Long Live Proof-of-Work, Long Live Mining - "there is no meaningful alternative"

[HostFat]

This is a really interesting article for the debate POW vs POS


http://www.truthcoin.info/blog/pow-and-mining/

Satoshi got it right: [1] proof of work ensures distributed consensus, and [2] mining ensures an economically-viable network.

A Day’s Pay for a Day’s Proof-of-Work

Econ 101: Marginal Cost = Marginal Revenue. If a block releases X dollars worth of coins to the creator, X dollars will be spent creating it.

It’s been said that Proof of Work (PoW) “wastes” billions (or whatever) of dollars per year, and/or that it “wastes” energy.

“Waste” implies a more prudent alternative, and indeed these Anti-Satoshians try propose a “cheaper” way of distributing coins, despite the fact that this is goal is nonsensical.

Conclusion
For the foreseeable future, there is no meaningful alternative to either proof of work or mining.

Reddit
https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2miytv/long_live_proofofwork_long_live_mining/

[thew3apon]

I was under the impression that the fact that PoW is superior has long been the case and that anyone who thinks PoS is better either does not understand the economics behind mining and/or is trying to pump their piece of shit altcoin

[kodtycoon]

I was under the impression that the fact that PoW is superior has long been the case and that anyone who thinks PoS is better either does not understand the economics behind mining and/or is trying to pump their piece of shit altcoin

https://www.reddit.com/user/vbuterin

[Lethn]

The whole point of the 'wasted' energy is because of how difficult it is to mine coins in the first place, just like with precious metals mines are probably having to piss away tons of electricity just to get at a few precious veins deep beneath the earth, this is how Bitcoin simulates it's rarity. I do think though that if people are that conscious about the electricity they should just support coins like Primecoin and Curecoin which are pretty good alternatives. I think donating all that hashing power to scientific projects is probably going to be the way forward, but the main thing to do would be to make it so that electricity isn't so rare to get your hands on in the first place.

[saddampbuh]

energy what? its about price. easy for legendary staff member early adopter who already made his riches and is probably just here for fun now to talk about how wonderful pow is

pow = new fiat goes on absorbing the new coins, failure of new fiat to keep up with coin generation lead to crash after crash

pos = new fiat goes towards buying MY coins at higher prices, i get rich

all i care about

[newuser01]

energy what? its about price. easy for legendary staff member early adopter who already made his riches and is probably just here for fun now to talk about how wonderful pow is

pow = new fiat goes on absorbing the new coins, failure of new fiat to keep up with coin generation lead to crash after crash

pos = new fiat goes towards buying MY coins at higher prices, i get rich

all i care about

Exactly, PoS is a try to get rich scheme and is a complete failure compared to PoW and its superior security

[kodtycoon]

energy what? its about price. easy for legendary staff member early adopter who already made his riches and is probably just here for fun now to talk about how wonderful pow is

pow = new fiat goes on absorbing the new coins, failure of new fiat to keep up with coin generation lead to crash after crash

pos = new fiat goes towards buying MY coins at higher prices, i get rich

all i care about

Exactly, PoS is a try to get rich scheme and is a complete failure compared to PoW and its superior security

how many times have pow coins been 51% attacked? hint: plenty of times!

how many times have pos coins been 51% attacked? hint: never!

im not talking about bitcoin or any specific coins. just the different algorithms in general.

[newuser01]

energy what? its about price. easy for legendary staff member early adopter who already made his riches and is probably just here for fun now to talk about how wonderful pow is

pow = new fiat goes on absorbing the new coins, failure of new fiat to keep up with coin generation lead to crash after crash

pos = new fiat goes towards buying MY coins at higher prices, i get rich

all i care about

Exactly, PoS is a try to get rich scheme and is a complete failure compared to PoW and its superior security

how many times have pow coins been 51% attacked? hint: plenty of times!

how many times have pos coins been 51% attacked? hint: never!

im not talking about bitcoin or any specific coins. just the different algorithms in general.

dat logic  

[Jamie_Boulder]

energy what? its about price. easy for legendary staff member early adopter who already made his riches and is probably just here for fun now to talk about how wonderful pow is

pow = new fiat goes on absorbing the new coins, failure of new fiat to keep up with coin generation lead to crash after crash

pos = new fiat goes towards buying MY coins at higher prices, i get rich

all i care about

Exactly, PoS is a try to get rich scheme and is a complete failure compared to PoW and its superior security

how many times have pow coins been 51% attacked? hint: plenty of times!

how many times have pos coins been 51% attacked? hint: never!

im not talking about bitcoin or any specific coins. just the different algorithms in general.

How many times has pos coins been debased by banks because it isn't as profitable as it once was sending economies into chaos? hint: plenty of times!

I'm aware you're not talking about bitcoin in your 51% comment but bitcoin is the only one you should be worried about, personally it's the only crypto I take seriously.

[kodtycoon]

energy what? its about price. easy for legendary staff member early adopter who already made his riches and is probably just here for fun now to talk about how wonderful pow is

pow = new fiat goes on absorbing the new coins, failure of new fiat to keep up with coin generation lead to crash after crash

pos = new fiat goes towards buying MY coins at higher prices, i get rich

all i care about

Exactly, PoS is a try to get rich scheme and is a complete failure compared to PoW and its superior security

how many times have pow coins been 51% attacked? hint: plenty of times!

how many times have pos coins been 51% attacked? hint: never!

im not talking about bitcoin or any specific coins. just the different algorithms in general.

How many times has pos coins been debased by banks because it isn't as profitable as it once was sending economies into chaos? hint: plenty of times!

I'm aware you're not talking about bitcoin in your 51% comment but bitcoin is the only one you should be worried about, personally it's the only crypto I take seriously.

that makes no sense what so ever? banks? debasing pos coins? i doubt banks even know what PoS is. they can barely understand bitcoin never mind the vastly more complicated PoS.

[dothebeats]

This is a really interesting article for the debate POW vs POS


http://www.truthcoin.info/blog/pow-and-mining/

Satoshi got it right: [1] proof of work ensures distributed consensus, and [2] mining ensures an economically-viable network.

A Day’s Pay for a Day’s Proof-of-Work

Econ 101: Marginal Cost = Marginal Revenue. If a block releases X dollars worth of coins to the creator, X dollars will be spent creating it.

It’s been said that Proof of Work (PoW) “wastes” billions (or whatever) of dollars per year, and/or that it “wastes” energy.

“Waste” implies a more prudent alternative, and indeed these Anti-Satoshians try propose a “cheaper” way of distributing coins, despite the fact that this is goal is nonsensical.

Conclusion
For the foreseeable future, there is no meaningful alternative to either proof of work or mining.

Reddit
https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2miytv/long_live_proofofwork_long_live_mining/

Nice article.
The cost of mining 1 bitcoin nowadays is greater than the cost of 1 bitcoin itself. Energy is not wasted, but billions of $$ are. The PoW just serves as an emphasis to the rarity of the bitcoin.

[kodtycoon]

This is a really interesting article for the debate POW vs POS


http://www.truthcoin.info/blog/pow-and-mining/

Satoshi got it right: [1] proof of work ensures distributed consensus, and [2] mining ensures an economically-viable network.

A Day’s Pay for a Day’s Proof-of-Work

Econ 101: Marginal Cost = Marginal Revenue. If a block releases X dollars worth of coins to the creator, X dollars will be spent creating it.

It’s been said that Proof of Work (PoW) “wastes” billions (or whatever) of dollars per year, and/or that it “wastes” energy.

“Waste” implies a more prudent alternative, and indeed these Anti-Satoshians try propose a “cheaper” way of distributing coins, despite the fact that this is goal is nonsensical.

Conclusion
For the foreseeable future, there is no meaningful alternative to either proof of work or mining.

Reddit
https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2miytv/long_live_proofofwork_long_live_mining/

Nice article.
The cost of mining 1 bitcoin nowadays is greater than the cost of 1 bitcoin itself. Energy is not wasted, but billions of $$ are. The PoW just serves as an emphasis to the rarity of the bitcoin.

if that was true, why the hell would anyone pay more to mine when its cheaper just to directly but bitcoin?

edit: also take note of v.buterins refutation of the article.

[kokojie]

I was under the impression that the fact that PoW is superior has long been the case and that anyone who thinks PoS is better either does not understand the economics behind mining and/or is trying to pump their piece of shit altcoin

I like how you think PoW = Bitcoin and PoS = altcoin, it really shows how much you know about this topic.

[kokojie]

This thread is nothing but PoW miner shills trying to hold on to their waning power, as the crypto world is increasingly moving toward the superior PoS system.

[kodtycoon]

This thread is nothing but PoW miner shills trying to hold on to their waning power, as the crypto world is increasingly moving toward the superior PoS system.

i totally agree, but in all honesty i think something further superior to PoS will surpass PoS as the alternative algo that will challenge PoW. 

its simple evolution.

[devphp]

The cost of mining 1 bitcoin nowadays is greater than the cost of 1 bitcoin itself. Energy is not wasted, but billions of $$ are. The PoW just serves as an emphasis to the rarity of the bitcoin.

if that was true, why the hell would anyone pay more to mine when its cheaper just to directly but bitcoin?

Large mining farms were established from funding by VC or from their own sales of ASICs. They have no choice but to keep mining in hopes the price will recover and they can recoup their investment. If the price doesn't recover, there will be mass bankruptcies in a year or two or when the loans are called by the creditors.

[kokojie]

This thread is nothing but PoW miner shills trying to hold on to their waning power, as the crypto world is increasingly moving toward the superior PoS system.

i totally agree, but in all honesty i think something further superior to PoS will surpass PoS as the alternative algo that will challenge PoW. 

its simple evolution.

I don't think it's likely, since PoS has reached nearly perfect efficiency in terms of resources. The further variations are subsets of PoS, such as DPoS, TaPoS, they can improve upon PoS, but the core ideas of PoS is unlikely to change.

[kodtycoon]

This thread is nothing but PoW miner shills trying to hold on to their waning power, as the crypto world is increasingly moving toward the superior PoS system.

i totally agree, but in all honesty i think something further superior to PoS will surpass PoS as the alternative algo that will challenge PoW.  

its simple evolution.

I don't think it's likely, since PoS has reached nearly perfect efficiency in terms of resources. The further variations are subsets of PoS, such as DPoS, TaPoS, they can improve upon PoS, but the core ideas of PoS is unlikely to change.

you should take a look at proof of importance. Its founded on the concept of pos and is as efficeint but the method by which people are chosen to forge blocks is vastly different. Those who are most important to the network are the most likely to forge apposed to who has the most coins. So a merchant that does thousands of transactions but little balance could end up with higher weighting than a hoarder with loads of coins. Its not just how many transactions that are factored in to decide importance but who the transactions are with and their importance, much like a web of trust.

this also plays into things like the asset exchange. with pos, scammers would be listed exactly the same as genuine vendors and therefore have a high chance of scamming, thus assets could not be listed and require users to know the asset ID.

with proof of importance, assets can be listed by importance score, as well as volume, importance gained from or history of past assets among other methods, merchants that do not meet the minimum requirement would not be listed until they meet the minimum requirement which vastly reduces the chances of scammers being listed. PoI will open many doors when it comes to online marketplaces/asset exchange that would not be possible with PoS.

[kokojie]

This thread is nothing but PoW miner shills trying to hold on to their waning power, as the crypto world is increasingly moving toward the superior PoS system.

i totally agree, but in all honesty i think something further superior to PoS will surpass PoS as the alternative algo that will challenge PoW.  

its simple evolution.

I don't think it's likely, since PoS has reached nearly perfect efficiency in terms of resources. The further variations are subsets of PoS, such as DPoS, TaPoS, they can improve upon PoS, but the core ideas of PoS is unlikely to change.

you should take a look at proof of importance. Its founded on the concept of pos and is as efficeint but the method by which people are chosen to forge blocks is vastly different. Those who are most important to the network are the most likely to forge apposed to who has the most coins. So a merchant that does thousands of transactions but little balance could end up with higher weighting than a hoarder with loads of coins. Its not just how many transactions that are factored in to decide importance but who the transactions are with and their importance, much like a web of trust.

That sounds like another subset of PoS, but with an added layer of determining which stakes are more important. I think that's still PoS at the core.

This is another advantage of PoS, the specific implementation is very flexible, able to fit different needs and easily be improved upon.

[kodtycoon]

This thread is nothing but PoW miner shills trying to hold on to their waning power, as the crypto world is increasingly moving toward the superior PoS system.

i totally agree, but in all honesty i think something further superior to PoS will surpass PoS as the alternative algo that will challenge PoW.  

its simple evolution.

I don't think it's likely, since PoS has reached nearly perfect efficiency in terms of resources. The further variations are subsets of PoS, such as DPoS, TaPoS, they can improve upon PoS, but the core ideas of PoS is unlikely to change.

you should take a look at proof of importance. Its founded on the concept of pos and is as efficeint but the method by which people are chosen to forge blocks is vastly different. Those who are most important to the network are the most likely to forge apposed to who has the most coins. So a merchant that does thousands of transactions but little balance could end up with higher weighting than a hoarder with loads of coins. Its not just how many transactions that are factored in to decide importance but who the transactions are with and their importance, much like a web of trust.

That sounds like another subset of PoS, but with an added layer of determining which stakes are more important. I think that's still PoS at the core.

This is another advantage of PoS, the specific implementation is very flexible, able to fit different needs and easily be improved upon.

no its entirely written from scratch. according to the devs it wouldnt be possible for PoI to be migrated into existing pos algos due to the difference in architecture or something.