Changes to the Alogrithm Prohibited or disputed?

[Flashman]

Clue, if you take one pair of wheels off a car and replace them with a single wheel, it becomes a tricycle, no matter how much you want to still call it a car.

[inBitweTrust]

Clue, if you take one pair of wheels off a car and replace them with a single wheel, it becomes a tricycle, no matter how much you want to still call it a car.

I get it that you think 100% proof of work is fundamental to bitcoin. That is fine. That what this discussion was all about. To determine how many people believe this and otherwise. Regardless, it has nothing to do with alt coins as we are talking about how Bitcoin is defined and Bitcoins properties.

[raskul]

for the same reason there is still a 'simple machines forum' logo at the top right of the forum pages - becasue moderators don't really give a fuck, and most likely can't read.

- deleted -

What is simple machines?

There is some controversy a while ago regarding this forum and the intended 1 million dollars to "upgrade" it:

https://bitcointa.lk/threads/questions-to-theymos-about-the-1-000-000-forum-software-project.256309/

I am split on this as I can see great value in an new open source forum project but the way it was handled was anything but ideal.

completely off topic now, so i won't comment further.

[devphp]

Are you trying to suggest you are neutral on this subject matter and have posted positive aspects of PoW in the last year within this forum?

Yes, please search my posts for Myriadcoin, I've always supported its idea. It was designed to fix Bitcoin's flaw of centralization and 51% attack. Here is my most recent post on it:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=855877.msg9534178#msg9534178

If Bitcoiners truely cared about technology and making PoW as secure as possible, there you go, a fine example of how Bitcoin code can be modified or Myriadcoin can be new Bitcoin. But no, bitcoin miners only care that they recoup their ASIC investments, and that's understandable and all, but when they try to cover these vested interests with false claims that PoW is secure and PoS is not, moreover, when they claim that Bitcoin implementation of PoW including the large but centralized mining network is the most secure and oh, so fair, this just stinks of bull.

Myriadcoin is a prime example of how PoW can be made an order of magnitude more secure, but wait, then those sha256 ASIC farms become unprofitable. I am all for the most secure technology, but Bitcoin just doesn't have that security any more. If it was converted to something like Myriadcoin (code), now that would be a different matter. I have been supportive of Myriadcoin technology for quite a while. I don't own Myriadcoin, I did own some in the past. I just don't see miners caring about technology, that's why I think PoW is a short-term play, and that's exactly why nothing will change in Bitcoin algorithm.

[Este Nuno]

I can't believe this thread was moved to the alt section. This forum is unbelieveable.

[cryptogeeknext]

Clue, if you take one pair of wheels off a car and replace them with a single wheel, it becomes a tricycle, no matter how much you want to still call it a car.

Good one

What is simple machines?

Bitcoin and PoW is as simple as you can get, hence the forum logo.

I can't believe this thread was moved to the alt section. This forum is unbelieveable.

Moving this thread around is a way for information to spread. People need to be educated.

[inBitweTrust]

I can't believe this thread was moved to the alt section. This forum is unbelieveable.

At least it wasn't deleted, but I have yet to still hear a rational reason why a thread that has nothing to do with alts coming from someone who has no interest in discussing alts was moved to the alt section.

Moving this thread around is a way for information to spread. People need to be educated.

This topic has nothing to do with Altcoins and thus categorically doesn't belong here and has no use to people searching here. We all know it was moved here to die in the swamp of posts. 

[cryptogeeknext]

I can't believe this thread was moved to the alt section. This forum is unbelieveable.

At least it wasn't deleted, but I have yet to still hear a rational reason why a thread that has nothing to do with alts coming from someone who has no interest in discussing alts was moved to the alt section.

Moving this thread around is a way for information to spread. People need to be educated.

This topic has nothing to do with Altcoins and thus categorically doesn't belong here and has no use to people searching here. We all know it was moved here to die in the swamp of posts.  

I don't know the actual rationale for moving this thread, but twiddling with various aspects of Bitcoin's fundamental design is exactly the point of many different alts.

[mhps]

I can't believe this thread was moved to the alt section. This forum is unbelieveable.

yep. sign of bitcoin going stagnant.

[cryptogeeknext]

for the same reason there is still a 'simple machines forum' logo at the top right of the forum pages...

I can't believe this thread was moved to the alt section. This forum is unbelieveable.

yep. sign of bitcoin going stagnant.

If you look at the forum logo, you will see that Bitcoin provides a balance point between money and control, as it allows competition for both to continue indefinitely. Rules of the game need to be stable and not change at a whim of those who don't feel competitive. You are free to create other rules and play other games though.

Bitcoin is a Proof of World system. The World is a fundamentally neutral place, as it is just a mirror. If you don't like a reflection, you don't go and change the mirror, you change yourself.

[mhps]

for the same reason there is still a 'simple machines forum' logo at the top right of the forum pages...

I can't believe this thread was moved to the alt section. This forum is unbelieveable.

yep. sign of bitcoin going stagnant.

If you look at the forum logo, you will see that Bitcoin provides a balance point between money and control, as it allows competition for both to continue indefinitely. Rules of the game need to be stable and not change at a whim of those who don't feel competitive. You are free to create other rules and play other games though.

Bitcoin is a Proof of World system. The World is a fundamentally neutral place, as it is just a mirror. If you don't like a reflection, you don't go and change the mirror, you change yourself.

The point is, moving this highly relevant discussion away is incompetent censorship. It's worse than if the moderater just said, "All who read this in the future get this: POW is not to be changed for bitcoin. This thread is locked." so people will think twice before restarting the same argument again.

[raskul]

for the same reason there is still a 'simple machines forum' logo at the top right of the forum pages...

I can't believe this thread was moved to the alt section. This forum is unbelieveable.

yep. sign of bitcoin going stagnant.

If you look at the forum logo, you will see that Bitcoin provides a balance point between money and control, as it allows competition for both to continue indefinitely. Rules of the game need to be stable and not change at a whim of those who don't feel competitive. You are free to create other rules and play other games though.

Bitcoin is a Proof of World system. The World is a fundamentally neutral place, as it is just a mirror. If you don't like a reflection, you don't go and change the mirror, you change yourself.

The point is, moving this highly relevant discussion away is incompetent censorship. It's worse than if the moderater just said, "All who read this in the future get this: POW is not to be changed for bitcoin. This thread is locked." so people will think twice before restarting the same argument again.

i agree. is it so dangerous to have a conversation on the matter? what are they frightened we will do with this discussion?
I recall there was a very in-depth thread on this matter previously, started, and contributed to by some very long standing members, and some core developers also. That thread was not moved to the basement. it's one thing for core developers and another for the insignificant of us.

and don't get me started on the farce that is the 'bitcoin foundation'.

[cryptogeeknext]

As the recent PoW vs PoS discussion revealed, there are certain hidden aspects of consensus algorithms that might not be obvious to everyone, but have paramount importance in long-term survivability of the system in case where it becomes dominant on the planet and there is nowhere to run.

This is why it's important to keep competition between the systems ongoing instead of changing one system into another. This way all systems will behave and compete for participants.

I believe that moving this thread wasn't an act of censorship, but rather an invitation to experiment with various improvements and let them mature in the alt space.

[inBitweTrust]

I believe that moving this thread wasn't an act of censorship, but rather an invitation to experiment with various improvements and let them mature in the alt space.

The experiments have been ongoing and don't need any invitations from the bitcoin community. This thread has nothing to do with PoS explicitly and wasn't even advocating moving away from 100% PoW and I have already stated that it is possible the 100% PoW is the best option forever and Satoshi got it perfect the first time around. The details of experimenting with different algos has absolutely nothing to do with this topic.

This thread had 3 central purposes:

1) Discuss the Prohibited or disputed aspects which define Bitcoin
2) Take a poll on one of the disputed aspects of Bitcoin and see how many people would be open to the idea of a possible future hardfork within Bitcoin.
3) Collect a sampling of data to see how flexible Bitcoin may be in evolving in the future.

I understand some people don't agree with https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Prohibited_changes and believe that moving away from 100% PoW should be in the category of Prohibited changes and that is fine because this thread was intended to make their voice heard as well.

The fact that this thread is now in the alt section I can see the stats on the poll are already starting to become an inaccurate representation of the bitcoin community because we have gone from 62% to 65.2% open to the idea of changing bitcoin since this thread was moved. I wanted to take a sampling of data which was more likely to represent a Bitcoin users thoughts and not an altcoin users thoughts.

So instead of a moderator simply expressing his opinion and voting as you have done, he hides this thread in the alt section and thus skews the data from the poll.

[raskul]

I believe that moving this thread wasn't an act of censorship, but rather an invitation to experiment with various improvements and let them mature in the alt space.

The experiments have been ongoing and don't need any invitations from the bitcoin community. This thread has nothing to do with PoS explicitly and wasn't even advocating moving away from 100% PoW.

This thread had 2 central purposes:

1) Discuss the Prohibited or disputed aspects which define Bitcoin
2) Take a poll on one of the disputed aspects of Bitcoin and see how many people would be open to the idea of a possible future hardfork within Bitcoin.

I understand some people don't agree with https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Prohibited_changes and believe that moving away from 100% PoW should be in the category of Prohibited changes and that is fine because this thread was intended to make their voice heard as well.

The fact that this thread is now in the alt section I can see the stats on the poll are already starting to become an inaccurate representation of the bitcoin community because we have gone from 62% to 65.2% open to the idea of changing bitcoin since this thread was moved. I wanted to take a sampling of data which was more likely to represent a Bitcoin users thoughts and not an altcoin users thoughts.

i agree that the figures can no longer be representative of those with their main interest in bitcoin.
perhaps just lock the thread?

[inBitweTrust]

i agree that the figures can no longer be representative of those with their main interest in bitcoin.
perhaps just lock the thread?

Good idea, I locked the poll above.
The last accurate representation was 62% of the general Bitcoin community is open to the consensus algo being changed and not the 65% now shown. It is unfortunate that the moderator who moved this thread didn't allow us to get a larger sampling of valuable data before skewing the results.

I would like to hear from the moderator as to why a topic specifically about bitcoin needs to be in the altcoin section.

[djm34]

forking into a new algo is more an altcoin thing (also after 5 years and considering the millions invested in hardware to support the bitcoin network... it would be totally stupid...)
 
not that changing an algo is a bad thing in itself, but for an old coin, this is just plain stupid... (plain stupid ? hmm... that's altcoin vocabulary... this thread belongs to altcoin forum...  )

[mhps]

forking into a new algo is more an altcoin thing (also after 5 years and considering the millions invested in hardware to support the bitcoin network... it would be totally stupid...)
 
not that changing an algo is a bad thing in itself, but for an old coin, this is just plain stupid... (plain stupid ? hmm... that's altcoin vocabulary... this thread belongs to altcoin forum...  )

... depending whether you see bitcoin an interesting hobby project or a collector's item, the older the better, or a living utility that has a mission in the real world.

[Este Nuno]

forking into a new algo is more an altcoin thing (also after 5 years and considering the millions invested in hardware to support the bitcoin network... it would be totally stupid...)
 
not that changing an algo is a bad thing in itself, but for an old coin, this is just plain stupid... (plain stupid ? hmm... that's altcoin vocabulary... this thread belongs to altcoin forum...  )

... depending whether you see bitcoin an interesting hobby project or a collector's item, the older the better, or a living utility that has a mission in the real world.

Interesting way to put it. And I see Bitcoin becoming more of a collector's item as you say as time goes on and cryptocurrency technology advances while Bitcoin stagnates for the most part. I'm sure it will have a solid place for a long time and always have it's name to back it up.