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Author Topic: A Public Plea to Bitcoin Developers and Supporters alike  (Read 9850 times)
hazek
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June 18, 2012, 09:41:30 PM
 #41


In essence the ONLY reason to change the algorithm is if there is a security problem with it, which at the moment there is not.

The only problem with this line of thinking is that when you do have a problem, it will be too late.    I am looking for more formal guidance from BFL and maybe some added information on what there intentions are long-term.  They have to understand politics do play apart in this because so many peoples hard work and investment is tied to Bitcoin so they have a RESPONSIBILITY to understand the fortunate position and power they weld.   

If they disagree or anyone on here responds with, "they can do whatever they want", in my opinion, don't really believe in Bitcoin for its important place in history and are really just in it to profiteer.   In any case, thats what we already have in the world around us, but here we "could" actually try and work together to change things so we help not only the big players grow, but the small one too so we have a robust network and people we have a pleasure to work with.   Maybe it is idealistic, but I don't think this bar is set too high.

I want to build something that will be here after I am not and is in a better shape than I left it

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Dalkore

I find your presumptive tone deploring. As if it weren't for BFL somehow Bitcoin or any businesses related to it are guaranteed to succeed. Well guess what, they're not. There are no guarantees, not in life and not in Bitcoin.

They have 0, YES ZERO, responsibility with their fortunate position. They can do what ever the hell they want, that's real freedom, anything else is you trying to impose your arbitrarily presumed authority upon them and you should be ashamed for even suggesting something with even a hint of that. And yeah, freedom is scary, you must rely on other people without the option to force them to do as you'd wish in order to experience a preferred outcome, that's what real freedom is. Or are you in favor of masters and slaves where you'd like to be a master and just tell everyone how things are going to work? Is that it?


They can well damn do what ever the hell they like. But if they are smart, they'll sell their product and offer it to the market and not acquire more than ~40% of hashing power to maximize the profits of the situation they themselves have put themselves in (that's right, you're also wrong saying they somehow magically found themselves in that position).

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June 18, 2012, 10:16:19 PM
 #42

^^^^

Then it is true that "true freedom" is based on direct violence or assumed violence.    In a world of freedom with the above world, only the strong and powerful prosper.  Now you may cut too, "this is reality, get over it"  Yes, and I will but denigrating me for saying what I said, it a pretty weak argument.  FYI:  Violence can be done in business as well.


Bitcoin is a decentralized p2p cryptographic currency.   What we are dealing with is a centralization issue.    In our system, this becomes a problem.  What I care about is keeping the network robust, if our networks end up in a few hands, those make easy points of attack.   I just want more communication and guidance from BFL for the networks sake.   I am a customer and will be purchasing ASIC as well as we upgrade.   


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hazek
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June 18, 2012, 10:27:36 PM
 #43

No one is preventing you to defend yourself against their "violence" and fork the chain. No one. And that's freedom.

And if they are stupid enough to destroy the trust in Bitcoin through keeping their technology to themselves and acquiring more than 51%, they'll not only destroy the value of their investment but they'll also trigger a response by everyone else changing the protocol and forking the chain as self defense.

And again, that's freedom, the best possible social and economic foundational principle for maximum peace and prosperity known to man.

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June 19, 2012, 02:40:08 AM
 #44

First, I see a threat in monopoly. Imagine a 20x more effective hardware coming out reaching all the miners in storm pushing the difficulty to 200TH only to turn out to have a kill switch. Right after reaching block #XYZ they all fail. That would be fun Smiley The next retarget would take a year and endless discussions. Poppcorn Smiley

Second, I like proof of stake. We need it and we will see it at some point. The earlier we start the transition the better.

muyuu
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June 19, 2012, 06:24:07 AM
 #45

And these Jalapeno thingies, do they ship and perform as advertised? because I'd be interested. Grin

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Raoul Duke
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June 19, 2012, 06:29:17 AM
 #46

Reading this thread just reminded me of something...

Those dudes who invested on CoinLab must be pulling their hair right now lol
Half a million down the drain ehehehehe

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June 19, 2012, 08:47:47 AM
 #47

In the aftermath of the recent Butterfly Labs announcement in regards to their 'Endgame' performing ASICs, I humbly ask all Bitcoin Developers and Supporters to take a step back and think about the future of Bitcoin.

In the first day, the Butterfly Labs ASIC announcement has literally KILLED the marketplace and future development of mining devices that have brought us to where we are today.

There has been a large enough shadow of uncertainty cast upon this community to cause more than a few SOLID and well known Securities on the GLBSE to literally CRASH in terms of price, leaving even those proponents of BFL in trouble, caused by none other than BFL.

Let me put this into terms that many of you can easily relate to...
Butterfly Labs wants to be Microsoft. By PREMATURELY releasing nothing more than FUD, they have taken away all incentive for anyone else to compete in the hardware market and would essentially be taking mining out of reach for every-day miners, using nothing more than their GPUs part time.

I think this KILLS THE TRUE SPIRIT OF BITCOIN and everything that it was intended to stand for.
I have a hard time believing that this is the type of growth (on any scale, or in any corner of the Bitcoin ecosystem) that Satoshi had in mind.

My PLEA is as follows...

Developers, please consider periodic DRAMATIC algorithm changes that would keep a single entity from being able to control any portion of the Bitcoin Ecosystem, whether it be hardware, software or anything that might force users out, while only allowing a chosen few to participate in mining.

If the above is not considered, then Bitcoin might as well be renamed Butterfly Labs Coin in the near future, if their ASICs truly do come to life.

I am a small time miner. I only maintain approx 11 GH/s.
I am NOT a hardware or software developer. I have NO 'iron in the fire' (so to speak) but I can clearly see a possible path that will surely be forced to travel for everyone, in time, if this is not addressed.

Windows and Linux..... Just remember that.

Quote
1)    BitForce SC Jalapeno: a USB powered coffee warmer providing 3.5 GH/s, priced at under $149
2)    BitForce SC Single: a standalone unit providing roughly 40 GH/s, priced at $1,299
3)    BitForce SC Mini Rig: a case & rack mount server providing 1 TH/s, priced at $29,899
$150 for 3.5 GH/s ? .......this will surely be the downfall of Bitcoin as we know it.


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bitlane.

Well, Ive been doing a lot of thinking. Too much really...I can't sleep and it is 1:22 in the morning. Your conclusion is absolutely right. This is quickly heading towards centralization with respect to mining: the most critical part of Bitcoin in my opinion. Unless someone can prove to me that this will not happen with the current conditions of Bitcoin and BFL's bold move then it's time for bitcoin to change. I could care less what happens to the remaining BFLcoin fork and its mindless followers.
The market depth and total market cap of bitcoin doesn't suggest that developing a full blown ASIC is good idea. The motivations of the "venture capitalist" is not only based on greed for money, but greed for power; that is, power over Bitcoin. Ever since their announcement, I've felt powerless. The decentralization of bitcoin had given me a since of power that motivated me to help out where I can, but that has diminished. I add my plea with yours and ask those that truly care about Bitcoin to sit back and really think this through.

BTW, I sold half of my BFLcoins today and I plan to sell the rest until we have a solution. This is the chance for the community to show where the true value of bitcoin really is - that is, it's in the community not just the technology. I have a lot of faith in you all.

I will be working on a BIP the next few days. Right now, it is clear to me that bitcoin mining protocol needs to be improved in a way that it always steers clear of dedicated hardware right now that would be ASICs.



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June 19, 2012, 09:48:13 AM
 #48

GPU and FPGA cockroaches are running for the cover and demanding a fork to protect their hides. How hilarious!

Here is a news for you. You can make that fork yourself right now, no need to beg any devs. Just pledge a 50 BTC bounty and someone will make that fork for ya. So stop whining and do the fork I dare you.

The rest of us will stay with Bitcoin that will enjoy Exahashes of hashing power securing it's transactions.

BTW. Consider applying for Whiner in Chief job at RIAA, they will surely understand your angst.

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June 19, 2012, 12:44:19 PM
 #49

Reading this thread just reminded me of something...

Those dudes who invested on CoinLab must be pulling their hair right now lol
Half a million down the drain ehehehehe
I had to lol a bit at this too; although thy might be able to sell upgrades in the form of jalapenos do you think? Most gamers will spend a bit to boost their stats. Hopefully openbitasic comes along with something competitive.

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allten
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June 19, 2012, 02:01:18 PM
 #50

GPU and FPGA cockroaches are running for the cover and demanding a fork to protect their hides. How hilarious!

Here is a news for you. You can make that fork yourself right now, no need to beg any devs. Just pledge a 50 BTC bounty and someone will make that fork for ya. So stop whining and do the fork I dare you.

The rest of us will stay with Bitcoin that will enjoy Exahashes of hashing power securing it's transactions.

BTW. Consider applying for Whiner in Chief job at RIAA, they will surely understand your angst.


I have 1 GPU running my display and two Bitforce singles from BFLcoin.
I like your optimism, but decentralization of bitcoin is getting a huge blow with this trend.
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June 19, 2012, 02:03:49 PM
 #51

I like your optimism, but decentralization of bitcoin is getting a huge blow with this trend.

Hmmm... perhaps I know something that you don't.

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June 19, 2012, 02:07:21 PM
 #52

Why centralization? They're selling to everyone. But I am done with mining, I never expanded my mining operation beyond a single PC with 1.2GH. Once they release ASIC, I'll sell GPUs to gamers.
Raoul Duke
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June 19, 2012, 02:07:37 PM
 #53

I like your optimism, but decentralization of bitcoin is getting a huge blow with this trend.

Hmmm... perhaps I know something that you don't.


Perhaps you know that people who aren't miners still want their coffee warm Wink

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June 19, 2012, 02:09:08 PM
 #54

I like your optimism, but decentralization of bitcoin is getting a huge blow with this trend.

Hmmm... perhaps I know something that you don't.


Perhaps you know that people who aren't miners still want their coffee warm Wink
Question of the day: Is 2 watts enough to keep a coffee piping hot?

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Raoul Duke
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June 19, 2012, 02:17:34 PM
 #55

I like your optimism, but decentralization of bitcoin is getting a huge blow with this trend.

Hmmm... perhaps I know something that you don't.


Perhaps you know that people who aren't miners still want their coffee warm Wink
Question of the day: Is 2 watts enough to keep a coffee piping hot?

It's to keep it warm, not to boil it. duh! Wink

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June 19, 2012, 02:18:36 PM
 #56

It's to keep it warm, not to boil it. duh! Wink
I can't stand lukewarm coffee.

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muyuu
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June 20, 2012, 05:52:28 PM
 #57

My coffee is annoyingly tepid. I hope they actually ship these products soon.

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June 20, 2012, 06:23:04 PM
 #58

GPU and FPGA cockroaches are running for the cover and demanding a fork to protect their hides. How hilarious!

Here is a news for you. You can make that fork yourself right now, no need to beg any devs. Just pledge a 50 BTC bounty and someone will make that fork for ya. So stop whining and do the fork I dare you.

The rest of us will stay with Bitcoin that will enjoy Exahashes of hashing power securing it's transactions.

BTW. Consider applying for Whiner in Chief job at RIAA, they will surely understand your angst.


+1.

ASIC is the only thing that can give the Bitcoin network enough security to save guard it from Governmental and Institutional attacks that would use CPU and GPU based Supercomputers.
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June 20, 2012, 06:28:25 PM
 #59

Don't think I agree with the op's approach to fix the issue, but interested to see what others say.

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June 20, 2012, 06:41:34 PM
 #60

The only danger is in the beginning and BFL can address that situation.  In the beginning, one entity could buy up 51% for about 600,000.  If BFL does not allow one person to buy that many at once... or even just staggers delivery to known different buyers there is really not a big problem.  

Don't worry if there is one thing BFL is good at it is not delivery enough product to make a difference.   I am still waiting on my single from over two months ago.

Did you get that bet with Inaba ?

I was 90% sure they delivered in the timeframe ...

I am confused now TBH.

I agree with OP. ASIC is bad !
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