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Author Topic: Can someone please explain to me WHY I should accept BTC over gold or silver?  (Read 5953 times)
DERP
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May 20, 2011, 09:28:23 AM
 #61

What exactly do you think is driving the price up? I mean, I don't really see new bitcoin stores opening all over the place, just the small number of the list posted above.

What exactly do you think drove the price of gold up? I mean, I don't  really see any stores out there accepting gold as payment...

Certainly not neckbeards thinking they're going to get rich by sitting at their computers. There is an increased demand for commodities gold in particular because there has been an excess of dollars put into the economy.

Is that why you think Bitcoins are going up? Because people want out of the dollar? Is that why you answered my question with yet another question? Gold didn't just pop up last week through a computer program set to "generate gold". There is definitely a confidence disparity between the two.
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caveden
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May 20, 2011, 09:32:33 AM
 #62

See my first two posts on this thread, please.

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DERP
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May 20, 2011, 09:32:42 AM
 #63

Really, there's nothing immoral about trading something back and forth to try to drive up price and activity for the sole purpose of taking advantage of other market participants who don't know what you're doing?

Yes, really.  There's no inherent relationship between price and volume.  You take the risk by inferring one.  Market data is not guaranteed by anyone.  No one else can decide for you what price you are willing to pay for something, be it Bitcoins or bread at the grocery store.  If the price is too high, don't buy it.

I think it speaks for itself when members of the Bitcoin community think outright deception and market manipulation is not immoral. You're essentially tricking people into paying higher prices for your own benefit. Compared to the small number of stores accepting Bitcoin, how can this prosper as a currency is so many people are using not as an actual currency, but just as yet another speculative, rigged market?
DERP
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May 20, 2011, 09:42:52 AM
 #64

See my first two posts on this thread, please.

You linked to charts of gold production over a period of time and Bitcoin production over a period of time and inferred based on these two charts that I should buy Bitcoins over gold. Well here is a similar chart I came up with, only it projects out to a much further period of time. What do you think? Is it a good time to buy?

http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/1875/toiletpaper.png
benjamindees
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May 20, 2011, 09:47:03 AM
 #65



DERP, your question was answered three times on the first page of this thread.  At this point, you're just trolling.

Wash trading is regulated in some markets because of some dumb IRS rules that allow you to write-off losses and force other people (taxpayers) to bear them instead.  Freedom is a much more moral system than subsidized stupidity coupled with an incompetent regulatory regime.

If you actually knew what the value of gold were based on, I would suggest that you buy it.  But it doesn't seem like that is the case, so if you have a use for Bitcoins then it would be in your best interest to use them instead.

Civil Liberty Through Complex Mathematics
DERP
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May 20, 2011, 09:55:13 AM
 #66



DERP, your question was answered three times on the first page of this thread.  At this point, you're just trolling.

Wash trading is regulated in some markets because of some dumb IRS rules that allow you to write-off losses and force other people (taxpayers) to bear them instead.  Freedom is a much more moral system than subsidized stupidity coupled with an incompetent regulatory regime.

Sorry if you think it's trolling that I don't dump my money into Bitcoin because on two production charts sans argument.
Basiley
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May 20, 2011, 10:14:24 AM
 #67

same idea/question about gold in many people heads, topicstarter.
use an escrow service if you don't want to expose yourself to that kind of risk
or use brokers with deal insurance.
benjamindees
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May 20, 2011, 10:47:16 AM
 #68

Your original question was about accepting Bitcoin for payment.  Now you seem to want to argue about investing in Bitcoin.

No one is here to give you investment advice.  This isn't Bitcoin Customer Service and I sure as hell am not selling any.  So the only reason I'm "wasting my time" with you at this point is because you accused me of trying to rip people off.

If you are concerned about "market manipulation", then you are free to create an exchange that attempts to prevent it.  Otherwise, Bitcoin is backed by nothing so Caveat Emptor.

Quote from: DERP
quit wasting your time with this alleged troll.

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DERP
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May 20, 2011, 11:03:10 AM
 #69

Your original question was about accepting Bitcoin for payment.  Now you seem to want to argue about investing in Bitcoin.

No one is here to give you investment advice.  This isn't Bitcoin Customer Service and I sure as hell am not selling any.  So the only reason I'm "wasting my time" with you at this point is because you accused me of trying to rip people off.

If you are concerned about "market manipulation", then you are free to create an exchange that attempts to prevent it.  Otherwise, Bitcoin is backed by nothing so Caveat Emptor.

Quote from: DERP
quit wasting your time with this alleged troll.

Excuse me, but where did I accuse you of ripping people off? Please use the quote function and show me where I personally accused you of ripping people off. Go ahead. I'll wait.

By the way, I like how you put market manipulation in quotations as though you've never heard of it before.
caveden
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May 20, 2011, 11:25:19 AM
 #70

To the good listener, half a word is enough.
If you can't understand the implications of everything that was repeatedly explained here on this topic, I don't think there's much more to be said.

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DERP
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May 20, 2011, 11:39:26 AM
 #71

To the good listener, half a word is enough.
If you can't understand the implications of everything that was repeatedly explained here on this topic, I don't think there's much more to be said.

I'm not the one who doesn't understand the implications. Say fellows, what happens to a currency when the greatest demand for it comes not from consumers looking to purchase products or as a store of value, but instead is a bunch of people looking to speculate in the currency?

But since you don't have more to say, don't let the door hit you on the way out. I don't really mind if you stay, but I guess everyone on here is a permanent bitcoin bull no matter what. To be honest, I would be very concerned if one of my assets appreciated in value by ten times in just a month.
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May 20, 2011, 11:51:35 AM
 #72

I'm not the one who doesn't understand the implications. Say fellows, what happens to a currency when the greatest demand for it comes not from consumers looking to purchase products or as a store of value, but instead is a bunch of people looking to speculate in the currency?

But since you don't have more to say, don't let the door hit you on the way out.

That's a pretty wild claim. There are 3 actors in the BTC market: Long term investers, Miners (sellers), and day traders/speculators. Miners are accounted for, so the only unkown is the balance between adopters and speculators.

If you look at the price history, BTC hit $9, quickly fell back to ~$7.5 and is now slowly depreciating, with volumes around 7-15k a day on Gox. The mining speed witnessed for the past 2 weeks is about 10k BTC minted a day, so the figures match, and right now it is very much likely most speculators have exited the market and are waiting for the next press hit that will bring a flow of new investors.

Moreover, I say your claim is wild because it is overly pessimistic to expect a market to be only fueled by speculators, without a base of support, even more on a market you can't down-trade. Those speculators would understand they'd be technically playing poker against each other if they were to be the main market makers, and no speculator wants that.

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barbarousrelic
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May 20, 2011, 01:07:19 PM
 #73

Bitcoin is not for everyone. I think this forum would be improved if, after answering the question and presenting a case for Bitcoin, we accept that some people still won't want it, no matter what we say here. And it's OK for people to not want Bitcoin.

Do not waste your time debating whether Bitcoin can work. It does work.

"Early adopters will profit" is not a sufficient condition to classify something as a pyramid or Ponzi scheme. If it was, Apple and Microsoft stock are Ponzi schemes.

There is no such thing as "market manipulation." There is only buying and selling.
RustyShackleford
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May 20, 2011, 06:01:13 PM
 #74

Can't believe nobody's mentioned that you don't have to weigh or try to figure out "change" for BTC, but I guess that doesn't apply if the transactions you are making are things like investments/land.

I can't imagine trying to pay for my groceries in gold. I can't imagine a minimum wage cashier trying to appraise and then make change for my gold.

I CAN imagine them letting me out the door with an unconfirmed transaction assuming they were standing there watching me send the coins to their address. I can also imagine them requiring my contact information for this transaction, as many stores do when you write a check. Either that, or send the amount of the transaction to a new address and then hand them the private key for it.
Justsomeforumuser
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May 21, 2011, 12:57:47 AM
 #75

I'm not the one who doesn't understand the implications. Say fellows, what happens to a currency when the greatest demand for it comes not from consumers looking to purchase products or as a store of value, but instead is a bunch of people looking to speculate in the currency?

I guess everyone on here is a permanent bitcoin bull no matter what. To be honest, I would be very concerned if one of my assets appreciated in value by ten times in just a month.

There is something very wrong in this thread in literally every post except perhaps 1-2 like this one.
(Gold took what, around 5-7 years to gain 500%, $300 to $1500? BTC went from 1$ to 8$ in a month or two.)

Otherwise we have the same tilting at windmills (coming here and arguing about potential flaws/risks in BTC is like being a PC user and trying to tell mac people that they are paying a 50-150% markup for an ultimately samey/inferior product) as usual.

So don't feel bad. Tongue
One should maybe try to establish one single generic-thread where in a kind of FAQ fashion these points(and pseudo-counterpoints) that continuously come up time and again are listed, so one can refer to it. Tongue

I still contend that one way or the other, it will be interesting what the future brings/holds, and just how crazy / interesting the development eventually will be..
Still wild roots right now indeed.


P.S. Woulda expected a bit more unexpected sophistication from someone clearly going the chan route of calling himself DERP and chanting neckbeard. :p

-
Both sides have a point. On the one hand, if enough nutters remain interested, it can run as long as any scheme can(Gold interest is also created and maintained by mostly a shared belief that it has value mostly because people believe it has value. You don't "need" Gold for much of anything. At all. No, really. You don't.).
On the other - deck of cards / wild volatility for the valuation is a very real scenario, too.

Ho-Hum.
cypherdoc
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May 21, 2011, 01:38:47 AM
 #76

What is stopping from me wash trading BTC?

Nothing, since you have multiple addresses.  There is nothing illegal or immoral about moving your Bitcoins between them.

Really, there's nothing immoral about trading something back and forth to try to drive up price and activity for the sole purpose of taking advantage of other market participants who don't know what you're doing?


you can try to do this but you could easily get screwed.  as you're walking the price up or down, another trader can step btwn your paired wash sale and take you out of your planned position and you'd be stuck.  this is the concept behind high frequency trading.  the manipulators supercomputers can flash orders or execute a manipulated trade faster than u can blink an eye.  they also can get screwed by other HFT's as well though, so its a dangerous game.
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