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Author Topic: Can someone please explain to me WHY I should accept BTC over gold or silver?  (Read 5956 times)
cypherdoc
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May 20, 2011, 01:38:47 AM
 #41

A payment in a commodity that has no known exchange rate for any given time. A commodity that is very new and its future uncertain to those new to the BTC.

That's long term uncertainty. Take payments in BTC, sell the BTC in the short term and make your prices reflect that uncertainty. Then, if/when BTC crashes, it won't matter. It's fairly straightforward. You expand your market by accepting more than one method of payment.

Are you actually running a business that this would apply to or are you just looking for a debate?

I don't own any BTC and only heard about it last week. I came here because I wanted to see what the likely economic discussions were regarding BTC and other asset classes.

I DO own many USD which over the past five years or so I have been steadily trading for other things that will appreciate more, such as equities and commodities. Basically beyond paying for groceries and utility bills, USD serves basically two roles for me: to trade for gold equities and commodities, and to pay for things in the remote chance that my credit cards are declined. So as far as short-term currencies go, I am not really interested in holding things short-term unless I want to speculate, but there doesn't seem to be much opportunity to speculate in BTC.

I have read some of the posts on here regarding anticipated problems concerning the longer term viability of BTC, but I am still left wondering why I should accept BTC as payment for something. If you can pay me in USD, CAD, AUD, or gold or something, then why should I choose BTC over any of those other items?

EDIT: I mean it seems to me that basically it boils down to confidence in the currency to stay viable over the long-term. And since newcomers are not going to instantly understand the cryptopgraphic principles behind BTC, why do you expect that this will continue to grow?

in comparison to USD, btc's will level off in supply which will at the least stabilize if not increase their value. 
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cypherdoc
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May 20, 2011, 01:42:23 AM
 #42

You need to check out www.mtgox.com if you think there isn't ample opportunity to speculate in bitcoins.

I notice on that website they allow users to trade in dark pools. This basically allows for large transactions to occur without sending a corresponding price signal to other market participants. How exactly is this beneficial to the market as whole, as opposed to those in the dark pools?

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Why not pay in USD?  Uhhh, good question.  I think the idea is that USD is an inflationary currency controlled by the government, and not many people here like the idea of their money being devalued at the whim of the government.  Also, anonymity, though you already mentioned that that wasn't an important factor for you.  Also, easier to do.  You can send USD with services like Paypal, but it can be complicated, and you can get chargebacks as a seller, etc.  Mostly it's the lack of central control - that no one else can add money to the supply at any time.  It's completely secure in that manner, in that there will never be more than 21 million coins in total.

I accept your opinion that USD is not a good store of value. As I said earlier, USD is basically a short-term currency for me as I am more interested in purchasing equities and commodities as stores of value. In this respect, USD seems to be a superior choice for a short-term currency because it is accepted is many more places than BTC, it is readily recognizable to basically everyone on the globe, and it can be transacted easily in physical form without a need for computerized devices.

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Why not pay in gold?  Because not very many people accept straight-up gold as payment anymore.  Because it is difficult to know the exact value of the gold you hold.  Because you have to go through the whole process of selling gold, getting your gold verified, getting a goldgram, sending said goldgram, etc.  Bitcoin is EASY.  You just copy/paste an address you want to send bitcoins to, enter the total number to send, and bam.  You're done.

Not many people in countries that have been dominated by banking and mortgage markets. For example I can buy a very, very nice property in Viet Nam with a very large amount of open land for just few gold coins. The value of the coins can be easily determined by looking at central exchanges located in any number of different cities on the globe. It is not the fault of gold that Westerners do not know the value of it and I would not consider that a weak point against gold.

What do you think is the best way I can trade my BTC for the same property in Viet Nam? What angle should I use?

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You can use a service like clearcoin to ensure the seller delivers.  If they don't, you can have the funds refunded to your account.  Of course, this poses a risk to the seller as well...

How does clearcoin operate and how do they verify transactions? What kind of a commission do they charge?

i agree, the dark pools should be eliminated.  still, btc is not a manipulated mkt like the USD or pm's
DERP
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May 20, 2011, 01:42:44 AM
 #43


the btc economy has exploded and is moving much quicker that pm businesses.  much faster and easier than pm's.

the exchange price of pm's is hardly realistic with all the manipulation by JPM and GS as u know.  huge distortions with all the paper pm's like SLV/GLD.  we do have an active mtgox exchange.  not perfect but not bad.

If the BTC economy has exploded wouldn't there be more than like 30 places on the internet that accept it?

Is there a central place where we can go to new show stores opening up or accepting BTC showcased? How often do no BTC accepting stores become available?
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May 20, 2011, 01:43:29 AM
 #44

As with any investment, there is a certain amount of risk involved. Most here believe bitcoins will appreciate in value and would advise in favor. Then again, if we felt otherwise, we probably wouldn't be here.  Smiley

What risk could there possibly be? One guy in here told me that BTC will have a better return than gold!
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May 20, 2011, 01:45:48 AM
 #45

i agree, the dark pools should be eliminated.  still, btc is not a manipulated mkt like the USD or pm's

You know, I was asking about this yesterday in a few different places and basically what people told me was "yeah, it can be used to manipulate the market, but the liquidity it provides more than makes up for it" now gee where have I heard that before?
cypherdoc
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May 20, 2011, 01:47:42 AM
 #46

As with any investment, there is a certain amount of risk involved. Most here believe bitcoins will appreciate in value and would advise in favor. Then again, if we felt otherwise, we probably wouldn't be here.  Smiley

What risk could there possibly be? One guy in here told me that BTC will have a better return than gold!

it already has!
cypherdoc
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May 20, 2011, 01:49:38 AM
 #47


the btc economy has exploded and is moving much quicker that pm businesses.  much faster and easier than pm's.

the exchange price of pm's is hardly realistic with all the manipulation by JPM and GS as u know.  huge distortions with all the paper pm's like SLV/GLD.  we do have an active mtgox exchange.  not perfect but not bad.

If the BTC economy has exploded wouldn't there be more than like 30 places on the internet that accept it?

Is there a central place where we can go to new show stores opening up or accepting BTC showcased? How often do no BTC accepting stores become available?

look at the btc wiki for a list.  i've also come to the conclusion that a large economy might not necessary for btc to grow in value as long as the algorithm stays as is.
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May 20, 2011, 01:51:47 AM
 #48

As with any investment, there is a certain amount of risk involved. Most here believe bitcoins will appreciate in value and would advise in favor. Then again, if we felt otherwise, we probably wouldn't be here.  Smiley

What risk could there possibly be? One guy in here told me that BTC will have a better return than gold!

it already has!

For you maybe, but not necessarily for the new coming.

What exactly do you think is driving the price up? I mean, I don't really see new bitcoin stores opening all over the place, just the small number of the list posted above.

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look at the btc wiki for a list.  i've also come to the conclusion that a large economy might not necessary for btc to grow in value as long as the algorithm stays as is.

I already referred to the list, but the point was that how is it supposed to function as a currency if there are only a tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny number of stores willing to accept it. I think people forgetting that this is supposed to be a currency, not really an investment. (Or maybe to other it is supposed to be investment, but as currency it's not really good to have such a small people using it was a currency and the vast majority speculating in it.)
DERP
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May 20, 2011, 01:54:08 AM
 #49

What is stopping from me wash trading BTC?
bitcool
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May 20, 2011, 02:05:52 AM
 #50

This is a frequently overlooked point.

A related fantasy is that no profit is real until you convert it to dollars.
There's also herd mentality: Everyone is in dollar, so if Titanic sinks, that's okay, I am not alone. Jumping to a smaller ship? no thanks.
rezin777
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May 20, 2011, 02:13:15 AM
 #51

I already referred to the list, but the point was that how is it supposed to function as a currency if there are only a tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny number of stores willing to accept it. I think people forgetting that this is supposed to be a currency, not really an investment. (Or maybe to other it is supposed to be investment, but as currency it's not really good to have such a small people using it was a currency and the vast majority speculating in it.)

It's new. Stores aren't going to all start accepting Bitcoin immediately. Some might want the exchange rate to settle down. Some might not have the technical know how. Some haven't even heard about Bitcoin yet. Etc.

It is growing though. So, we shall see.

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May 20, 2011, 02:16:48 AM
 #52

I already referred to the list, but the point was that how is it supposed to function as a currency if there are only a tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny number of stores willing to accept it. I think people forgetting that this is supposed to be a currency, not really an investment. (Or maybe to other it is supposed to be investment, but as currency it's not really good to have such a small people using it was a currency and the vast majority speculating in it.)

It's new. Stores aren't going to all start accepting Bitcoin immediately. Some might want the exchange rate to settle down. Some might not have the technical know how. Some haven't even heard about Bitcoin yet. Etc.

It is growing though. So, we shall see.



Well is there a place that actually does showcase NEW stores?

I mean, yeah, I can look through that list every week, but I won't necessarily notice when new shops pop up.
rezin777
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May 20, 2011, 02:21:15 AM
 #53

Well is there a place that actually does showcase NEW stores?

I mean, yeah, I can look through that list every week, but I won't necessarily notice when new shops pop up.

If such a place exists, I don't know about it.
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May 20, 2011, 03:04:53 AM
 #54

This is a frequently overlooked point.

A related fantasy is that no profit is real until you convert it to dollars.
There's also herd mentality: Everyone is in dollar, so if Titanic sinks, that's okay, I am not alone. Jumping to a smaller ship? no thanks.

Yep it is natural, but scary when you think closer though. If I go broke alone there are people around to help me, but if we all go broke together we're super screwed.

Play Bitcoin Poker at sealswithclubs.eu. We're active and open to everyone.
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May 20, 2011, 03:12:47 AM
 #55

I already referred to the list, but the point was that how is it supposed to function as a currency if there are only a tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny number of stores willing to accept it. I think people forgetting that this is supposed to be a currency, not really an investment. (Or maybe to other it is supposed to be investment, but as currency it's not really good to have such a small people using it was a currency and the vast majority speculating in it.)

It's new. Stores aren't going to all start accepting Bitcoin immediately. Some might want the exchange rate to settle down. Some might not have the technical know how. Some haven't even heard about Bitcoin yet. Etc.

It is growing though. So, we shall see.



Well is there a place that actually does showcase NEW stores?

I mean, yeah, I can look through that list every week, but I won't necessarily notice when new shops pop up.

It would be cool to date new merchants so we can see growth easily.

I'd guess the number of new this month is the same as the number up until this month.

Each one used to be news and get me excited, but now they just keep coming.


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DERP
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May 20, 2011, 03:15:54 AM
 #56

I already referred to the list, but the point was that how is it supposed to function as a currency if there are only a tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny number of stores willing to accept it. I think people forgetting that this is supposed to be a currency, not really an investment. (Or maybe to other it is supposed to be investment, but as currency it's not really good to have such a small people using it was a currency and the vast majority speculating in it.)

It's new. Stores aren't going to all start accepting Bitcoin immediately. Some might want the exchange rate to settle down. Some might not have the technical know how. Some haven't even heard about Bitcoin yet. Etc.

It is growing though. So, we shall see.



Well is there a place that actually does showcase NEW stores?

I mean, yeah, I can look through that list every week, but I won't necessarily notice when new shops pop up.

It would be cool to date new merchants so we can see growth easily.

I'd guess the number of new this month is the same as the number up until this month.

Each one used to be news and get me excited, but now they just keep coming.



Yeah second this. I want to see growth. Just having a list of 30 stores or whatever for your new currency is pitiful, but it might not look that way if there is rapid growth.
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May 20, 2011, 03:22:40 AM
 #57

What is stopping from me wash trading BTC?

Nothing, since you have multiple addresses.  There is nothing illegal or immoral about moving your Bitcoins between them.

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May 20, 2011, 03:27:38 AM
 #58

What is stopping from me wash trading BTC?

Nothing, since you have multiple addresses.  There is nothing illegal or immoral about moving your Bitcoins between them.

Really, there's nothing immoral about trading something back and forth to try to drive up price and activity for the sole purpose of taking advantage of other market participants who don't know what you're doing?
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May 20, 2011, 07:57:30 AM
 #59

Really, there's nothing immoral about trading something back and forth to try to drive up price and activity for the sole purpose of taking advantage of other market participants who don't know what you're doing?

Yes, really.  There's no inherent relationship between price and volume.  You take the risk by inferring one.  Market data is not guaranteed by anyone.  No one else can decide for you what price you are willing to pay for something, be it Bitcoins or bread at the grocery store.  If the price is too high, don't buy it.

Civil Liberty Through Complex Mathematics
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May 20, 2011, 08:12:49 AM
 #60

What exactly do you think is driving the price up? I mean, I don't really see new bitcoin stores opening all over the place, just the small number of the list posted above.

What exactly do you think drove the price of gold up? I mean, I don't  really see any stores out there accepting gold as payment...

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