How do ASICS protect the network again?

[cablepair]

cablepair, it shouldn't matter to you who gets ripped off because they bought an ASIC and who doesn't.  If you don't like ASICs, then don't buy them.  But don't complain because other people who might buy them might get ripped off.  It is certainly up to each individual as to whether they want to take the risk and buy it or not.

FWIW, my BFL FPGA's have already paid themselves off, so I won't have to worry about any ASIC payback period whatsoever - no matter how much or how little the payback is, it's still free money.

SgtSpike, I have always respected you but you have totally and completely missed my point here.

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[BCMan]

FWIW, my BFL FPGA's have already paid themselves off, so I won't have to worry about any ASIC payback period whatsoever - no matter how much or how little the payback is, it's still free money.

Lolwhat?

Actually, I take that back.  They've ALMOST paid themselves off.  They will be paid off within a month.

Bought 10, sold 6 to pay for 9, and the 10th is still being paid off through mining.

So you sold 6 for 50% more price, than new ones?

[rjk]

FWIW, my BFL FPGA's have already paid themselves off, so I won't have to worry about any ASIC payback period whatsoever - no matter how much or how little the payback is, it's still free money.

Lolwhat?

Actually, I take that back.  They've ALMOST paid themselves off.  They will be paid off within a month.

Bought 10, sold 6 to pay for 9, and the 10th is still being paid off through mining.

So you sold 6 for 50% more price, than new ones?

Yeah, apparently people pay that much for them, when they don't have to wait for shipping delays.

[SgtSpike]

cablepair, it shouldn't matter to you who gets ripped off because they bought an ASIC and who doesn't.  If you don't like ASICs, then don't buy them.  But don't complain because other people who might buy them might get ripped off.  It is certainly up to each individual as to whether they want to take the risk and buy it or not.

FWIW, my BFL FPGA's have already paid themselves off, so I won't have to worry about any ASIC payback period whatsoever - no matter how much or how little the payback is, it's still free money.

SgtSpike, I have always respected you but you have totally and completely missed my point here.

Well, I appreciate that, and I will agree that I have missed your point if what I said didn't relate.

All I have heard from you is that ASIC miners have the potential to not pay themselves back within a reasonable time period.  Ok, I will agree that there is a risk of that happening.  But I still say, so what?  Let each person make his own decision as to whether he wants to risk being an early adopter of ASIC technology or a later adopter.

FWIW, my BFL FPGA's have already paid themselves off, so I won't have to worry about any ASIC payback period whatsoever - no matter how much or how little the payback is, it's still free money.

Lolwhat?

Actually, I take that back.  They've ALMOST paid themselves off.  They will be paid off within a month.

Bought 10, sold 6 to pay for 9, and the 10th is still being paid off through mining.

So you sold 6 for 50% more price, than new ones?

Pretty close, yeah.

[cablepair]

cablepair, it shouldn't matter to you who gets ripped off because they bought an ASIC and who doesn't.  If you don't like ASICs, then don't buy them.  But don't complain because other people who might buy them might get ripped off.  It is certainly up to each individual as to whether they want to take the risk and buy it or not.

FWIW, my BFL FPGA's have already paid themselves off, so I won't have to worry about any ASIC payback period whatsoever - no matter how much or how little the payback is, it's still free money.

SgtSpike, I have always respected you but you have totally and completely missed my point here.

Well, I appreciate that, and I will agree that I have missed your point if what I said didn't relate.

All I have heard from you is that ASIC miners have the potential to not pay themselves back within a reasonable time period.  Ok, I will agree that there is a risk of that happening.  But I still say, so what?  Let each person make his own decision as to whether he wants to risk being an early adopter of ASIC technology or a later adopter.

FWIW, my BFL FPGA's have already paid themselves off, so I won't have to worry about any ASIC payback period whatsoever - no matter how much or how little the payback is, it's still free money.

Lolwhat?

Actually, I take that back.  They've ALMOST paid themselves off.  They will be paid off within a month.

Bought 10, sold 6 to pay for 9, and the 10th is still being paid off through mining.

So you sold 6 for 50% more price, than new ones?

Pretty close, yeah.

it really has nothing to do at all with payback period etc I dont give a rats ass about any of that

my reference to price has to do with the security of the Bitcoin network and the potentials for abuse of the Bitcoin network based on the price comparison to build an asic and the prices that they will be sold at

I was also just correcting certain people who actually think asic mining manufacturers are going to be good guys and sell us these devices dirt cheap so everyone can have them and we can have a happy safe secure and distributed network


that in a nutshell was the motivation behind why I was talking about price

I thank you for your conversation Mr. Spike, your level of maturity here was well received and appreciated in comparison to some individuals who I will not mention, and with that I bid you a good day as I have a busy evening ahead of me processing fpga orders and fielding emails.
take care!

[jjshabadoo]

You're still being deceitful in saying they are almost paid off.

You bought them and took a risk and then sold them at a mark up. This profit lowered your cost on the ones you kept. Good for you.

If you think that type of free market will help bitcoin flourish, well then we just disagree.

That is a market driven by speculation and greed - tends to have too many losers to last.

[SgtSpike]

@ Cablepair - That's why I prefaced my particular payback period with "FWIW".  Might be worth something to someone, obviously not worth anything to you, which is fine.  It is largely irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

I still argue that ASIC manufacturers will at least TRY to be the good guys.  If they do anything to damage the reputation of Bitcoins, thus reducing their value, it will DIRECTLY impact their bottom line.  I don't think they will be dirt cheap, but I don't think they will be priced sky-high to start with either.  Certainly, the manufacturers are looking to maximize their profits, but part of that calculation involves keeping the price of BTC up high, which means they need to treat their miners right, treat Bitcoin users right, and not do anything that would compromise Bitcoin or even give the illusion of compromise.

@jj - I don't see how it is deceitful at all.  I took a risk, and it paid off.  About a month from now is, literally, when they will have paid for themselves.  I wasn't trying to imply that other people would be able to pay for their own FPGA miners in such a short period of time.

[jjshabadoo]

It seemed to me you were making the argument that singles have already paid themselves off, so why not ASIC type of thing.

Anyway, it really doesn't matter as most have suggested, the market will call the shots.

I just thought a major aspect of Bitcoin was the open source/community aspect, but I guess it is yielding to the market and maybe it always has.

I was drawn to bitcoin for the concept and possible role in improving personal freedom.

I think the free market is the most over-rated concept in economics. It only works if it has 100% rational players. It doesn't take into account Behavioral Economic Principles.

[rjk]

I think the free market is the most over-rated concept in economics. It only works if it has 100% rational players. It doesn't take into account Behavioral Economic Principles.

A glimmer of light!

[SgtSpike]

It seemed to me you were making the argument that singles have already paid themselves off, so why not ASIC type of thing.

Anyway, it really doesn't matter as most have suggested, the market will call the shots.

I just thought a major aspect of Bitcoin was the open source/community aspect, but I guess it is yielding to the market and maybe it always has.

I was drawn to bitcoin for the concept and possible role in improving personal freedom.

I think the free market is the most over-rated concept in economics. It only works if it has 100% rational players. It doesn't take into account Behavioral Economic Principles.

For me personally, yes.  And I might even risk more money on buying more ASICs on top of that, we'll see.  Again, each person has to make their own decision on whether or not they should buy ASICs.

Any market/community/etc will always boil down to money and "greed" if money is involved.  To expect otherwise is to expect people to act unnaturally.  The best that can be done is to expect the greed, and act upon it in such a way as to use the greed to the greatest benefit of everyone.  In capitalism, that's the free market, as greed is captured as the inspiration for innovation and investment.

So, what is your proposed replacement for free market?  A regulated market that tries to take behavioral economics into account?

[HorseRider]

We can just upgrade the protocol slightly which only make the existing ASIC cannot work anymore if we find something bad is being done by the ASIC minners

[rjk]

We can just upgrade the protocol slightly which only make the existing ASIC cannot work anymore if we find something bad is being done by the ASIC minners

You guys discuss this as if it were trivial. It isn't. Do some research or something.

[HorseRider]

We can just upgrade the protocol slightly which only make the existing ASIC cannot work anymore if we find something bad is being done by the ASIC minners

You guys discuss this as if it were trivial. It isn't. Do some research or something.

We already did it once at least twice. If the change itself is trivial but only stop the exiting ASIC with an ergent need to save the Bitcoin network then it should be able to implement fast.

[rjk]

We can just upgrade the protocol slightly which only make the existing ASIC cannot work anymore if we find something bad is being done by the ASIC minners

You guys discuss this as if it were trivial. It isn't. Do some research or something.

We already did it once at least twice. If the change itself is trivial but only stop the exiting ASIC with an ergent need to save the Bitcoin network then it should be able to implement fast.

Nnnnoooo... the hashing algorithm (SHA256) has never been changed since the inception of Bitcoin. Not once.
What has changed are some protocol updates such as P2SH, but those have nothing to do with the core functionality of mining, which is SHA256 hashing. And such changes in the future would not render ASICs useless, since the bits that change are all related to the control software, not the hardware.

[SgtSpike]

We can just upgrade the protocol slightly which only make the existing ASIC cannot work anymore if we find something bad is being done by the ASIC minners

Again, there are plenty of reasons why this will never happen unless there is a true threat that the current algorithm is in danger of being bruteforced or otherwise compromised.

[Transisto]

They simply DO NOT, because mining then becomes about capital ONLY, not man power or technical knowledge.
...................................................

History shows, capital can purchase man power and technical expertise.

OP FAIL !

Good lord,, stop crafting comments to OP that fail at line one.

[memvola]

I was also just correcting certain people who actually think asic mining manufacturers are going to be good guys and sell us these devices dirt cheap so everyone can have them and we can have a happy safe secure and distributed network

Competition will drive the prices down. First buyers will take the risk. Hell, they won't even be taking risk, they will be knowingly paying much more than they'd have to if they bought on the way down. Exactly like every other bit of electronics.

[HorseRider]

We can just upgrade the protocol slightly which only make the existing ASIC cannot work anymore if we find something bad is being done by the ASIC minners

You guys discuss this as if it were trivial. It isn't. Do some research or something.

We already did it once at least twice. If the change itself is trivial but only stop the exiting ASIC with an ergent need to save the Bitcoin network then it should be able to implement fast.

Nnnnoooo... the hashing algorithm (SHA256) has never been changed since the inception of Bitcoin. Not once.
What has changed are some protocol updates such as P2SH, but those have nothing to do with the core functionality of mining, which is SHA256 hashing. And such changes in the future would not render ASICs useless, since the bits that change are all related to the control software, not the hardware.

Thanks for your informative reply.