THE ALT CURRENCIES BUBBLE IS BURSTING...

[barabbas]

man, you're pretty late.
The shit is worthless already. Can't be worse now.

It is about to be quite worse actually. In a hurry. Just watch.

[1714653435]

1714653435

[1714653435]

1714653435

[barabbas]

The answer is as simple as this: There's no BTC available. No liquid money in Alts.

So Ethereum collected what.... 13.000 BTC? (edit: 23,804 BTC)
SuperNet was uh... 5.000 BTC?
And even that shady BlockNet thing got 2000 BTC last time Iv'e read.

If that's an illiquid market, then I want to see the liquid one.

Everyone is fully invested in bags that hold losses from 70-90% and higher and expect rebounds to cut those losses somehow.

Are you possibly speaking just about yourself?
NXT assets did great - I have 500% from the last half year on average on them. Check out their mining assets - some still do 10% returns on a weekly basis!
Maybe you shouldn't have limited your view to strange new coin IPOs.

Just distance yourself from your current involvement and ask your common sense: Is DOGE worth $21 million? why? what can you do with DOGE?

Think about it this way: Microsoft just recently bought Minecraft for $2.5 BILLION! Why? Because of the active community - it is next to impossible to build this artificially. But it's worth ... well... billions!
Now you can about make an comparison to Doge - and if $20M is overvalued.

Else I can only talk about NXT - but if you look at the ecosystem around it... the services, the community and all the active devs... it is insane that it's valued only $20M. Any 1 year old startup business with those achievements would trade at 10 times that at bare minimum.

Very interesting observations, albeit short sighted I'm afraid: Even if those projects would have collected those amounts, which is VERY arguable, for AS YOU KNOW AND i HAVE THOROUGHLY EXPLAINED, IN MANY CASES IF NOT IN ALL, THE RIGHT HAND PAYS THE LEFT HAND, even if the amounts were legitimate -which they aren't- the liquidity available is not unfinishable. Those would have been the recipients of basically what was left. So there's NO MORE, ok? Hence all the rest of ICO's, some of them very interesting, collect nothing or next to nothing.

The NXT assets: So you are a long time investor and  you are still doing great? Like how great? Because those investing in golden boy James Lee's ventures, including NXT ventures, are doing quite poorly or late... and bound to do even worse. So maybe you were lucky to get in for next to nothing, congrats. They were luckier than you... you know, the ones that got the initial distribution of NEXT, the 73 lucky ones? That doesn't change the fact that the coin has recently lost half its value... and in my opinion, is about to be halved again... or worse.

Finally, your most interesting point, the purchase of Minecraft by Microsoft. Good point but not applicable: You see, 20 million people across the planet actually use Minecraft many times a day, every single day. Not one, not a single one, can buy practically anything with Doge. Not a single one. You see the difference? Instead of using Doge they are... guess what? playing Minecraft. I know you get the gist bof it. Of course users have a very significant and quite specific value, be it Alibaba or Google or YouTube or Instagram or Twitter or Facebook. NOT the DOGE or any other alt or crypto community. There's nothing to be used, nothing whatsoever.

And therein lays the problem... and your otherwise very interesting observations.

As for the actual usage of Next platform for real business, please do not tell me what can be done with the platform but actually what IS BEING done with it. I don't follow that too closely but I get a lot of otherwise unqualified comments to the absurdite and inefficiency of it all. Those bearer of such opinions, must be quite wrong, right? Exactly which business have you created on that platform and how successful have you been in this year?

[altcoinUK]

Thanks Barabbas for this thread! It's eye opening as always :-))) and hopefully the naive, wannabe be rich new crypto investors will start their journey into this market (and inevitable disappointments) by reading your fists post.

As for the prospects of digital currencies general, there are a very few concepts that due to their use case will survive. For example, Ethereum must have a place in technology world because it provide users with solutions to real business problems. Ethereum's smart contracts are useful in solving many real life business problems from autonomous companies to decentralize crowd funding -  in contrasts with the +500 BTC/LTC clone that are completely useless.
There are a few other interesting experiments that could be successful. Lately I am very interested in these projects

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=864895.0    

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=854280.0

This type of ideas that solves a real business problem in my opinion could be survivals. There is no chance any altcoins could compete with Bitcoin, and I expect that the surviving alt currencies will be specializing to areas like AI, IoT or recruitment.


 

   
[ANN] $XQN Quotient Financial Network | PoW Scrypt, PoS Blake-256 | High PoS
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=854299.0
    
$XAI Sapience AIFX - Decentralized AI | Crowdfund Til 11/26 | PRICE DROPPED
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=864895.0    


So are they working together or what ? Or is this one dev making 2 coins at the same time again ?

I am not sure to be honest and mainly I am interested in the concept instead of implementation details at this stage. I am not sure that the two particular coins that I quoted will be successful at all, what I tried to say that coins that address such use cases like AI or IoT, and solves problems could be the survivals.

[barabbas]

Thanks Barabbas for this thread! It's eye opening as always :-))) and hopefully the naive, wannabe be rich new crypto investors will start their journey into this market (and inevitable disappointments) by reading your fists post.

As for the prospects of digital currencies general, there are a very few concepts that due to their use case will survive. For example, Ethereum must have a place in technology world because it provide users with solutions to real business problems. Ethereum's smart contracts are useful in solving many real life business problems from autonomous companies to decentralize crowd funding -  in contrasts with the +500 BTC/LTC clone that are completely useless.
There are a few other interesting experiments that could be successful. Lately I am very interested in these projects

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=864895.0

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=854280.0

This type of ideas that solves a real business problem in my opinion could be survivals. There is no chance any altcoins could compete with Bitcoin, and I expect that the surviving alt currencies will be specializing to areas like AI, IoT or recruitment.


 

The way I see it, as you know, Ethereum is already owned by the real world, not by crypto alts enthusiasts. If the tech is usable, IBM or others will implement it along their blockchains and profit from it the old fashioned way. Let me be quite clear about this: NO DECENTRALIZED MARKET OF ANY KIND WILL BE ALLOWED BY LAW ENFORCEMENT ANYWHERE.. Decentralized smart contracts? I don't know about those. It could work but they solve only one part of a very complex operation that includes VERY centralized import/export laws and taxes and transportation. So yes, obviously the tech is valuable but of no real possibility of actual use in crypto, so why even bother: First get people to use crypto; then get those people to use alts instead of Bitcoin -good luck on that one-, and then tell me why would people choose to use Whatevercoin rather than Bitcoin... mind you, ALL tech will be open source and therefore available equally to Ethereum than to PESA...

Those two links that you have posted, number one are as far as they can possibly be from any even partial understanding as a use case scenario, from... well, anyone, let alone the people in crypto. They are software and hardware products. I don't know how advance the tech behind it or how marketable in a price to cost basis. That is a very different -and much more conventional- approach at your average business. I read, for instance, that one of the applications one of the guy's is selling is the ability to open a garage door for a cost of $5.00 per year... that is simply ridiculous. The tech exists, in many varieties, already implemented and distributed the world over and for much less than a subscription of $5.00 a year. Completely ridiculous. If you are going to come up with a "conventional" business to support a crypto alt project, first sell me the pen of the business with facts, figures, demographics, float of hit the pavement sellers (real ones, the ones you actually have to pay salary AND commissions) and budget for the whole shebang, otherwise you are just jerking off and not talking viable business.

The AI project and the impulses than somehow bring commissions or fess to the holders, I frankly did not get it. And you know the old adage: If you cannot explain clearly your business proposal in 3 minutes to anyone so they fully understand, you don't have a viable business.

As you know, having a viable business in the new trend behind crypto alts. BRO just brought it up and I still believe it can be a great idea with immediate use for the coins and guaranteed -well, somehow- increased valuation ... IF (huge IF) the underlying business is successful. They have come with a full blown online casino. Good luck with that. It isn't precisely a virgin field. Why would users go there and not to any of the about 3000 other already established casinos online, all of which accept bitcoin -and some other coins in some cases-? It will, naturally, depend on two things: promotion/ incentives to players and quality of the overall experience. It is quite difficult to break the habit of otherwise satisfied customers to try new environments. Especially in gambling/gaming. A lot of factors play a role, not the least of which is perceived "luck". Can it be done? Of course it can. But it a harrowing proposition.
Therefore, they collected 275 BTC. Not bad for just an idea... supported by a dozen celebrities in the World Poker Tour. And, IMO, as good as a collection as anyone else is ever going to get in crypto... unless the right hand is paying the left hand, of course.

[altcoinUK]

Let me think a bit about what you said :-))) because it make a lots of sense ... so I would have to re-read what the IBM chief scientist says about building blockchain based applications for the Internet of Things. Before I do my research and re-read all the materials here is how I see this (and it is very possible that I will change my mind after thinking a bit more about it).

As for the IoT, I think you are absolutely right, asking $5 subscription fee for opening a garage door is ridiculous and doesn't make sense, but I think what IBM and these few IoT coins say is, that the value is in selling the hardware services on a tokenized system (e.g. what VISA builds too by recognizing the value of the digital currency concept). I think IBM is interested because a blockchain enabled hardware could take payments and it seems to me IBM suspects even more value in the hardware management capability of the technology, namely that the peer to peer network allows secure hardware management. I could be wrong, but I think the fact that IBM see a business opportunity indicates that the tech solves an existing business problem. IBM want to charge $5 per year not for opening the garage door but for providing a system that allows you to manage your devices on the network. For example, assign the permission to anyone, while you are on a holiday. Let say I am having a holiday in Cyprus and I get a phone call that a repairman needs access to my garage in the UK, then I can assign that permission via a simple peer to peer application because the security is handled via the blockchain, and then the repair man can open the door using his android phone. Before he opens the door, to allow the repairman in, I can temporary disable the alarm system that is managed on the blockchain too. I think IBM is excited about the technology, because it allows the management and inter-operability for all home automation and industrial devices.

As for the AI, I like the idea, not because AI related services could be sold on the blockchain, such services could be sold everywhere, but the AI decision making process could be orchestrated on the blockchain. To describe a simple scenario, there are regional meteorology stations which gather data for wider spectrum forecast and a blockchain/smart contract system could be the platform to manage the forecast decision making process.

The BRO gambling use case definitely make sense, it will be interesting to see how it goes.

[barabbas]

There's (another) terrible misconception in all the potential ideal uses of crypto, smart contracts, etc. Most devs are focusing on ways in which the customer will pay for the goods or services, the provider/seller will get their payment and there are no returns, since the operation can't be cancelled.

Well, anyone who has ever procured a product or service very well knows that returns (and chargebacks) is a (huge) part of the business. You simply cannot eliminate them... nor you would want them because if there's a sure-fire way to a fail business is a string, even a small one, of unsatisfied customers. That's the absolute no-no on ANY business (legal ones, that is).

So you have, for the most part, geeks that have never worked a day in their lives, that have never had any money nor purchase anything other than a playstation, making decision about how successful business should be conducted in crypto that merchants have not even heard of and are already extremely wary of selling in BTC because, to preserve their minimal profits, they have to pay the fees -more than credit cards- to BitPay... It is a lose-lose-lose and then LOSE proposition. And one more reason why this hobby of nut miners is NEVER going to come forward in a significant manner in many years to come.

IBM, on the other hand, would implement the parts of the tech that are innovating and usable in their suite of products and services already commercialized.

And by the way, through the internet and with very basic applications, you can already do all of that that you mentioned, from your Ipad. From opening doors to set temperatures, record programs on your DVR, the temperature of your fridge and a lot more... all for free. Already. What was the use case for those, you were saying? It seems to me first generation when, the real world is already it is 7th or later iterations of the same thing... without additional costs.

[God27]

man, you're pretty late.
The shit is worthless already. Can't be worse now.

It is about to be quite worse actually. In a hurry. Just watch.

Yes it is, but when all these alts are sold down to 0, where are these people going to put their money next? XRP?

[Zer0Sum]

Let me be quite clear about this: NO DECENTRALIZED MARKET OF ANY KIND WILL BE ALLOWED BY LAW ENFORCEMENT ANYWHERE..

You are selling ANON Gen 2.0 platforms like NXT waaaay short...
When running on 100% anon crypto-currencies they will be unassailable.

You think LE will be able to shut down 1,000,000 NXT clients with the full blockchain...
When a little program like BitTorrent brought the music/movie/porn business to it's knees? 
(Despite Draconian measures by LE and the courts).

So you write off infinitely more powerful blockchain tech flooding the pipeline...
Because it's been abused to pull off ultra-sophisticated, centralized scams like BitShares and Etherium.

You need to get away from BitCoinTalk... and see what True Believers are building out there.

[Run Away Train]

Like anything else. Some coins will make it and become something and others will die and fade away. Do your own research and invest/daytrade what you think will make money. I do think 90% or more will end as fails tbh. 

[TheTribesman]

I stand firmly on the other side of the fence. I believe that scamcoins will eventually die and a few front-runners will emerge. This is what I think bagholders are counting on. They're backing their horses right now. We'll know the winners and losers by about 2017 onwards.

I take an extremely long-term view of crypotocurrencies. One year is NOTHING in technology terms. All that's happened in 2014 is people rushed into cryptos after a week of Litecoin madness in November 2013 and this drove the market into a feeding frenzy that lasted into early 2014. Cryptos started getting pumped out for those who missed out on the profits of Litecoin madness. Dogecoin was one of those coins. It was not the cause of the current flurry of ALTs. It started after a mad mad week in November last year following an edition of The Keiser Report (they started talking about BTC being gold and LTC being silver). So (spoetnik), blame Litecoin madness, not Dogecoin.

Here's to hoping that by the end of 2014 all the get rich quick brigade lose interest because of the current slump and things settle down. Then let the technology and services mature over the next few years, and the rubbish will get left by the side of the road. Once the ecosystem is consumer grade it'll start making inroads.

IMHO, the biggest hindrance right now is wallets and syncing. Until online wallets are proven secure, and accepted by users as such, QT wallets have to be used. QT wallets are definitely not consumer grade! Imagine grandma trying to recover her lost DOGE with only a wallet.dat file (and she probably wouldn't have even backed that up in the first place!!).

There's definitely a long way to go yet. A long way.

[lopalcar]

Finally, your most interesting point, the purchase of Minecraft by Microsoft. Good point but not applicable: You see, 20 million people across the planet actually use Minecraft many times a day, every single day. Not one, not a single one, can buy practically anything with Doge. Not a single one. You see the difference? Instead of using Doge they are... guess what? playing Minecraft. I know you get the gist bof it. Of course users have a very significant and quite specific value, be it Alibaba or Google or YouTube or Instagram or Twitter or Facebook. NOT the DOGE or any other alt or crypto community. There's nothing to be used, nothing whatsoever.

And therein lays the problem... and your otherwise very interesting observations.

As for the actual usage of Next platform for real business, please do not tell me what can be done with the platform but actually what IS BEING done with it. I don't follow that too closely but I get a lot of otherwise unqualified comments to the absurdite and inefficiency of it all. Those bearer of such opinions, must be quite wrong, right? Exactly which business have you created on that platform and how successful have you been in this year?

Nxt platform is being used by some interesting projects, for example, funding a game development "Lyth", instead of using other platforms as kickstarter. There is also being used by coinomat, a real bussines which pays weekly dividends and which is in expansion, it's also used for multigateway, which is the most secure way to trade bitcoins at the moment, also used by nxtty, the messaging app for android and IOS, and many other assets which although not give beneffits short term, is where people who believe in crypto invest for get this ideas developed, and correct me, but this ideas are much more serious than all the shit posted in this forum, all the james assets which you critic are at least in development "I'm personally not investing a lot in this assets, because I think that for when they start paying dividends, the nxt value could be much higher and I will never recover the nxt ammount invested", but I bought shares in other projects for which I don't even expect to get dividends but help fund them which would beneffit the whole system, for example the mentioned game or the consensus asset for make a scientific study of POS in nxt.
So as you can see, is being used currently for interesting things, and the potential uses are MUCH more, but for now, it only have one year and is doing most interesting things than bitcoin... when I download the most advanced bitcoin wallet, the most I can do is SEND COINS "incredible :O " and is 5 years old...
I'm not going to talk about other features which are coming or already in use, but there are many other example of things going on, when people realices that if they buy nxt they will get a bigger share than if they buy bitcoin price will go up very fast, but there is to much people trolling nxt, I personally don't mind the price yet, is a plattform very usable independently of the currency value.

Make me know your points against my thoughts for further discussion

[chicken65]

People should be aware of the alternate agenda here.
These guys despise coins they cannot mine.
ALWAYS keep in mind the miners have been fleecing from day one - and make no mistake it was/is hugely lucrative providing you have access to the  hardware. I know one guy who in less than 18 months has made over 2500 btc from mining alts. Thats just one guy remember.  He was incredibly fortunate to have access to many networked computers through his job - and he's not alone. Many of them do this after bringing the potential earnings to their real world bosses.  The solo miner or investor  has no chance against them. 
For some reason having your own money printing press has never been deemed a scam.    Many of these coins are 90% mined within 3-6 hours. Miners are always the biggest dumpers.  Their closed shop has been broken down (only a little mind you) and their not happy.  These guys project themselves as benevolent can do no wrong angels. But just like the scammers they have their eye on the $$$ and their aim is the end of pre mined coins.

PS
Barabass and Spoetnik are on someones payroll. But its up to them to prove me wrong/

[chicken65]

whilst Im here

Spoetnik is a really nasty piece of work. A sorry excuse for a human being who often dishes out death threats. Anything this piece of filth says really has to be ignored. The jury is still out on Barabbas.

[cellard]

I have been saying this for some time.. glad guys are seeing what is actually happening !
recognizing we have a shitty situation that continues to get worse is the first step in moving forward.

I'd say the decline started when Doge coin became popular..
It triggered a wave of cloning we never seen before !

Then we went to anon coin gimmicks then IPO style shit coins.

If i can't mine the coin on launch i won't touch it .

so..
I don't think it's dead and there is nothing that can be done.
I think if we had 51% or greater of the Altcoin population admit this stuff is fucked up we can do things to improve the situation.
But first step is admitting there is a problem and *most people refuse to admit it.
They keep crying it's just a phase and things will magically fixz itself later for some magical reason.
NOPE.
Things don't get better for no reason.. if it does it's because because we worked hard to make it better !
And i have been busting my ass working Overtime to make things better as i endlessly get told i am FUD'ing or just jealous i didn't get in on some scam token etc..
AUR is a good example i could have made around 75 grand think on that and i stopped and thought about it and thought i just can't..
I can't take part in scam coins that go against my beliefs and philosophy on this stuff.. i have limits and shit like AUR is the line.
So i have been doing my part and if it gets better it's because guys like me worked our ass off to make things better
and some of us did not jump on the greedy cash grab supporting scam coins for $$$
While other guys worked hard to make things worse..

Would you go as far as to say Etherum is part of this series of gimmick coins?

[lopalcar]

I completely agree with you chicken65, this blaming to not mining coins going going on in this forum is in part obvious given the fact that is the birthpace of the miner mentality, I don't understand how the fuck they say that mining is fair... for who? For people which have access to hardware and cheap energy? Many nonsenses in their statements, they should admit mining is as unfair as any other thing... Each day I'm believing more seriously that for a system progress it needed a group of very rich guys with the most interest in the success of the system. You know what happen when you give things for free and to everyone, there will be to many dumbs which will fuck up the whole system... Specially in the crypto world where 90% is here for quick profit

[gjhiggins]

The AI project and the impulses than somehow bring commissions or fees to the holders, I frankly did not get it.

I'd be very surprised if you did, it's unadulterated gobbledygook.

Cheers

Graham

[nutildah]

About time people started catching on.

The problem remains the same: there needs to be a REASON for people to use your stupid coin. Otherwise its just a digital POG.

[barabbas]

Would you go as far as to say Etherum is part of this series of gimmick coins?

No. And I believe I have posted already somewhere that I believe Ethereum is owned, mainly, by conventional corporation which expect the final tech to provide applications that they can use in conventional tech.

[barabbas]

Finally, your most interesting point, the purchase of Minecraft by Microsoft. Good point but not applicable: You see, 20 million people across the planet actually use Minecraft many times a day, every single day. Not one, not a single one, can buy practically anything with Doge. Not a single one. You see the difference? Instead of using Doge they are... guess what? playing Minecraft. I know you get the gist bof it. Of course users have a very significant and quite specific value, be it Alibaba or Google or YouTube or Instagram or Twitter or Facebook. NOT the DOGE or any other alt or crypto community. There's nothing to be used, nothing whatsoever.

And therein lays the problem... and your otherwise very interesting observations.

As for the actual usage of Next platform for real business, please do not tell me what can be done with the platform but actually what IS BEING done with it. I don't follow that too closely but I get a lot of otherwise unqualified comments to the absurdite and inefficiency of it all. Those bearer of such opinions, must be quite wrong, right? Exactly which business have you created on that platform and how successful have you been in this year?

Nxt platform is being used by some interesting projects, for example, funding a game development "Lyth", instead of using other platforms as kickstarter. There is also being used by coinomat, a real bussines which pays weekly dividends and which is in expansion, it's also used for multigateway, which is the most secure way to trade bitcoins at the moment, also used by nxtty, the messaging app for android and IOS, and many other assets which although not give beneffits short term, is where people who believe in crypto invest for get this ideas developed, and correct me, but this ideas are much more serious than all the shit posted in this forum, all the james assets which you critic are at least in development "I'm personally not investing a lot in this assets, because I think that for when they start paying dividends, the nxt value could be much higher and I will never recover the nxt ammount invested", but I bought shares in other projects for which I don't even expect to get dividends but help fund them which would beneffit the whole system, for example the mentioned game or the consensus asset for make a scientific study of POS in nxt.
So as you can see, is being used currently for interesting things, and the potential uses are MUCH more, but for now, it only have one year and is doing most interesting things than bitcoin... when I download the most advanced bitcoin wallet, the most I can do is SEND COINS "incredible :O " and is 5 years old...
I'm not going to talk about other features which are coming or already in use, but there are many other example of things going on, when people realices that if they buy nxt they will get a bigger share than if they buy bitcoin price will go up very fast, but there is to much people trolling nxt, I personally don't mind the price yet, is a plattform very usable independently of the currency value.

Make me know your points against my thoughts for further discussion

Again the point here (the points you make, actually) is that there's NOTHING of any conventional value that in any significant way, is traded on any of those initiatives. It's next which buys nxt ventures, which can be sold for BTC which can be used to buy next. going on circles and going nowhere. You cannot actually trade them for dollars oRr any other fiat or perceived holder of wealth such a precious metals or stones. And those "assets" give you "dividends" that are, again, next. Or Atomic. Or supernet. Or any other shit... no business is generated. No traffic/advertising, no sales of any goods or services outside of overpriced crypto-friendly shit no one in the real world wants. It's like playing with marvels that go from one pocket to another and never serve any purpose than the actual playing with them. Children's games.

[finlon]

You will get miexed views about this thread, but yes it is happening. Not necessarily for the good or the bad, as they were always good for experimentation.