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Author Topic: ASIC = The end of decentralized mining  (Read 21414 times)
Luceo
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September 18, 2012, 04:32:58 AM
 #221

Right now if I want even the cheapest dedicated miner I need about $500 for a CPU, RAM, GPU, PSU etc.

I then need to be able to deal with the heat produced by another computer, storing another computer and to have the technical skill and knowledge to set up an OS, keep the thing overclocked right, etc.

Once BFL arrives on the scene, I spend $300 and I need 2 USB ports. No outlets, no overclocking, very little heat. I can leave my miners running at 9W, using very little energy and hashing away for me without preventing me working on my computer.

Which do you think is better for the casual, decentralized,miner?

Your argument is like suggesting that the personal computer was bad for decentralized computer. We're replacing lumbering pieces of hardware forced into a niche with incredibly affordable dedicated hardware designed for the purpose it's serving.

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September 18, 2012, 10:21:15 PM
 #222

Right now if I want even the cheapest dedicated miner I need about $500 for a CPU, RAM, GPU, PSU etc.

I then need to be able to deal with the heat produced by another computer, storing another computer and to have the technical skill and knowledge to set up an OS, keep the thing overclocked right, etc.

Once BFL arrives on the scene, I spend $300 and I need 2 USB ports. No outlets, no overclocking, very little heat. I can leave my miners running at 9W, using very little energy and hashing away for me without preventing me working on my computer.

Which do you think is better for the casual, decentralized,miner?

Your argument is like suggesting that the personal computer was bad for decentralized computer. We're replacing lumbering pieces of hardware forced into a niche with incredibly affordable dedicated hardware designed for the purpose it's serving.

that is a very good point.

Heck, if the jalapeno truly only uses a teeny tiny amount of power it would be easy for a huge number of people to own one or two and contribute.

However unless the price of a BTC keeps going up, the profitability of doing so will eventually decline enough to dissuade the "masses".

If you enjoyed the advice I gave, feel free to toss over some loose change Smiley
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September 28, 2012, 04:31:52 PM
 #223

the cheap ASIC will be distributed all around the world. it will be very decentralized.

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September 28, 2012, 04:33:08 PM
 #224

Right now if I want even the cheapest dedicated miner I need about $500 for a CPU, RAM, GPU, PSU etc.

I then need to be able to deal with the heat produced by another computer, storing another computer and to have the technical skill and knowledge to set up an OS, keep the thing overclocked right, etc.

Once BFL arrives on the scene, I spend $300 and I need 2 USB ports. No outlets, no overclocking, very little heat. I can leave my miners running at 9W, using very little energy and hashing away for me without preventing me working on my computer.

Which do you think is better for the casual, decentralized,miner?

Your argument is like suggesting that the personal computer was bad for decentralized computer. We're replacing lumbering pieces of hardware forced into a niche with incredibly affordable dedicated hardware designed for the purpose it's serving.

+1

More importantly,it is very likely that the $300 will be reduced to $20-30 in less than 18 months.

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September 28, 2012, 04:33:34 PM
 #225

the cheap ASIC will be distributed all around the world. it will be very decentralized.
Exactly this. Thousands of people are going to be running them.  Sure, it won't be every person in the world like it can be now (with using GPU's), but everyone will certainly have a chance to purchase one.
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September 29, 2012, 10:11:54 PM
 #226

the cheap ASIC will be distributed all around the world. it will be very decentralized.
Exactly this. Thousands of people are going to be running them.  Sure, it won't be every person in the world like it can be now (with using GPU's), but everyone will certainly have a chance to purchase one.

Essentially yes. My thought is that at the very beginning, ASIC power will be centralized to a group of people (maybe a couple hundred), but just like with GPUs I'm sure it'll spread extremely quickly over 12 months. The majority of people would invest in a Jalapeno or two at 3.5GH/s (or whatever the equivalent is for other ASIC companies), but the dedicated Bitcoiners would go with Singles...and the rich with Mini Rigs Tongue

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October 05, 2012, 09:45:47 PM
 #227

More funny people on this forum ... govs backed by bankers to buy hardware to combat Bitcoin, LOL, I can't stop laughing!
It seems many of you here are unaware of diversity of "weapons" which lie at disposal of obvious enemies of Bitcoin. It's very
possible Bitcoin is already overtaken by those entities.

[sarcasm] Oh my god, you're so right! Bitcoin has grown so incredibly vast and powerful, it will definitely be targeted by major countries around the world. [/sarcasm]

Bitcoin has a total economy value of, what, a bit over $100 million? The world's GDP is around $70 trillion, which puts bitcoin's worldly influence at .000143% ...it would mean absolutely nothing if Bitcoin grew two-fold or disappeared tomorrow.


Side note: Sorry guys, I didn't mean to feed the troll. Sometimes I just like their reactions though Grin

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October 06, 2012, 02:47:51 AM
 #228


Do you REALLY think bankers, people who create money out of thin air, give a shit about AMOUNT of money? It's about control.

It's also about convenience though.  If I don't have to go to some weird, offsite, super sketchy-sounding 3rd party like Liberty Reserve and pay fees just to turn some of my USD into BTC, that's a big plus.  Creating BTC out of nowhere is slower at turning USD into BTC (buy the hardware, mine the coins) but much better sounding.  A small but steady stream of BTC would be quite nice.
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October 06, 2012, 09:05:11 PM
 #229

I think ASIC's will mess with the basic principle of economics.
Demand and supply, supply will raise a lot because of these ASIC miners, so the demand has to raise in the same proportion or the break-even-price will drop.
Conclussion: The value of bitcoins will decrease.
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October 06, 2012, 10:00:42 PM
 #230

I think ASIC's will mess with the basic principle of economics.
Demand and supply, supply will raise a lot because of these ASIC miners, so the demand has to raise in the same proportion or the break-even-price will drop.
Conclussion: The value of bitcoins will decrease.

the supply does not change with more mining-power.
in fact the supply lowers at december because of the protocol (but this has nothing to do with hashrate)
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October 06, 2012, 10:14:32 PM
 #231

Comparing to real world example, good diamond or platinum mines are few and far between, mining is much more centralized and monopolized.

Gold and silver mining on the other hand, is much more decentralized. This probably helped them being popularized as monetary metals.

Luckily, there's Litecoin. In the future most likely there will be other algorithms to level the play field.
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October 07, 2012, 05:04:03 PM
 #232

I think ASIC's will mess with the basic principle of economics.
Demand and supply, supply will raise a lot because of these ASIC miners, so the demand has to raise in the same proportion or the break-even-price will drop.
Conclussion: The value of bitcoins will decrease.

the supply does not change with more mining-power.
in fact the supply lowers at december because of the protocol (but this has nothing to do with hashrate)
Oh I overlooked the fact that blocks generate each 10 minutes.
But won't the difficulty raise a lot then, which means small miners won't be able to get a good profit?
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October 08, 2012, 07:42:23 PM
 #233

I think ASIC's will mess with the basic principle of economics.
Demand and supply, supply will raise a lot because of these ASIC miners, so the demand has to raise in the same proportion or the break-even-price will drop.
Conclussion: The value of bitcoins will decrease.

the supply does not change with more mining-power.
in fact the supply lowers at december because of the protocol (but this has nothing to do with hashrate)
Oh I overlooked the fact that blocks generate each 10 minutes.
But won't the difficulty raise a lot then, which means small miners won't be able to get a good profit?

Yes. Unless you have massive GPU / FPGA farm or ASICs, you'll be out of race.
Aren't we able to serve shares at the same difficulty as today but with the only exception that the # of shares needed will increased giantly.

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October 09, 2012, 12:31:04 AM
 #234

Once BFL arrives on the scene, I spend $300 and I need 2 USB ports. No outlets, no overclocking, very little heat. I can leave my miners running at 9W,

No, you need 4 USB ports and they better not be on the same circuit and they better not share 1 circuit (almost all do).  I hope you have an MSI motherboard that's 2 or less years old Tongue That or a pretty high end powered USB hub.  I can't wait to see just how many people are thoroughly disappointed by their melted front USB headers, the device powering down constantly, their mouse randomly cutting out, and their computer restarting randomly from the insane (in USB terms) power draw that just 1 Jalapeno will cause.
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October 09, 2012, 01:23:05 PM
 #235

Once BFL arrives on the scene, I spend $300 and I need 2 USB ports. No outlets, no overclocking, very little heat. I can leave my miners running at 9W,

No, you need 4 USB ports and they better not be on the same circuit and they better not share 1 circuit (almost all do).  I hope you have an MSI motherboard that's 2 or less years old Tongue That or a pretty high end powered USB hub.  I can't wait to see just how many people are thoroughly disappointed by their melted front USB headers, the device powering down constantly, their mouse randomly cutting out, and their computer restarting randomly from the insane (in USB terms) power draw that just 1 Jalapeno will cause.
+1

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October 09, 2012, 01:26:41 PM
 #236

We're replacing lumbering pieces of hardware forced into a niche with incredibly affordable dedicated hardware designed for the purpose it's serving.

... which is EXACTLY the reason why less and less ordinary people will start mining. First it was just ordinary computer, something
almost everyone had at the time, than it was computer with good GPU, than it was FPGA. It still worked fine because FPGAs were still
not so cheap and faster than GPU rigs to push them from scene. But now with cheap and super fast ASICs, mining means investing in
hardware that serves absolutely no purpose other than rising hash rate, and does not really guarantee return of investments. Go out
on fucking street and try to recruit random people, you'll see what they think of your "amazing deal".

There was a time when Bitcoin had bright future, but greedy stupid unenlightened self-interest bastards decided they want more for
themself and less for others. Idea of recruiting as many miners as possible instead of rising individual hash rates wasn't probably even
considered, or it was but sounded like major nightmare.

Since I like the idea of Bitcoin and I don't like what most of you turned it into, I'll say it loud and clear = FUCK YOU, RETARDS!

You are oblivious of so many important things. Justice is in the fact you can't buy that what you miss with your stupid earned money.
I couldn't agree with you more, man.

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October 10, 2012, 05:00:18 AM
 #237

Quote
Demand and supply, supply will raise a lot because of these ASIC miners
I think my head just exploded.

Btw I was wrong Tongue you don't need 4 USB ports, you actually need a better computer Tongue So 5v, 500ma (aka 2.5W) is THE spec for USB.  That means if you've got a laptop, I absolutely guarantee that's what it is and it's usually in pairs.  That means 2.5W over 2 adjacent USBs since they use the same wiring.  Trust me, I use external hard drive enclosures and hard drive adapters all the time and this is a big problem on hundreds of laptops.

If it's a regular PC from Dell or HP or one of those losers, it's very likely also exactly those specs.  The Jalapeno allegedly draws 4.5W.  That means it'd draw 90% power from both USBs combined if they combine perfectly and don't overheat and don't share a circuit (that's not real common) and that's if you connected a y-cable connector with the data pins removed from the 2nd USB head.  So then your quite possibly 28 gauge cables feeding the USB port have to not melt so I hope your case was expensive if you're using the front USBs.

Then you have to never vary the usage of any part on the motherboard other than the CPU which has its own dedicated power circuit.  Every board is different but a sudden draw on the sound port for example to play an song at full amplification could dip the voltage down below 5V for a split second and disrupt the Jalapeno.

JUST KIDDING!  You can't play sound at all Tongue at that power draw level, the Jalapeno will send electrical noise back down the USB line and amplify the crap out of it on the audio circuit that it leaks into on even medium end boards, turning all music into crap.  Anyone who's ever used USB powered speakers knows what I'm talking about.  Theoretically the speakers can send interference back down the same line and affect USB power but that's less likely.  I might shoot a video of just how bad this really is on one of the brand new computers I built with a high end motherboard.

Then you better not have a cheap codegen or Gigabyte case for example or they like to build up static along their improperly grounded front USB ports which causes voltage variation and noise and other chaos that would affect such a sensitive chip as the Jalapeno's.

New MSI motherboards, most ASUS motherboard, some Gigabyte ones too I think have a "supercharge" feature that can run like 5 amps through a USB port to charge a phone or other device so that at least takes away the melted wire and electrical limitations problems.  Hope your computer is brand new! lol.

Or

you can just use a powered USB hub that guarantees 2.5W+ per individual port.  In other words, order one Tongue
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October 10, 2012, 02:05:43 PM
 #238

Btw I was wrong Tongue you don't need 4 USB ports, you actually need a better computer Tongue So 5v, 500ma (aka 2.5W) is THE spec for USB.  That means if you've got a laptop, I absolutely guarantee that's what it is and it's usually in pairs.  That means 2.5W over 2 adjacent USBs since they use the same wiring.  Trust me, I use external hard drive enclosures and hard drive adapters all the time and this is a big problem on hundreds of laptops.

If it's a regular PC from Dell or HP or one of those losers, it's very likely also exactly those specs.  The Jalapeno allegedly draws 4.5W.  That means it'd draw 90% power from both USBs combined if they combine perfectly and don't overheat and don't share a circuit (that's not real common) and that's if you connected a y-cable connector with the data pins removed from the 2nd USB head.  So then your quite possibly 28 gauge cables feeding the USB port have to not melt so I hope your case was expensive if you're using the front USBs.

Then you have to never vary the usage of any part on the motherboard other than the CPU which has its own dedicated power circuit.  Every board is different but a sudden draw on the sound port for example to play an song at full amplification could dip the voltage down below 5V for a split second and disrupt the Jalapeno.

JUST KIDDING!  You can't play sound at all Tongue at that power draw level, the Jalapeno will send electrical noise back down the USB line and amplify the crap out of it on the audio circuit that it leaks into on even medium end boards, turning all music into crap.  Anyone who's ever used USB powered speakers knows what I'm talking about.  Theoretically the speakers can send interference back down the same line and affect USB power but that's less likely.  I might shoot a video of just how bad this really is on one of the brand new computers I built with a high end motherboard.

Interesting. I have a 2 year old, low end, Gigabyte motherboard in a cheap $40 case...yet I manage to charge my GPS, phone, and iTouch all over USB and all at the same time. By your logic, my computer should have exploded by now.

Something tells me your math is off...

you can just use a powered USB hub that guarantees 2.5W+ per individual port.  In other words, order one Tongue

This, however, is the best idea under any scenario Smiley

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October 10, 2012, 06:13:16 PM
 #239

In the end, buying a few female USB-ports, hooking them up with a transformer, a 5 volt regulator and a few capicitors and you can have simple and cheap USB powered board.
Then you just connect the data transfer lines to the computer and you're set!
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October 11, 2012, 03:37:12 AM
 #240

So many arguments assuming the fact that bitcoin is only an investment for miners;

Bitcoin is a currency or good exchange medium and it's not just an investment; some miners want to mine their own bitcoins and not just buy them outright.

There's the learning, excitement and potential gains of doing it yourself and also helping with the network

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