IOU-BLoC (Business Lines of Credit) [Prequel thread - probing for interest]

[BrightAnarchist]

Fantastic idea. A much needed service for many well established and trustworthy borrowers.

The rates would have to be high enough, however, that biz uses it for its intended purpose. Otherwise someone could just borrow to the hilt and arb the interest rate.

[1713891441]

1713891441

[Kluge]

Development is humming right along. 

Here's my ugly-ass mock-up of yore intended for the dev (view-only - I don't believe it allows you to read comments regarding hover link text and some other explanations) : https://docs.google.com/presentation/pub?id=15XarwZgJZtEt2Uvq_AR7Hz4XPeYu9w0dugo_dq-xDy8&start=false&loop=false&delayms=3000

Some of that's obviously been changed, and it shouldn't be considered final, or even a "Darn Good" idea of what the site will do or look like at launch. There is no short-term intent to deal with USD at all, for example. However, you could request a BTC loan, then use IOU exchange services (I'll surprise the dev with plans for integration, later) for near-immediate USD deposits into various US banks (PNC and ING on the short-list, feel free to make other requests -- NO BofA!) and CUs (so long as they support Shared Branching). Some additional surprising withdrawal and deposit options (think physical!) will likely be added within six to twelve months. Account security as implied on the site will not be what is used.

I still haven't talked to Tosaki about integrating charity functions... Trying to figure out where I fleshed that idea out a bit. I think the bulk of it is probably buried somewhere in Skype. I'll look for it tomorrow when I wake up.


Cheers,
Ben

[TangibleCryptography]

Interesting.  I assume the "terms" page is simply a placeholder?  I can't imagine anyone accepting to signing over all legal rights.

For TangibleCryptography, the public disclosure of accounting ledger is a non-starter.  We have no issues with disclosing that to someone under an NDA but monthly detailed accounting to the public?  To include our competitors?  To include our clients ("hey this is exactly after cost how much TC profited off you")? Never going to happen.   I can't see any serious business accepting that requirement either.  Now summarized monthly reports to the public and full details to entity under NDA (w/ penalties for breach to include "accidental breach" and/or "hacked")?  Maybe.

[Kluge]

Interesting.  I assume the "terms" page is simply a placeholder?  I can't imagine anyone accepting to signing over all legal rights.

For TangibleCryptography, the public disclosure of accounting ledger is a non-starter.  We have no issues with disclosing that to someone under an NDA but monthly detailed accounting to the public?  To include our competitors?  To include our clients ("hey this is exactly after cost how much TC profited off you")? Never going to happen.   I can't see any serious business accepting that requirement either.  Now summarized monthly reports to the public and full details to entity under NDA (w/ penalties for breach to include "accidental breach" and/or "hacked")?  Maybe.

Yes, ToS is a placeholder 

Public disclosure of business will not be a requirement if there is not enough demand, but it's something I'd really like to encourage in the community, but maybe I'm just throwing a tantrum. It takes us a month to make 10% on a "sale" at pretty darn high risk much of the time, and we need to disclose what we're making every time. Meanwhile, a non-finance goods/service provider can take a 30-70% margin and are never called usurious cunts because nobody even knows what their margin exactly is. 

[BrightAnarchist]

How is BLoC going? Do you know when you will launch?

[Kluge]

How is BLoC going? Do you know when you will launch?

It's about 21-40 days away from a "closed beta" launch, and maybe 30-60 days from an open launch, which is when it'll enter "Phase 2" of development which'll add a bunch of functionality beyond loans and deposits I did not originally outline.

[Kluge]

I've submitted crude mockups to tosaki of BitMit with regards to how I'd like to see charitable giving implemented so charities actually USE BTC instead of cashing out for USD. Will update if I hear anything.

Cheers,
Ben

[Kluge]

Tosaki will be away for a while, but he sounds interested. I need to re-collect my thoughts on that idea... "BitMit Charity" is very unlikely to be ready by the time of IOUCoin's beta launch. However, I think it'll be implemented eventually, and I'm excited about it.


Beyond that, I need to figure out what to have the dev work on once "Phase 1" (the stuff in the mockup) is complete. There are a whole bunch of experiments which could be tried...

1) Implement, distribute, advertise centralized "IOU-BTC" debt/currency units. Literally, an IOU based on a depositor's BTC deposited, backed by my credit and assertion that a depositor holds an xBTC CD maturing on some future date. There are a few different ways it could be implemented... A depositor could sell shares of their deposit to a company or individual where I'll send x shares' worth of the deposit to the person who bought the notes from the depositor, the notes could be sold to the depositor and used as a representative currency where the amount of BTC can be redeemed any time after the CD matures, or we could just issue them as .8%/wk bond units where they'd be a predictably deflationary medium of exchange which could be redeemed after a year or something like that for the proper amount of BTC. I haven't thought too much on this... it sounds pretty dangerous if implemented improperly, and may not be used if the website does not have public pentesting done, at least. Capital required to establish trust (independent, professional audits - professional pen-testing with results released publicly - open-source software) would be too great, but maybe I'm overestimating how much trust needs to be established beyond "it's worked for x months without issue, so it's probably pretty safe."

2) Implementing, advertising "Democratic Deposits" -- depositors would be allowed to choose exactly where their deposit goes, with restrictions (a choice must be made at the time of the deposit, and must be from a list of opportunities I present). With just that info, it doesn't sound at all beneficial to me, but perhaps I could give interest & insurance rates based on the choice they select. If you choose an opportunity I consider low-risk, you receive reduced interest, but your deposit is fully insured (or perhaps even over-insured). If you choose a high-risk, high-yield opportunity, you receive significantly more interest, but your deposit will only be partially insured or completely uninsured if that opportunity/lendee defaults. Nobody would be forced to take part of "Democratic Deposits," you could get the general rate by depositing in the BDK general fund, with deposits guaranteed, as all are currently.

3) Focus on miners, implement mining pool for data mining. I believe they'll be my bread & butter, especially as ASICs come into the game and people seek to upgrade. A LOT of useful information could be gathered by asking a miner to mine at the "IOU pool" for 30 minutes prior to receiving a loan offer, which would result in significantly lower rates for them, and a higher level of confidence from me that they won't default. If the miner ends up rejecting the offer I submit to them, I get to keep the 30 miinutes' worth of mining income, which'll probably be nothing unless the pool acts as a pass-through, GPUMax-style. This might be expensive to implement - I have no idea.

4) Implement Ghetto P&P Exchange into IOUcoin site. I'm not particularly interested in this, beyond just having information listed in a more readable manner to only depositors, instead of having to deal with BBCode and the service listed publicly.

5) Something you suggest?

[Kluge]

I asked for a quote from http://cspixelfoundry.com/ after enjoying some of their work -- Idunno if my budget's reasonable or not. From speaking with others, it sounds like I'm "in the ballpark," though I'm definitely in the low end of that ballpark.

[BitcoinINV]

I like this Idea seems like it will be a great service to the community.

[Kluge]

No updates in a while. We're getting close. I think I'm going to tell the designers I'm not currently interested but will re-examine. There's too much uncertainty with how thing's will change with Pirate gone - whatever "gone" even means -- I don't want to over-invest without knowing what's happening.

IOUCoin is getting very close to a beta launch, now. I'm hoping by the end of the week, but could certainly be later. Upon launch, I'd like to invite interested participants to take away the dev's bonus.

He will be allotted a 50BTC completion bonus. For up to two weeks after beta launch, two selected pen-testers with code (PM/Skype me with references, please!) and users in general would be appreciated to break the site, find security holes, and look around for minor stuff we messed up.

The rewards will be roughly as follows:
5-10BTC = Major business-breaking flaw which has been demonstrated to work. This would include being able to log into others' accounts, using our hot wallet somehow without authorization, being able to send other users' emails, any db compromises, being able to change your balance, being able to delete the "hot" site.
3-5BTC = Business-breaking flaw which could reasonably happen, but is only theoretical and is unable to be demonstrated. This would include any 5-10BTC flaws which have evidence of being able to be done, but have not been satisfactorily demonstrated.
1-3BTC = Consequential, but not devastatingly-bad breaks, theoretical or proven. This would include being able to "deface" the website, finding the IP address of our BTC client, finding a way to DoS our email server, being able to place fake withdrawal requests which would be handled manually, account errors, insecure resources.
.1-1BTC = Cosmetic stuff, unclear phrasing, minor site errors ("I get a 404 error when clicking the credit rating link on so-and-so"). Please don't ask me for coins because you found an unnecessary comma or "that" somewhere.

If the completion bonus is fully run out, I'll pay out-of-pocket from non-allocated funds. Supplied fixes will be appreciated with gratuities out of my pocket (just don't go crazy - I ain't rich!). If you've proven ability to do something which'd be catastrophic (able to somehow do more damage than the hot wallet's worth [100BTC max]), extra funds will be provided, probably based on whatever you ransom the solution for.


ETA: "BitMit Charity" will likely become a reality, but it's unlikely to be ready by 2013. I'm considering temporary solutions.

ETA2: I will not be requiring public disclosure of finances. However, I'll still require them, and that'll stay between us.

[TangibleCryptography]

ETA2: I will not be requiring public disclosure of finances. However, I'll still require them, and that'll stay between us.

Glad to hear it.  We have secured LoC both in USD and BTC from private lenders.  There is a willingness out there among lenders for more realistic interest rates.  I think your platform could move bitcoin lending to the next level.