Big exchanges doing tha pumpdump. All they want

[wesk1212]

Doing it all the time
We've been fooled

[wesk1212]

And we cant touch them like mc hammer said

[franky1]

and a few of the exchanges are just playing with database values (fractional reserves), not real bitcoin backed values

the only exchange rates people can truly trust are localbitcoins and OTC where real bank account movements result in real bitcoin movements.

stop being sheeple and using crappy exchanges as your value base when you want to do real proper trading

[jonald_fyookball]

and a few of the exchanges are just playing with database values, not real bitcoin backed values (fractional reserves).

the only exchange rates people can truly trust are localbitcoins and OTC where real bank account movements result in real bitcoin movements.

stop being sheeple and using crappy exchanges as your value base when you want to do real proper trading

I disagree.  Exchanges have higher volumes than local.
Arbitrage opportunities keeps price manipulation in line.

[franky1]

I disagree.  Exchanges have higher volumes than local.
Arbitrage opportunities keeps price manipulation in line.

lol so you think btc-e's database platform which does bot trading and fractional reserve trades with a volume of on average less than 20k coin movements a day, which are normally just 2000 coins at most going back and forth upto 10 times a day...

you really think that people should base bitcoin true value on this type of day trading..??

or would you prefer to trust a platform where each trade is a result of a real bitcoin vs a real bank account transfer.
personally i just values of localbitcoin and OTC trades averages and dont even look at php/mysql database exchanges.

[jonald_fyookball]

I disagree.  Exchanges have higher volumes than local.
Arbitrage opportunities keeps price manipulation in line.

lol so you think btc-e's database platform which does bot trading and fractional reserve trades with a volume of on average less than 20k coin movements a day, which are normally just 2000 coins at most going back and forth upto 10 times a day...

you really think that people should base bitcoin true value on this type of day trading..??

or would you prefer to trust a platform where each trade is a result of a real bitcoin vs a real bank account transfer.
personally i just values of localbitcoin and OTC trades averages and dont even look at php/mysql database exchanges.

It really doesn't matter what they do (as long as no one gets "goxed") because there are several exchanges.
Remember the rule of one price.

http://www.investopedia.com/terms/l/law-one-price.asp

[cr1776]

I disagree.  Exchanges have higher volumes than local.
Arbitrage opportunities keeps price manipulation in line.

lol so you think btc-e's database platform which does bot trading and fractional reserve trades with a volume of on average less than 20k coin movements a day, which are normally just 2000 coins at most going back and forth upto 10 times a day...

you really think that people should base bitcoin true value on this type of day trading..??

or would you prefer to trust a platform where each trade is a result of a real bitcoin vs a real bank account transfer.
personally i just values of localbitcoin and OTC trades averages and dont even look at php/mysql database exchanges.

It really doesn't matter what they do (as long as no one gets "goxed") because there are several exchanges.
Remember the rule of one price.

http://www.investopedia.com/terms/l/law-one-price.asp

It definitely does matter what they do IF, as franky was discussing, people are relying on it for price information.

[Lauda]

Isn't this a speculation thread?
Well here we go all again. The 'evil exchanges' theory.
Even if this was the case (which I'm not saying that it is), why would it be surprise anyone? The main thing that matters for majority is money, and making more money.

[LFC_Bitcoin]

If we move towards mass adoption it doesn't matter what a few shitty exchanges do.

[jonald_fyookball]

I disagree.  Exchanges have higher volumes than local.
Arbitrage opportunities keeps price manipulation in line.

lol so you think btc-e's database platform which does bot trading and fractional reserve trades with a volume of on average less than 20k coin movements a day, which are normally just 2000 coins at most going back and forth upto 10 times a day...

you really think that people should base bitcoin true value on this type of day trading..??

or would you prefer to trust a platform where each trade is a result of a real bitcoin vs a real bank account transfer.
personally i just values of localbitcoin and OTC trades averages and dont even look at php/mysql database exchanges.

It really doesn't matter what they do (as long as no one gets "goxed") because there are several exchanges.
Remember the rule of one price.

http://www.investopedia.com/terms/l/law-one-price.asp

It definitely does matter what they do IF, as franky was discussing, people are relying on it for price information.

No it doesn't because Arbitrage quickly brings any price manipulation back to market values.

[franky1]

No it doesn't because Arbitrage quickly brings any price manipulation back to market values.

nah.. when one exchange moves more than 5%, then people panic and follow.. the term is "sheeple" and has been proven many times before that moving just 200 coins on one exchange through manipulation has a impact to effect other exchanges too..

for instance the goxx saga, while smart people knew that mtgox could not be arbitraged due to fiat and bitcoin withdrawals being locked ot at the start of the year. you would IF SMART know that any price movements of gox would not effect other exchanges..

.. yet the prices of other exchanges followed gox from $650 down to $450 before many of us went on many communication boards (IRC, troll box) and repeatedly had to inform people to stop sheep following mtgox..

luckily if it were not for a few smart people.. other exchanges like bitstamp and btc-e at the time would have followed gox all the way to $100.

i even mentioned it a few times since, that people have no clue why one exchange is dropping, they personally have no balance with that exchange. but they will blindly change their orders on other exchanges purely to be sheeple. (no arbitrational involvement, only emotional).

your assumption is that money controls the price. which is incorrect. its emotion, greed and also many other aspects. and in about 90% of cases you will find that for the 200k coins that an exchange has, there is not 200k x $$$$ in the exchanges bank account to balance the books. meaning that the price does not equal the average bank account balance vs bitcoin holding,.

i seen at one point a few months back that just 200 coins caused the total market cap of bitcoin valuation fo go from $6bill to $5billion.. in one day. its near impossible to arbitrage bank account dollars from one exchange to another within half an hour so it was so obvious that its emotion based sheeple and not actual true value movements between exchanges.

wake up people

[jonald_fyookball]

Arbitrage happens much faster (with algorithmic trading and APIs)
than sentiment of the crowd or anything else, so I'm not
at all worried about price manipulation and don't agree
with your analysis on that piece.

Fractional reserve is a separate problem.  There can be
fractional reserve shenanigans going on without price
manipulations, but that is bad because there's a risk
of insolvency.

[TinaK]

Exchanges sometimes need a flat disk, they have no choice to pump/dump frequently, otherwise to run away..

[wesk1212]

yes. imagine people..just imagine what you could able to do if you owned coinbase..
with that many bitcoin to begin with, and that much fee that ppl pay just to sell AND buy bitcoin? wow
im sure they can make some peoples balls shrink at times if they wanted..

[deluxeCITY]

I disagree.  Exchanges have higher volumes than local.
Arbitrage opportunities keeps price manipulation in line.

lol so you think btc-e's database platform which does bot trading and fractional reserve trades with a volume of on average less than 20k coin movements a day, which are normally just 2000 coins at most going back and forth upto 10 times a day...

you really think that people should base bitcoin true value on this type of day trading..??

or would you prefer to trust a platform where each trade is a result of a real bitcoin vs a real bank account transfer.
personally i just values of localbitcoin and OTC trades averages and dont even look at php/mysql database exchanges.

Do you have any proof that btc-e uses fractional reserves? or is this just speculation?

The prices of trades on LBC are based on the price on bitstamp, at least those that trade on their escrowed platform. It is also much easier to "trade" with yourself (eg. make up trades/prices) on LBC then you can on other "traditional" exchanges as it does not require actual movement of bitcoin or money (contrary to your claim)

[Nancarrow]

It is also much easier to "trade" with yourself (eg. make up trades/prices) on LBC then you can on other "traditional" exchanges as it does not require actual movement of bitcoin or money (contrary to your claim)

You sure about that? I've used LBC a lot in the past year, usually responding to ads but sometimes putting them up, and whoever puts the ad up has to pay LBC 1% of whatever trades happen. So you couldn't trade *very much* with yourself without losing a lot of fees.

[Nancarrow]

stop being sheeple and using crappy exchanges as your value base when you want to do real proper trading

As deluxecity pointed out, all the big traders on LBC peg their prices to bitstamp.

And for God's sake don't wake the sheeple! http://xkcd.com/1013/

[Kakmakr]

Worst thing is, the trades on localbitcoin and private sales are not reflected anywhere to influence the price.
The biggest transactions in bitcoin are done there, not on corrupt exchanges. ^Sob^

I have no BTC stored on exchanges, because I simply do not trust them. ^Grin^

[pitham1]

Worst thing is, the trades on localbitcoin and private sales are not reflected anywhere to influence the price.
The biggest transactions in bitcoin are done there, not on corrupt exchanges. ^Sob^

I have no BTC stored on exchanges, because I simply do not trust them. ^Grin^

Private sales seem to keep the prices depressed. If the big buyers were forced to buy on exchanges (i.e. miners don't sell bitcoins privately), we would have true price discovery.

[franky1]

Worst thing is, the trades on localbitcoin and private sales are not reflected anywhere to influence the price.
The biggest transactions in bitcoin are done there, not on corrupt exchanges. ^Sob^

I have no BTC stored on exchanges, because I simply do not trust them. ^Grin^

Private sales seem to keep the prices depressed. If the big buyers were forced to buy on exchanges (i.e. miners don't sell bitcoins privately), we would have true price discovery.

in the last year due to all the AML/KYC requirements, and money movement limits/flags big players dont bother with the php exchanges no more. as well as the whole bitcoinica, intersango, mtgox, cryptorush, mintpal saga's the big players wont even bother day trading on exchanges.

thats why bitstamp and btc-e moved from well over 100k a day volume to under 25k a day volume.

so the mindset of viewing these exchanges as gospel measures needs to decrease, and many people need to start looking at the bigger picture.

EG if 20 people want bitcoins in your town and your the only one locally who has them.. then raise your prices on your local demand and for goodness sake stop using crappy exchanges to devalue your holdings..

learn the word 'bartering' and forget the words 'price fixing'.

the world has online gold exchanges, but do you honestly think that true gold holders trade at the price of the online exchanges.. no..
i dare you to go into a pawn shop or goldsmiths and demand a bar of gold at the market price. trust me, you wont get it.