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Author Topic: A Public Plea to Bitcoin Developers and Supporters alike  (Read 9859 times)
bitlane
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June 18, 2012, 02:20:03 PM
 #1

In the aftermath of the recent Butterfly Labs announcement in regards to their 'Endgame' performing ASICs, I humbly ask all Bitcoin Developers and Supporters to take a step back and think about the future of Bitcoin.

In the first day, the Butterfly Labs ASIC announcement has literally KILLED the marketplace and future development of mining devices that have brought us to where we are today.

There has been a large enough shadow of uncertainty cast upon this community to cause more than a few SOLID and well known Securities on the GLBSE to literally CRASH in terms of price, leaving even those proponents of BFL in trouble, caused by none other than BFL.

Let me put this into terms that many of you can easily relate to...
Butterfly Labs wants to be Microsoft. By PREMATURELY releasing nothing more than FUD, they have taken away all incentive for anyone else to compete in the hardware market and would essentially be taking mining out of reach for every-day miners, using nothing more than their GPUs part time.

I think this KILLS THE TRUE SPIRIT OF BITCOIN and everything that it was intended to stand for.
I have a hard time believing that this is the type of growth (on any scale, or in any corner of the Bitcoin ecosystem) that Satoshi had in mind.

My PLEA is as follows...

Developers, please consider periodic DRAMATIC algorithm changes that would keep a single entity from being able to control any portion of the Bitcoin Ecosystem, whether it be hardware, software or anything that might force users out, while only allowing a chosen few to participate in mining.

If the above is not considered, then Bitcoin might as well be renamed Butterfly Labs Coin in the near future, if their ASICs truly do come to life.

I am a small time miner. I only maintain approx 11 GH/s.
I am NOT a hardware or software developer. I have NO 'iron in the fire' (so to speak) but I can clearly see a possible path that will surely be forced to travel for everyone, in time, if this is not addressed.

Windows and Linux..... Just remember that.

Quote
1)    BitForce SC Jalapeno: a USB powered coffee warmer providing 3.5 GH/s, priced at under $149
2)    BitForce SC Single: a standalone unit providing roughly 40 GH/s, priced at $1,299
3)    BitForce SC Mini Rig: a case & rack mount server providing 1 TH/s, priced at $29,899
$150 for 3.5 GH/s ? .......this will surely be the downfall of Bitcoin as we know it.


Love me or hate me,
bitlane.

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June 18, 2012, 02:23:05 PM
 #2

Bitcoin =/= mining.  

Also if Bitcoin becomes large enough there will be competitors in the ASIC space.  If Bitcoin remains tiny and insignificant then it doesn't really matter if all the hashing hardware comes from a single company.

Right now about ~90% (stat pull out of my ass) of the hashing hardware DOES come from a single company ... AMD.  Strange when you built your 11 GH/s of rigs that fact didn't scare you.  Why weren't you pushing to make the algorithm dynamic and platform neutral so that Nvidia and Intel could be viable hashing suppliers?

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June 18, 2012, 02:28:41 PM
 #3

Do you REALLY think that the guys that have developed GPU kernels and spent hours and hours optimizing them really want to re-do all their hard work just because of a non-existent problem? What you would get is some non-optimized kernels for the new version, with all the optimizations being done by private farm owners, resulting in them STILL being faster than you, even on the new algorithm.

In essence the ONLY reason to change the algorithm is if there is a security problem with it, which at the moment there is not.

Mining Rig Extraordinaire - the Trenton BPX6806 18-slot PCIe backplane [PICS] Dead project is dead, all hail the coming of the mighty ASIC!
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June 18, 2012, 02:30:11 PM
 #4

Strange when you built your 11 GH/s of rigs that fact didn't scare you. 

It's not the same. I am running 4 rigs that use off the shelf multi-purpose desktop hardware, available to anyone....not quite the same as BFL's ASICs.

Even if I were to use FPGAs, the speeds have slowly been climbing at a REASONABLE RATE that the Bitcoin infrastructure can manage. 40 GH for $1300 ?. Everyone will suddenly be a 1TH miner using specialized equipment and those who want to 'play' using their desktop hardware won't be able to.

'Spirit' killing....

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June 18, 2012, 02:31:42 PM
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Strange when you built your 11 GH/s of rigs that fact didn't scare you. 

It's not the same. I am running 4 rigs that use off the shelf multi-purpose desktop hardware, available to anyone....not quite the same as BFL's ASICs.

Even if I were to use FPGAs, the speeds have slowly been climbing at a REASONABLE RATE that the Bitcoin infrastructure can manage. 40 GH for $1300 ?. Everyone will suddenly be a 1TH miner using specialized equipment and those who want to 'play' using their desktop hardware won't be able to.

'Spirit' killing....
They also have great resale value should you decide to upgrade, if BFL even makes something within the next while.

Mining Rig Extraordinaire - the Trenton BPX6806 18-slot PCIe backplane [PICS] Dead project is dead, all hail the coming of the mighty ASIC!
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June 18, 2012, 02:33:23 PM
 #6

GPU killed the ability for users to "play" with the CPUs a long time ago.  That feature was removed from the client for a reason.  28nm FPGA would be the death blow to GPU mining anyways.  Difficulty would in time more than triple and put GPU miners under water.

Most end users are never going to build a rig.  The reality is with a simple plug and play hashing unit they might buy one and plug it into the wall.  I could see a form factor which plugs into the wall and has a single ethernet port, a reset button, and web interface.  

Still I wouldn't worry.  Given BFL inability to deliver anything on time if I was a betting man I would put the over/under line on first retail delivery being March 2013 and it likely will take 6 months before they can move enough units to kill GPU mining.  Most likely my farm will be at end of life by then anyways.
bitlane
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June 18, 2012, 02:33:52 PM
 #7

First off, don't get me wrong. If ASICs are going to come in at the prices that BFL posted, you can bet that I will be running 1TH myself...

It's not cheap-ass sour grapes on my part. I have the cash to play...but what about the community as a whole ?

As I said....SPIRIT KILLING...the Spirit of Bitcoin.

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June 18, 2012, 02:35:22 PM
 #8

Yep, and let's put Ben Bernanke in charge of timing of block subsidy as well as network difficulty selection for the next two weeks while we are at it.


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June 18, 2012, 02:35:47 PM
 #9

I can no longer mine Bitcoins on my computer's CPU in the background.

For this, I hold the GPU miners responsible. Please stop GPU mining.

http://www.bitpools.com
Pool your bitcoins with others. Vote on solutions using the Bitcoin blockchain. Keep your bitcoins in your cold storage until you find a solution you like.
Links and Reviews of useful every day places to spend bitcoins: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=943143.0
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June 18, 2012, 02:37:29 PM
 #10

As I said....SPIRIT KILLING...the Spirit of Bitcoin.

Last post before you back on ignore.  

Bitcoin =/= mining.  

If anything way too much time/effort/resources has been spent on mining/miners/rig designs/pools/mining-distros/mining-bonds/etc and not enough on END USER PRODUCTS AND SERVICES.  That isn't an attack or slam it is logical that mining would form the initial core but at some point Bitcoin needs to expand beyond that.

Bitcoin =/= mining

Bitcoin =/= mining

Bitcoin =/= mining

Stop mining (when you are forced to) and take that passion and drive and build something (anything) which makes Bitcoin better.  I am no longer expanding my farm, and eventually will be forced to turn it off and guess what ... I have never been more exciting about Bitcoin. Cellcoin is a fun and exciting project.  Maybe it won't go anywhere but I am having fun USING Bitcoin to create value.

I hate to break it to you but your mom, and non techy friends, and small business owner couldn't give two rats farts about what makes Bitcoin secure.  They only care that it IS secure, has value, and they can make/save money using it.  The last element has been sorely neglected.  Be part of the solution to fix that.
bitlane
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June 18, 2012, 02:38:27 PM
 #11

So everyone is onboard for BFL's ASIC release ?

...then THAT solves that.

If the 'Fun' gets taken out of Bitcoin Mining for pure profit and who can crack 10 TH....then count me in.

I just believe that this will become a very lonely place with nothing but big spenders doing all of the mining.

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June 18, 2012, 02:39:00 PM
 #12

First off, don't get me wrong. If ASICs are going to come in at the prices that BFL posted, you can bet that I will be running 1TH myself...

It's not cheap-ass sour grapes on my part. I have the cash to play...but what about the community as a whole ?

As I said....SPIRIT KILLING...the Spirit of Bitcoin.

Community as a whole is doing just fine. It is just some guys who ignored the warnings and spent too much on their brand spanking new FPGA's are begging for special treatment now. Well, tough titty, your pleas will fall on deaf ears.

Now tell me did you really think that FPGA's will last for 18-24 month?


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June 18, 2012, 02:39:56 PM
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u just mad cuz ur 7970s are becoming worthless for mining Grin
bitlane
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June 18, 2012, 02:44:26 PM
 #14

Community as a whole is doing just fine. It is just some guys who ignored the warnings and spent too much on their brand spanking new FPGA's are begging for special treatment now. Well, tough titty, your pleas will fall on deaf ears.

WTF are you taking about retard ? I DON'T OWN FPGAs.... I own GPUs and have NO problem with them. I will also own ASICs and will have no problem spending the additional money, but when the biggest BFL proponents are left speechless after this latest 'Press Release' what should the rest of the community take away from that ?
...fucking idiot.

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June 18, 2012, 02:56:39 PM
 #15

BFL won't even start shipping for over nine months yet I reckon and then the'll be very slow coming.  They only made that announcement to suck in more FPGA sales with there buy back offer and I reckon the units they produce will actually be twice the price for half the hashing power they just announced.  I expect FPGA's bought at least in the next three months to pay them self's back with a profit yet so I'm still buying them until OpenBitASIC - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=76351.0 - start tacking pre-orders.  Opensource-hardware for opensource-software all they way.

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June 18, 2012, 03:34:02 PM
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Killing GPU mining is probably a good step forward for BTC.

Get people to stop thinking of BTC as a chance to print their own money and make it, you know, a currency to be used and exchanged.

Offering Video/Audio Editing Services since 2011 - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=77932.0
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June 18, 2012, 04:15:21 PM
 #17

Only until BFL develops quantum miners will I agree to algorithm changes, or if someone breaks the current algorithm.  Reminds me of the time when CPU miners were shut out due to GPU miners.  Yawn.

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June 18, 2012, 04:21:24 PM
 #18

DeathAndTaxes pretty much already destroyed your FUD, OP, but I do want to make two additional points:

1. Bitcoin is open source so feel free and change the algorithm yourself, anything the devs could do, you can do

2. don't pretend to be smarter than the a market regulated by strictly it's consumers (i.e. the free market) because you're not

My personality type: INTJ - please forgive my weaknesses (Not naturally in tune with others feelings; may be insensitive at times, tend to respond to conflict with logic and reason, tend to believe I'm always right)

If however you enjoyed my post: 15j781DjuJeVsZgYbDVt2NZsGrWKRWFHpp
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June 18, 2012, 04:22:43 PM
 #19

Even Gavin thinks the BFL coffee warmer is cool:

http://twitter.com/gavinandresen/status/214508819483598848

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June 18, 2012, 04:29:55 PM
 #20

The whole BFL announcement is currently a whole lot of nothing. Nothing. There were many parts that didn't make any sense either, the electricity efficiency is off the scale and the pricing is ridiculously low. I wouldn't even THINK about this before there is something more solid let alone wonder into any conclusions about the consequences. There are no consequences right now because there is nothing.

I would bet that if these products will even exist with those specs (which I find HIGHLY unlikely), they will not be out this year. So just chill out. However I have to say that even if everything was true and they could deliver right now, it wouldn't be the end of the world. ASIC is not a question of if, it's a question of when.

It would be insane for ASIC producers to hoard all the chips for themselves and use them on the network directly because of the trust erosion it would cause for Bitcoin. No one can be allowed to have the power of a 51% attack and any business minded entity will voluntarily skip that route. It's gargantually more profitable to sell those chips so that they're distributed. So I wouldn't really worry about this in any case.

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