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dogie
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December 04, 2014, 12:23:33 AM
 #21

https://bitcointalk.org/docs/ulbricht.pdf

I won't post my response because it contains deleted posts which should remain private if at all possible. Probably my response will end up as part of public record, but I'm not going to speed up the process or make it easier for people to find. I already PMed the users affected by this.

Maybe this is the first time Theymos experienced a formal subpoena, but I have trouble believing that this is the first time he experienced a law enforcement inquiry.

This is the first government request/inquiry I've received related to Ulbricht's case. I have received a few other inquiries for other cases.

Does this mean that you'll need to be present (or at least, a representative) at NYC that time?
AFAIK only if the plaintiffs want to use his testimony and so has to be available for questions. Alternatively can do it pre-trial and prerecorded.

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December 04, 2014, 12:27:55 AM
 #22

What was the method of receiving the subpoena btw?

Email. I suppose I could have demanded a hardcopy, fought about the jurisdiction, etc., but this wouldn't have done anyone any good.

You should have at least called in to the DA's office to check it was a valid subpoena, there could be liability if you release information to a spoofed subpoena. Someone (with motive/connection or not) could have sent you that email spoofed to the DA's office about the credible case, without it being from the DA.

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December 04, 2014, 12:40:17 AM
 #23

https://bitcointalk.org/docs/ulbricht.pdf

I won't post my response because it contains deleted posts which should remain private if at all possible. Probably my response will end up as part of public record, but I'm not going to speed up the process or make it easier for people to find. I already PMed the users affected by this.

Maybe this is the first time Theymos experienced a formal subpoena, but I have trouble believing that this is the first time he experienced a law enforcement inquiry.

This is the first government request/inquiry I've received related to Ulbricht's case. I have received a few other inquiries for other cases.

Does this mean that you'll need to be present (or at least, a representative) at NYC that time?
AFAIK only if the plaintiffs want to use his testimony and so has to be available for questions. Alternatively can do it pre-trial and prerecorded.
The subpoena says that a personal appearance is necessary.

I am certain that he would not be able to per-record his testimony as this would deprive Ross his right to face his accusers and to question theymos if he wanted to do so. In theory it could be done via skype or via some other video conferencing software, however this is generally rare.     

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December 04, 2014, 12:55:25 AM
 #24

The subpoena says that a personal appearance is necessary.

Quote
In lieu of an appearance, the custodian may fill out and return the declaration enclosed herewith along with the requested
records.

He is not being asked to testify regarding evidence, all he has to do is certify (at the penalty of contempt or worse) that what he has submitted is true and proper.

I am certain that he would not be able to per-record his testimony as this would deprive Ross his right to face his accusers and to question theymos if he wanted to do so. In theory it could be done via skype or via some other video conferencing software, however this is generally rare.      

If he was being asked to testify, of course they can do it before hand. The plaintiffs do one deposition and submit the logs to the court and defendants, and then the defendants get to do a similar process and are free to cross examine anything that is said. I think you might have been watching too many films, but a lot of what happens in the court room is processing and reviewing evidence that has already been submitted in documents. It would be rarer that new evidence is freshly submitted in a court room as no one can do anything until both parties have had time to review the evidence and prepare a response.

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December 04, 2014, 01:24:41 AM
 #25

The subpoena says that a personal appearance is necessary.

Quote
In lieu of an appearance, the custodian may fill out and return the declaration enclosed herewith along with the requested
records.

He is not being asked to testify regarding evidence, all he has to do is certify (at the penalty of contempt or worse) that what he has submitted is true and proper.
Yea, I see that now. That was my mistake. I would say it could be possible that Ross could dispute the validity of what was submitted and ask him to testify, but I would find this somewhat unlikely (if theymos did have to testify, it might be about the integrity of the DB after various hacks/hack attempts of the forum).   
I am certain that he would not be able to per-record his testimony as this would deprive Ross his right to face his accusers and to question theymos if he wanted to do so. In theory it could be done via skype or via some other video conferencing software, however this is generally rare.      

If he was being asked to testify, of course they can do it before hand. The plaintiffs do one deposition and submit the logs to the court and defendants, and then the defendants get to do a similar process and are free to cross examine anything that is said. I think you might have been watching too many films, but a lot of what happens in the court room is processing and reviewing evidence that has already been submitted in documents. It would be rarer that new evidence is freshly submitted in a court room as no one can do anything until both parties have had time to review the evidence and prepare a response.
I am not entirely sure about this. My understanding of testimony is that it must be done in front of a Jury and that the defendant has the right to cross examine any testimony that a witness presents. Although I do not have a law degree and have very little experience in a courtroom so I may be wrong on this.   

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December 04, 2014, 08:23:13 AM
 #26

https://bitcointalk.org/docs/ulbricht.pdf

I won't post my response because it contains deleted posts which should remain private if at all possible. Probably my response will end up as part of public record, but I'm not going to speed up the process or make it easier for people to find. I already PMed the users affected by this.

Maybe this is the first time Theymos experienced a formal subpoena, but I have trouble believing that this is the first time he experienced a law enforcement inquiry.

This is the first government request/inquiry I've received related to Ulbricht's case. I have received a few other inquiries for other cases.

Thanks for this post , any news about this case ?
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December 04, 2014, 08:12:05 PM
 #27

You might be surprised to learn that this is the first subpoena I've received for the forum.
But I assume you have been arrested dozens of times?

J/K, thanks for sharing this info.


What do u mean ?
Oh, I'm totally kidding. "j/k" was supposed to mean "just kidding".

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December 05, 2014, 12:53:17 AM
 #28

I got this PM, I forget what I posted Cheesy Interesting nevertheless.

Hello. At some point or another you posted something to the topic A Heroin Store and then your post was deleted, maybe by you or maybe by a moderator. I'm writing just to let you know that I was forced to release your deleted post(s) due to a subpoena by the United States Attorney’s Office for the Southern District of New York related to a case against Ross Ulbricht (the alleged operator of the first Silk Road). Unless you have some connection to Ross Ulbricht, I do not believe that you are under investigation at this time. However, I believe that your post will become part of public record, so you may be at risk if your post contained anything illegal or suspicious. If you don't remember what your post contained, I can provide you with a copy.

I regret that this was necessary. Hopefully it doesn't cause you any trouble.

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December 05, 2014, 12:59:25 AM
 #29

I got this PM, I forget what I posted Cheesy Interesting nevertheless.

Hello. At some point or another you posted something to the topic A Heroin Store and then your post was deleted, maybe by you or maybe by a moderator. I'm writing just to let you know that I was forced to release your deleted post(s) due to a subpoena by the United States Attorney’s Office for the Southern District of New York related to a case against Ross Ulbricht (the alleged operator of the first Silk Road). Unless you have some connection to Ross Ulbricht, I do not believe that you are under investigation at this time. However, I believe that your post will become part of public record, so you may be at risk if your post contained anything illegal or suspicious. If you don't remember what your post contained, I can provide you with a copy.

I regret that this was necessary. Hopefully it doesn't cause you any trouble.


Why don't you ask theymos for a copy of the post and then post it here (if it isn't too incriminating).

I think the Ross Ulbright case will certainly be the court case to watch it 2015, and will almost certainly be appealed to the supreme court (assuming he is found guilty, which I think he will be initially) 

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December 05, 2014, 09:16:15 AM
Last edit: December 05, 2014, 01:00:17 PM by bitkilo
 #30

I got this PM, I forget what I posted Cheesy Interesting nevertheless.

Hello. At some point or another you posted something to the topic A Heroin Store and then your post was deleted, maybe by you or maybe by a moderator. I'm writing just to let you know that I was forced to release your deleted post(s) due to a subpoena by the United States Attorney’s Office for the Southern District of New York related to a case against Ross Ulbricht (the alleged operator of the first Silk Road). Unless you have some connection to Ross Ulbricht, I do not believe that you are under investigation at this time. However, I believe that your post will become part of public record, so you may be at risk if your post contained anything illegal or suspicious. If you don't remember what your post contained, I can provide you with a copy.

I regret that this was necessary. Hopefully it doesn't cause you any trouble.


My guess is this is what you posted:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=175.msg57305#msg57305
Looks like it was your first ever post, great start!

I would be interested to know if everyone who posted in that thread got this PM, if so then many are getting them including Gavin Andresen and even the famous laszlo.

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December 06, 2014, 01:44:24 AM
 #31

If you get a subpoena by email, that is borderline official, and it means nothing you have is secret and needs to be hidden from public. Please please please tell me you replied to it with a string of foul language. They are casting a gigantic net to see who falls for it. In fact are you sure it isn't simply a 'summons' you can ignore just as easily?
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December 06, 2014, 09:37:03 AM
 #32

Why are you archiving posts for? Are you keeping ip logs too? This is the concerning part.

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December 06, 2014, 09:45:11 AM
 #33

Why are you archiving posts for? Are you keeping ip logs too? This is the concerning part.


I'm guessing he archives deleted posts for things like scam accusations. Most server admins live by the motto of always have 1 copy of a file more than you think you need, so if you think you need 1 copy of something you really need 2, if you think you need 2 copies of something you need 3, and if you think you need 0 copies you need 1. Never delete anything.

And yes he keeps IP logs. Why wouldn't he?

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December 06, 2014, 09:48:55 AM
 #34

Why are you archiving posts for? Are you keeping ip logs too? This is the concerning part.


I'm guessing he archives deleted posts for things like scam accusations. Most server admins live by the motto of always have 1 copy of a file more than you think you need, so if you think you need 1 copy of something you really need 2, if you think you need 2 copies of something you need 3, and if you think you need 0 copies you need 1. Never delete anything.

And yes he keeps IP logs. Why wouldn't he?

I guess. I'm going to have to think about abandoning my account and going dark.

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December 06, 2014, 09:54:27 AM
 #35

This is not very surprising/interesting, but I thought I'd mention that I received a subpoena for information related to Ross Ulbricht's alleged forum account altoid. I mostly just compiled some publicly-available information. The only non-public data I had to include were some deleted posts in the heroin store topic that were not written by DPR and probably won't be useful in the case.

You might be surprised to learn that this is the first subpoena I've received for the forum.

This is amazing hypocrisy. While investors were scammed all year long with scam after scam (Altcoins were turning scam >2 weekly in August, eg USBCoin) there was not a single fucking peep from anyone in the manner where it would be proactive in stopping that plague. The Altcoin scams were self-moderated and the only change was mining pool advertising. This is the same forum where a thread saying "I'm starting a Ponzi scheme, who's interested in getting on board?" doesn't cause anyone to bat an eyelid (let alone raise a mouse finger to lock/hide/delete the post).

But now the FBI sends you a letter, and you're suddenly able to be the good guy being proactive? If not before why now? Antruk will answer that...
Quote from: Antruk
I'd say it sets a good precedent.  It's nice to know when justice is happening, even if we don't know why in this case.
Even though this is a private forum, it still has to obey laws.  I find that comforting.

Yep, hit the nail on the head. It does set a good precedent. A precedent where the admin and mods have clearly got the ability to stem the flow of bad actors but choose not to. Unless of course it plays into their favor; if the price of Bitcoin is affected or there's brownie points that need winning, well, that libertarian "right to free speech, privacy (and, oh, freedom) can be put aside to set good precedent. It makes my fucking skin crawl.

Why am I defending this scum, this drug kingpin? Because he's neither. Yet. (And no, I don't even drink or do weed)
DPR has not been proven to be Ross Ulbricht. He is innocent until proven guilty.\
The defence team has no chance; the FBI will do all it takes to convict Ross and do so with extreme prejudice. You're helping the FBI on what (in their words) "an open and shut case".

Do the right thing and offer every and any assistance to Ross' legal team.
Perhaps the good precedent to set can be that there's some type of selflessness at some stage.

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December 06, 2014, 10:00:48 AM
 #36

This is very shady theymos, I was under the assumption there's no logs. Not Google type monitoring. This isn't Facebook. Do you store our PMs too?

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December 06, 2014, 10:04:14 AM
 #37

This is very shady theymos, I was under the assumption there's no logs. Not Google type monitoring. This isn't Facebook. Do you store our PMs too?

I hope he stores everything.

A lot of commerce is done through this forum.  A lot of scams too.   Undecided

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December 06, 2014, 10:05:58 AM
 #38

This is very shady theymos, I was under the assumption there's no logs. Not Google type monitoring. This isn't Facebook. Do you store our PMs too?

I hope he stores everything.

A lot of commerce is done through this forum.  A lot of scams too.   Undecided

Yah but that's never been used. We've gone along without it unless theymos has released data before on scams? Where's the neobee logs? Only theymos and now the fbi ever saw anything.

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December 06, 2014, 10:15:06 AM
 #39

This is very shady theymos, I was under the assumption there's no logs. Not Google type monitoring. This isn't Facebook. Do you store our PMs too?

I hope he stores everything.

A lot of commerce is done through this forum.  A lot of scams too.   Undecided

Yah but that's never been used. We've gone along without it unless theymos has released data before on scams? Where's the neobee logs? Only theymos and now the fbi ever saw anything.

He keeps PM's too of course. Theymos used to release data public, but now he only releases it to law enforcement agencies who make reasonable requests and that it is obvious to him the person is doing something illegal and immoral.

This is just the first subpoena hes received, which means he is required by law to provide the requested data should he possess it or he could risk prosecution. Any other time he has helped LE it has been a friendly request from them that he agreed with.

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December 06, 2014, 10:20:19 AM
 #40

This is not very surprising/interesting, but I thought I'd mention that I received a subpoena for information related to Ross Ulbricht's alleged forum account altoid. I mostly just compiled some publicly-available information. The only non-public data I had to include were some deleted posts in the heroin store topic that were not written by DPR and probably won't be useful in the case.

You might be surprised to learn that this is the first subpoena I've received for the forum.

This is amazing hypocrisy. While investors were scammed all year long with scam after scam (Altcoins were turning scam >2 weekly in August, eg USBCoin) there was not a single fucking peep from anyone in the manner where it would be proactive in stopping that plague. The Altcoin scams were self-moderated and the only change was mining pool advertising. This is the same forum where a thread saying "I'm starting a Ponzi scheme, who's interested in getting on board?" doesn't cause anyone to bat an eyelid (let alone raise a mouse finger to lock/hide/delete the post).

But now the FBI sends you a letter, and you're suddenly able to be the good guy being proactive? If not before why now? Antruk will answer that...
Quote from: Antruk
I'd say it sets a good precedent.  It's nice to know when justice is happening, even if we don't know why in this case.
Even though this is a private forum, it still has to obey laws.  I find that comforting.

Yep, hit the nail on the head. It does set a good precedent. A precedent where the admin and mods have clearly got the ability to stem the flow of bad actors but choose not to. Unless of course it plays into their favor; if the price of Bitcoin is affected or there's brownie points that need winning, well, that libertarian "right to free speech, privacy (and, oh, freedom) can be put aside to set good precedent. It makes my fucking skin crawl.

Why am I defending this scum, this drug kingpin? Because he's neither. Yet. (And no, I don't even drink or do weed)
DPR has not been proven to be Ross Ulbricht. He is innocent until proven guilty.\
The defence team has no chance; the FBI will do all it takes to convict Ross and do so with extreme prejudice. You're helping the FBI on what (in their words) "an open and shut case".

Do the right thing and offer every and any assistance to Ross' legal team.
Perhaps the good precedent to set can be that there's some type of selflessness at some stage.



Well said.
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