Cloudmining 101

[Puppet]

What can you tell me about "HP Hash Profit"?

https://hashprofit.com/en

Thank you,
Zorro

Nothing. What can you tell me about them?

[1714625401]

1714625401

[1714625401]

1714625401

[ZorroPai]

First you get 200KH/s for 7 days as a present to test their system.
But at the same time they put preshure on you to buy hashpower with a discount of 40% on the regular price valid only for 24 hours.

What you you think?

I bought a litle bit and everything seems working well.

[yvv]

I don't think that it is possible to run cloud mining for long without mining at all. Ponzi scheme requires exponentially increasing number of participants to run, otherwise scammers don't get profit. This is not what happens with cloud mining schemes. They may not own hardware, e.g. rent it or re-sell virtual hashes, but mining should happen somewhere. However, they can scam you many other ways.

[yvv]

What can you tell me about "HP Hash Profit"?

https://hashprofit.com/en

Thank you,
Zorro

Look at my signature. They are all very risky. The only two which almost certainly will make me profit are hash profit and hashie. Hash profit is because I got a lot of free hashes through referrals during discount sale. And hashie is because I resold my hashes with 50% skim twice. What an idiot bought it for such a price is a mystery  for me.

[Mabsark]

I don't think that it is possible to run cloud mining for long without mining at all.

Actually, it is. See Deprived Mining Speculation and Bitcoin Difficulty Derivative.

[bitgeek]

You gave this point to GAW.

3) No pictures of their hardware and datacenter
There is no reason not to provide such pictures, except of course, if there is nothing to take pictures off.


In reality pictures of their data centers are available:

Outside:
https://ip.bitcointalk.org/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fs15.postimg.org%2F5ahdyp6m3%2F14_central1.jpg&t=546&c=NxqoyAFcdcDH2w

Inside:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-JqqP37Ygce4/VF0tEsgGprI/AAAAAAAAAkQ/pa6-Mrp43x4/s1600/Miners2.jpg
http://gawminers.eu/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/bgGSEVf.jpg

[yvv]

I don't think that it is possible to run cloud mining for long without mining at all.

Actually, it is. See Deprived Mining Speculation and Bitcoin Difficulty Derivative.

tl;dr What is a point there?

[yvv]

You gave this point to GAW.

3) No pictures of their hardware and datacenter
There is no reason not to provide such pictures, except of course, if there is nothing to take pictures off.


In reality pictures of their data centers are available:

Outside:
https://ip.bitcointalk.org/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fs15.postimg.org%2F5ahdyp6m3%2F14_central1.jpg&t=546&c=NxqoyAFcdcDH2w

Inside:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-JqqP37Ygce4/VF0tEsgGprI/AAAAAAAAAkQ/pa6-Mrp43x4/s1600/Miners2.jpg
http://gawminers.eu/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/bgGSEVf.jpg

Come on, there is nothing proving that these picture are made at a property of XYZ company. This does not mean that XYZ are scammers. You buy a pig in a poke with every cloud mining company.

[bitgeek]

You gave this point to GAW.

3) No pictures of their hardware and datacenter
There is no reason not to provide such pictures, except of course, if there is nothing to take pictures off.


In reality pictures of their data centers are available:

Outside:
https://ip.bitcointalk.org/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fs15.postimg.org%2F5ahdyp6m3%2F14_central1.jpg&t=546&c=NxqoyAFcdcDH2w

Inside:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-JqqP37Ygce4/VF0tEsgGprI/AAAAAAAAAkQ/pa6-Mrp43x4/s1600/Miners2.jpg
http://gawminers.eu/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/bgGSEVf.jpg

Come on, there is nothing proving that these picture are made at a property of XYZ company. This does not mean that XYZ are scammers. You buy a pig in a poke with every cloud mining company.

Aaand your wrong. These are just some of the pictures.
Gaw have been renting this building ever since they started to sell miners and used it as a warehouse to store the hardware.
http://www.datacenterknowledge.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/GAW-hashing-center.jpg

They also included the pictures of the AC units and transformers that power the building, not to mention its location on the map, so people can actually visit and ask who the owner is.

[Mabsark]

I don't think that it is possible to run cloud mining for long without mining at all.

Actually, it is. See Deprived Mining Speculation and Bitcoin Difficulty Derivative.

tl;dr What is a point there?

The point of me posting those links was simply to show that you can have "cloud mining" without any miners at all. Those services have 2 components, MINE and SELL and SELL has always been vastly more profitable (B.MINE=69.86% vs B.SELL=563.49% yield on Havelock) due to the size of the difficulty increases. Now, imagine running a service like that and keeping the SELL component for yourself and only allowing people to purchase the MINE component. That is essentially how you run a cloud mining ponzi.

Cloud mining ponzis like that will collapse once the difficulty increases drop below a certain threshold. With the recent low difficulty increases, some of the ponzi schemes may not have paid out as much as expected due to the above.

[RealMalatesta]

In some countries, the people who participate in a promo-sig-game like currently with cloudminr.io are becoming part of the fraud. So it is obvious: Greed is stronger than brain. One day, some of these promotors could end up in the interrogation room... the same is true for people who offer to be an escrow.

[RealMalatesta]

I don't think that it is possible to run cloud mining for long without mining at all.

Actually, it is. See Deprived Mining Speculation and Bitcoin Difficulty Derivative.

tl;dr What is a point there?

The point of me posting those links was simply to show that you can have "cloud mining" without any miners at all. Those services have 2 components, MINE and SELL and SELL has always been vastly more profitable (B.MINE=69.86% vs B.SELL=563.49% yield on Havelock) due to the size of the difficulty increases. Now, imagine running a service like that and keeping the SELL component for yourself and only allowing people to purchase the MINE component. That is essentially how you run a cloud mining ponzi.

Cloud mining ponzis like that will collapse once the difficulty increases drop below a certain threshold. With the recent low difficulty increases, some of the ponzi schemes may not have paid out as much as expected due to the above.

The absolutely most profitable ponzi scheme is when you have some cheap BTC - probably stolen - and sell them as "cloud mining" - that's also called money laundering. But other than with ordinary money laundering where you have to give away a certain percentage to the launderer, you make money with those ponzis...

[dyask]

By that standard, every site in existence would have a 7.    What you are demanding doesn't mean anything.   Chris is a real ASIC designer and well know in the community.    He is a real person.   Doesn't mean that he or anyone else couldn't run off with the money though.  

I only see claims he is an fpga dev, not an asic designer. And again  i dont care his online persona is well known, pirate was well known too. I want to know the legal person or entity behind it or its a obvious point. I know were to direct my lawyer if i want to sue cryptx or knc. Where do i go for ltcgear?

I would probably accept your argument if I weren't married to a lawyer.    That plan fact is, who owns a website that is based some random location in the world isn't going to help.    However, I decided your criteria is fine.   Personally I would rather have LTCGear labelled as a Ponzi.  

[yvv]

Aaand your wrong. These are just some of the pictures.
Gaw have been renting this building ever since they started to sell miners and used it as a warehouse to store the hardware.
http://www.datacenterknowledge.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/GAW-hashing-center.jpg

They also included the pictures of the AC units and transformers that power the building, not to mention its location on the map, so people can actually visit and ask who the owner is.

Well, I may be wrong. Can't check it myself.

[yvv]

The point of me posting those links was simply to show that you can have "cloud mining" without any miners at all. Those services have 2 components, MINE and SELL and SELL has always been vastly more profitable (B.MINE=69.86% vs B.SELL=563.49% yield on Havelock) due to the size of the difficulty increases. Now, imagine running a service like that and keeping the SELL component for yourself and only allowing people to purchase the MINE component. That is essentially how you run a cloud mining ponzi.

Cloud mining ponzis like that will collapse once the difficulty increases drop below a certain threshold. With the recent low difficulty increases, some of the ponzi schemes may not have paid out as much as expected due to the above.

It is not a ponzi. They speculate with hash power. I did it too at hashie.co with profit, and this is the only reason my investment there is going to be returned. It is gambling, not ponzi. And it can not be done without actual mining.

[yvv]

The absolutely most profitable ponzi scheme is when you have some cheap BTC - probably stolen - and sell them as "cloud mining" - that's also called money laundering. But other than with ordinary money laundering where you have to give away a certain percentage to the launderer, you make money with those ponzis...

Guys, stop calling every scam a ponzi. Ponzi pyramid and money laundering are completely different crimes. It is like a murder vs tax avoidance. Both are crimes (edit: in many jurisdictions), but consequences are completely different.

And, by the way, thanks for information. I don't want to be involved into money laundering, and will be more careful when invest in cloud mining next time.
 

[jimmothy]

The point of me posting those links was simply to show that you can have "cloud mining" without any miners at all. Those services have 2 components, MINE and SELL and SELL has always been vastly more profitable (B.MINE=69.86% vs B.SELL=563.49% yield on Havelock) due to the size of the difficulty increases. Now, imagine running a service like that and keeping the SELL component for yourself and only allowing people to purchase the MINE component. That is essentially how you run a cloud mining ponzi.

Cloud mining ponzis like that will collapse once the difficulty increases drop below a certain threshold. With the recent low difficulty increases, some of the ponzi schemes may not have paid out as much as expected due to the above.

It is not a ponzi. They speculate with hash power. I did it too at hashie.co with profit, and this is the only reason my investment there is going to be returned. It is gambling, not ponzi. And it can not be done without actual mining.

No, the bitcoin difficulty derivative is NOT based on actual hashing power.

Put any start date in http://retrocalc.net/ and you can see exactly how much 1 GH/s would have paid out over time.

For example if you started mining on January 1st you would have earned 0.0261 BTC/GH. That means any ponzi charging more than 0.0261 btc/gh would have made a profit without doing any mining. (You would have to subtract another ~0.002 btc/gh for future earnings.)

Point is that it is very possible (and not very difficult) for a cloudmining ponzi to never collapse if they price the contracts right.

The absolutely most profitable ponzi scheme is when you have some cheap BTC - probably stolen - and sell them as "cloud mining" - that's also called money laundering. But other than with ordinary money laundering where you have to give away a certain percentage to the launderer, you make money with those ponzis...

Guys, stop calling every scam a ponzi. Ponzi pyramid and money laundering are completely different crimes. It is like a murder vs tax avoidance. Both are crimes (edit: in many jurisdictions), but consequences are completely different.

And, by the way, thanks for information. I don't want to be involved into money laundering, and will be more careful when invest in cloud mining next time.

I think you're confused. He's just saying that it can make a ponzi more profitable to also launder money.

IMO it wouldn't be worth the effort considering you could create a decent cloudmining ponzi (by current standards) in less than an afternoon for someone with experience in web development.

[Mabsark]

It is not a ponzi. They speculate with hash power. I did it too at hashie.co with profit, and this is the only reason my investment there is going to be returned. It is gambling, not ponzi. And it can not be done without actual mining.

You obviously didn't even bother to check those links otherwise you would know that they do no mining whatsoever. If you don't believe that, then ask the operator of BDD (twentytwenty) and you will be told the same thing. Neither DMS or BDD were fraudulent though as they never claimed to be cloud mining services and were completely honest with how the system worked. Deprived (the operator of DMS) did run away with the money though making it a scam. Seriously, go and read either of those links.

As for a what a ponzi is, from wikipedia:

A Ponzi scheme is a fraudulent investment operation where the operator, an individual or organization, pays returns to its investors from new capital paid to the operators by new investors, rather than from profit earned by the operator.

A cloud mining operation that does no mining yet claims it does and pays out from money acquired from new purchases is quite clearly a ponzi scheme.

[yvv]

Seriously, go and read either of those links.

Ok, I'll certainly follow your advise.

A cloud mining operation that does no mining yet claims it does and pays out from money acquired from new purchases is quite clearly a ponzi scheme.

If it does no mining at all, no renting, no re-saleing, yes it is clearly a ponzi scheme.  It is hard to believe for me that this is possible for more than couple of month. Yet, I was surprised many times in my life with "impossible" things. Thanks for info, very interesting.
 

[jimmothy]

About GAW, I don't think their pics/endorsement should count as evidence they are legit.

They claimed to have ~750-1000 GH/s worth of hashlets mining scrypt in Oct 2. At that time the entire litecoin network was 1037 GH/s.

I find it hard to believe the litecoin/altcoin network could sustain such massive dumping, and on top of that GAW found some mysterious way to make their payouts higher than normal the conversion rate from ltc to btc.

All the pics of GAW's hardware combined only account for a few % of what they are claiming. Someone counted ~300 x 40 MH/s units which is only 12 GH/s.

I could be wrong but I think you're considering the new Bitmain 5ph/s order as an endorsement but that is long after GAW claimed to be running several MW worth of hardware.