anymore than being a good poster means you would make a good moderator (it doesn't).

Do you really think that this will be the last time he does something like this, especially with people defending it and saying it's okay?

Would you be okay with this "one time anomaly" if it were you on the receiving end?  

[TECSHARE]

I already made several attempts at deescalating this situation. I corrected my error with the feedback as well as provided him an opportunity to restore his trust rating. My request is not unreasonable. There was never a point when he at any time deescalated the situation. He got the trust rating for his actions, not just "to teach him a lesson". His lesson is he doesn't have to be marked if he can behave like an adult. Additionally I find it rather hilarious you have such an issue with my single use of the feedback system in this way when other users with FAR MORE trust than me on the default trust list leave negative feedback for people based only on hunches or personal opinions. Seriously some of them leave DOZENS of negatives for far less than this. Your complaints should be addressed to far more appropriate parties in your "good old boy network" instead of lobbing these accusations at easier targets like myself. I didn't want to do this, and I made several requests to the moderators for assistance and every one was ignored. I am frankly disgusted I have to defend myself for simply defending myself. HE HAS THE POWER TO CORRECT THIS - HE IS NOT A VICTIM - the only person he has to blame is himself.

[Vod]

Additionally I find it rather hilarious you have such an issue with my single use of the feedback system in this way when other users with FAR MORE trust than me on the default trust list leave negative feedback for people based only on hunches or personal opinions.

If you are posting about me, why haven't you let me know your feelings before this?  My hunches are always correct, and I try not to leave feedback based on personal opinion.  If I do, I welcome you to call me on it, or send me a PM.

[TECSHARE]

Additionally I find it rather hilarious you have such an issue with my single use of the feedback system in this way when other users with FAR MORE trust than me on the default trust list leave negative feedback for people based only on hunches or personal opinions.

If you are posting about me, why haven't you let me know your feelings before this?  My hunches are always correct, and I try not to leave feedback based on personal opinion.  If I do, I welcome you to call me on it, or send me a PM.

I don't disagree with this use of the trust system. IMO it naturally balances out. If you leave tons of negative feedback, people will take your feedback less seriously. I am simply pointing out that it is far easier to attack me rather than some one like you whom, it might be fair to say is in "the good old boys" network, and can push back against his accusations a lot more easily than myself. Basically I am a convenient person for him to make an example of over his frustrations of other people using the system this way far more often than I do, and with more trust. I would be happy to restore his trust to zeros, once he removes his slander from my OPs (his own form of attacking my reputation since he has no trust).

[Vod]

Additionally I find it rather hilarious you have such an issue with my single use of the feedback system in this way when other users with FAR MORE trust than me on the default trust list leave negative feedback for people based only on hunches or personal opinions.

If you are posting about me, why haven't you let me know your feelings before this?  My hunches are always correct, and I try not to leave feedback based on personal opinion.  If I do, I welcome you to call me on it, or send me a PM.

I don't disagree with this use of the trust system. IMO it naturally balances out. If you leave tons of negative feedback, people will take your feedback less seriously. I am simply pointing out that it is far easier to attack me rather than some one like you whom, it might be fair to say is in "the good old boys" network, and can push back against his accusations a lot more easily than myself. Basically I am a convenient person for him to make an example of over his frustrations of other people using the system this way far more often than I do, and with more trust.

Badbear doesn't need to "attack" me - he can simply and quietly untrust me and all my power goes away, as I am not at the root of the trust system.  He is, and he trusts me at level 2.  Believe it or not, Badbear and I communicate less than once a month, and we certainly don't collaborate on our trust.

I hope you'll call me out anytime you see me leaving feedback you deem to be personal.  I do leave a lot of negative feedback, but that's because there are a lot of scammers.  I HOPE people don't view my feedback as less truthful because I leave a lot of it.  

[TECSHARE]

Additionally I find it rather hilarious you have such an issue with my single use of the feedback system in this way when other users with FAR MORE trust than me on the default trust list leave negative feedback for people based only on hunches or personal opinions.

If you are posting about me, why haven't you let me know your feelings before this?  My hunches are always correct, and I try not to leave feedback based on personal opinion.  If I do, I welcome you to call me on it, or send me a PM.

I don't disagree with this use of the trust system. IMO it naturally balances out. If you leave tons of negative feedback, people will take your feedback less seriously. I am simply pointing out that it is far easier to attack me rather than some one like you whom, it might be fair to say is in "the good old boys" network, and can push back against his accusations a lot more easily than myself. Basically I am a convenient person for him to make an example of over his frustrations of other people using the system this way far more often than I do, and with more trust.

Badbear doesn't need to "attack" me - he can simply and quietly untrust me and all my power goes away, as I am not at the root of the trust system.  He is, and he trusts me at level 2.

I hope you'll call me out anytime you see me leaving feedback you deem to be personal.  I do leave a lot of negative feedback, but that's because there are a lot of scammers.  I HOPE people don't view my feedback as less truthful because I leave a lot of it.  

You guys keep calling this "personal", but how is him attacking my trade reputation for no valid reason, and me responding in kind to stop the behavior "personal"? He is directly attacking my ability to sell. That is beyond personal, it is directly trade related. He slandered my reputation, and I responded by marking him for his abuse. Also VOD, BTW I think it is important to mark scammers, but to be frank I don't take your feedback as seriously because you do apply it frivolously, even if MOST of them were scammers.

[Beastlymac]

As a heads up I would recommend that you be careful with all negative feedback you leave I was deemed to have "abused" the trust system with one of my feedback ratings that I left on a user that I had proved was trying to extort money from me and was slandering me. As a result of the rating I left I was removed from theymos trust tree.

[redsn0w]

As a heads up I would recommend that you be careful with all negative feedback you leave I was deemed to have "abused" the trust system with one of my feedback ratings that I left on a user that I had proved was trying to extort money from me and was slandering me. As a result of the rating I left I was removed from theymos trust tree.

It is a bad story , but if someone is in the deafult trust list I think it's because he is an honest person and he (try) to  help the community (Like vod and tomatocage when he has stopped a lot of scammers) .


#TECSHARE  a negative feedback for "personal" issues is not necessary .

[TECSHARE]

As a heads up I would recommend that you be careful with all negative feedback you leave I was deemed to have "abused" the trust system with one of my feedback ratings that I left on a user that I had proved was trying to extort money from me and was slandering me. As a result of the rating I left I was removed from theymos trust tree.

This is interesting. I hear up and down how admins and mods don't ever touch feedback, the way I am being coerced to change mine I am not surprised.

As a heads up I would recommend that you be careful with all negative feedback you leave I was deemed to have "abused" the trust system with one of my feedback ratings that I left on a user that I had proved was trying to extort money from me and was slandering me. As a result of the rating I left I was removed from theymos trust tree.

It is a bad story , but if someone is in the deafult trust list I think it's because he is an honest person and he (try) to  help the community (Like vod and tomatocage when he has stopped a lot of scammers) .


#TECSHARE  a negative feedback for "personal" issues is not necessary .

Again, you keep saying its "personal". It is NOT PERSONAL. I DON'T EVEN KNOW THIS GUY. I never talked with him once before he started harassing me. He is attempting to harm my BUSINESS by attacking my reputation. He got only what he was dishing out back. BTW its easy for everyone here to call this "unnecessary" when there is zero cost for you to completely ignore the situation, and I am the one that is dealing with loss of sales and harassment. Apparently because I have lots of trust I am supposed to stand perfectly still like a royal guard while tourists slap my face.

P.S. you guys keep saying "default trust". I would like to point out I am not on the default trust list.

[ACCTseller]

This thread is disappointing on so many levels.

Default trust, which can be such a good tool, being used as leverage and "make people learn a lesson", and what's more disturbing is that not only are people willing to turn a blind eye, but that some are even defending it.  I always thought default trust was a fairly good thing, and the self regulating nature of the community would fix any aberrant behavior, but clearly not. Looks like default trust is turning into a good old boys network.

TECSHARE is being very aggressive against anyone who speaks out against him. If you look at his sales threads you will see that he bashes anyone who tries to question him or how he describes (or prices) his products. He will not accept any kind of criticism.

He is acting especially aggressive in this case. I would say that people are not speaking out against him out of fear they will receive similar treatment that Armis received. The fact that so many people conduct business here makes receiving negative trust a torpedo to an account. The only people who have spoken out against him (vod and badbear) conduct very little business here.

As a heads up I would recommend that you be careful with all negative feedback you leave I was deemed to have "abused" the trust system with one of my feedback ratings that I left on a user that I had proved was trying to extort money from me and was slandering me. As a result of the rating I left I was removed from theymos trust tree.

This is interesting. I hear up and down how admins and mods don't ever touch feedback, the way I am being coerced to change mine I am not surprised.

He is talking about theymos removing him from his trust network, as being someone that is trusted, not as a moderator. There is a big difference. Also the mod that is "coerced" to change your feedback is giving facts and is not forcing you to change anything.

As a heads up I would recommend that you be careful with all negative feedback you leave I was deemed to have "abused" the trust system with one of my feedback ratings that I left on a user that I had proved was trying to extort money from me and was slandering me. As a result of the rating I left I was removed from theymos trust tree.

It is a bad story , but if someone is in the deafult trust list I think it's because he is an honest person and he (try) to  help the community (Like vod and tomatocage when he has stopped a lot of scammers) .


#TECSHARE  a negative feedback for "personal" issues is not necessary .

Again, you keep saying its "personal". It is NOT PERSONAL. I DON'T EVEN KNOW THIS GUY. I never talked with him once before he started harassing me. He is attempting to harm my BUSINESS by attacking my reputation. He got only what he was dishing out back. BTW its easy for everyone here to call this "unnecessary" when there is zero cost for you to completely ignore the situation, and I am the one that is dealing with loss of sales and harassment. Apparently because I have lots of trust I am supposed to stand perfectly still like a royal guard while tourists slap my face. [/quote]You are basically saying that Armis is calling you out because you were charging an unfair price for something and you gave him negative feedback until he deletes any trace of him pointing out you being unfair. Another way of putting it is that he is claiming that you are scamming and you give him negative trust until he retracts such claim (some people would consider charging an above market price for something to be a scam - which is something you are doing). I personally do not consider either you charging such a high price nor you giving someone negative feedback for someone calling you out to be trustworthy.

P.S. you guys keep saying "default trust". I would like to point out I am not on the default trust list.

You are in CanaryInTheMine and SaltySpitoon trust list. You would need to be removed from both of their trust lists in order to be removed from default trust. Until that happens you will remain on default trust. I am curious to know both of their opinions on this matter.

You guys keep calling this "personal", but how is him attacking my trade reputation for no valid reason, and me responding in kind to stop the behavior "personal"? He is directly attacking my ability to sell. That is beyond personal, it is directly trade related. He slandered my reputation, and I responded by marking him for his abuse. Also VOD, BTW I think it is important to mark scammers, but to be frank I don't take your feedback as seriously because you do apply it frivolously, even if MOST of them were scammers.

Again, if he is preventing you from selling your products then negative feedback is not appropriate. He is calling you dishonest, and as a retaliation you have given him negative trust. Again this is the same as him opening a scam accusation against you and you giving him negative trust until he retracts his claims. How is this the right thing to do, regardless of if his claims are accurate or not?

Here is an example of a recent negative feedback that you left for someone on 5/11/14

Left fake retaliation feedback because he didn't like getting busted for scamming.

Is this not what you are doing?

Here is another one you left for the same user on 9/10/13

I didn't trade with him but leaving a neg to get some red on his name so he doesn't bait anyone else. Confirmed attempted scammer.

Why did you not leave a similar disclaimer on Armis feedback? Or why did you not leave the disclaimer that he did not scam anyone?

Additionally I find it rather hilarious you have such an issue with my single use of the feedback system in this way when other users with FAR MORE trust than me on the default trust list leave negative feedback for people based only on hunches or personal opinions.

If you are posting about me, why haven't you let me know your feelings before this?  My hunches are always correct, and I try not to leave feedback based on personal opinion.  If I do, I welcome you to call me on it, or send me a PM.

The feedback that vod leaves is left when he sees an apparent scam. It would be generally believed to an experienced user on the forum that someone is attempting to scam before he leaves his feedback. Can you show why you think Armis was trying to scam?

[the joint]

This thread is disappointing on so many levels.

Default trust, which can be such a good tool, being used as leverage and "make people learn a lesson", and what's more disturbing is that not only are people willing to turn a blind eye, but that some are even defending it.  I always thought default trust was a fairly good thing, and the self regulating nature of the community would fix any aberrant behavior, but clearly not. Looks like default trust is turning into a good old boys network.

That said, if the community is really okay with feedback being used in this way, then maybe it's time to just change the feedback system to accommodate that, and how the ratings are calculated. A good start would be to change it to where you need to have multiple negatives before it has such an adverse effect on your rating. Maybe people further down on the trust list hierarchy could also have a lesser effect on ratings than those higher up. This would also make using a trust level of 3 more usable than it is now.  

Bottom line, if you can't trust someone like TECSHARE, who has conducted himself impeccably

Until now...

Should never leave negative feedback for personal reasons, esp if you are on the default trust list.

I got drunk one night and left negative feedback for someone based on a personal reason.  The next day the community ripped me a new one before I apologized and removed it.  I have no idea why the same thing is not happening here.

I'm also on default trust, but I don't personally reserve feedback for business transactions. You were made aware of this yesterday lol

That being said, I don't hand out feedback frivolously.  I don't believe TECSHARE does, either.

The trust system is just a way to publicly announce who you personally trust or distrust and why.  I'm sure TECSHARE is well aware that if he were to frivolously provide negative feedback to a whole bunch of people it would kill his reputation.  Accordingly, I perceive this as an anamoly.

It's not so much this "anomaly" that bothers me, it's the way it's been (not) handled. Can you really read tecshare's posts here, look at the attitude, and say that he should be in the default trust network? Being a good trader doesn't mean you are a good candidate for default trust anymore than being a good poster means you would make a good moderator (it doesn't).

Do you really think that this will be the last time he does something like this, especially with people defending it and saying it's okay?

Would you be okay with this "one time anomaly" if it were you on the receiving end?  

I remember when I blew up a few years ago at a time when I had much less at stake than I do now.  I'm not sure if you remember my argumentativeness around Old Engineer's "guess the date when BTC will hit $4" contest.  To this day, I feel my blowback (albeit prior to the implementation of the trust system) was justified, but I realized I had to tone it down a bit for the sake of my reputation.  A couple years later, I'm on default trust, and while my posts often take a contrarian position, I don't think I've done anything that warrants excluding me from the list. 

Sometimes certain issues rub you the wrong way, or you might be having a bad day, or a combination of things.  TECSHARE essentially acknowledged he went overboard by fabricating elements of his feedback, and he has since corrected them.  To me, this demonstrates a heathy level of awareness of what's transpired here, even if additional awareness only came as a result of hindsight (I.e. the blow ack he received in this thread).

To me, trust has a lot to do with consistency.  And even in spite of this particular issue, I think TECSHARE has done more than enough to demonstrate that he is an honest seller.  As far a I can recall, this is the only issue in which he has come under the microscope, and given that he's been an outstanding trader otherwise, I still think he deserves a place on default trust.  I think his defensiveness and attitude is warranted, and while I'm not in favor of fabricated or frivolous feedback, he has corrected the fabrication; whether his feedback was frivolous is up for interpretation.  I don't see it as frivolous because, according to his feedback history, it seems like an anamoly.

[TECSHARE]

rabble rabble rabble

Aggressive? So telling people who have no interest in trading, nor have ever traded with me to get lost is aggressive? With all the crap that goes on in this forum me telling trolls to get lost is offensive to you? You peddle other people's trust ratings, I am not sure you are the one to criticize me about this.

Why does Armis have a right to decide what price I charge for my property? Which by the way I was selling at cost. This is not a legitimate complaint from someone looking to make a trade, it is just someone with nothing better to do than get his derps off messing with other people's ability to trade legitimately. Do you think that nearly every marketplace post here doesn't have a corresponding link somewhere on the internet that sells the item cheaper? I wasn't misrepresenting anything, how is this "unfair" for someone to pay a price that they were fully disclosed of?

Do people stand around in Target and hand you coupons for Wall-mart when you pick up an item to look at it? Do you think any proprietor would find that acceptable under any circumstances?

 If he has a dispute with my behavior he has the ability to post about it, like in this thread right here. His bullshit about trying to "help" is just a superficial justification for his off topic trolling of my market place thread. My marketplace threads are the ONLY place I can sell items here. He has the entire forum to start drama about me if he so chooses (and he does).

This is not the same as him opening a scam accusation against me. For one we never transacted or attempted to transact. Additionally if he wanted to accuse me of scamming he should have put it in the SCAM ACCUSATION subforum. His criticisms of me are completely fabricated because we have never traded. Me leaving him a negative is in no way reflective of my trustworthiness as a trader. My criticisms of him are for what he did, he spent a considerable amount of time harassing me, that's what I gave him a mark for.

As far as you deconstructing my feedback... its very clear you are attempting to create and feed of of more drama here...
VODs feed back for an apparent scam is ok, but my feedback for an apparent scam is not?
re 5/11/14 + 9/10/13
His negative on my trust was for "trying to rip him off without escrow" but he posted this AFTER I negged him for scamming, we never had a transaction. It was fake and retaliatory for calling out his scamming. Several other users clearly negged him as well for the same scam attempt.

As far as Armis scamming, I didn't claim he was scamming, my feedback says "You should focus on your own affairs instead of harassing others." Which was a comment about what he was actually doing, harassing me. You can "generally believe" whatever you like, reality is clearly different.

[murraypaul]

Default trust, which can be such a good tool, being used as leverage and "make people learn a lesson", and what's more disturbing is that not only are people willing to turn a blind eye, but that some are even defending it.  I always thought default trust was a fairly good thing, and the self regulating nature of the community would fix any aberrant behavior, but clearly not. Looks like default trust is turning into a good old boys network.

I would say that people are not speaking out against him out of fear they will receive similar treatment that Armis received. The fact that so many people conduct business here makes receiving negative trust a torpedo to an account. The only people who have spoken out against him (vod and badbear) conduct very little business here.

(and are both in the default trust network themselves, and so therefore 'equal')

Talking only about the default trust issues, and not anything specific to this issue or the people concerned, this is exactly it.
People aren't going to jump up to argue against someone who:
- Has left negative feedback about someone who annoyed them, and
- Is in the default trust network
For fear of annoying them, and being flagged as untrustworthy to anyone who subscribes to default trust, which everyone does by default.

Looks like default trust is turning into a good old boys network.

It is, by definition, an old boys network.
You cannot get in by your own actions. You cannot get kicked out by your own actions.
It is purely the choice of the existing members.

[TECSHARE]

So I didn't get all my trust for working my ass off for 3 years making sure everyone I trade with is satisfied? I never thought of it that way.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=192oEC5TX_Q#t=56