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Author Topic: Timekoin  (Read 21087 times)
steelhouse
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June 24, 2012, 01:40:45 AM
 #21

What I mean by database is that you don't have one long chain text file.  Instead each coin operates as its own.  Thus, you go into the database and change a coin to a new owner.  However, the blockchain does not grow.   

I don't know if this is how it works or even if it would work.
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June 24, 2012, 07:54:11 AM
 #22

What I mean by database is that you don't have one long chain text file.  Instead each coin operates as its own.  Thus, you go into the database and change a coin to a new owner.  However, the blockchain does not grow.   

I don't know if this is how it works or even if it would work.

This is how the contemporary banking system solves things: keep account balances in database, protect database centrally.

Now if you go from your idea (have a list of coins and an owner attached) and change it so that the previous owner has to sign a transaction to transfer ownership to someone elses key, you'd have something like open transactions, right?

Still... are you talking about a centrally administered database? If so: how do you expect people to trust the operator? If not: how would you go about decentralizing the database?

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June 24, 2012, 08:04:35 AM
 #23

I don't know how open transactions works, but I don't like how complicated it is.  Seems there are contracts to do this and that, and we want is a coin.  If you had a lot of 5 and 10 coins it would save space too.
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June 25, 2012, 06:53:27 AM
 #24

I've skimmed through the Whitepaper, and haven't been able to answer these simple questions:

1. What problem is it trying to solve (that Bitcoin doesn't already solve)?
2. How does it work? What is the difference/similarity in implementation from Bitcoin?

Please do not pm me, use ron@bitcoin.org.il instead
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June 25, 2012, 12:56:42 PM
 #25

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June 28, 2012, 10:59:43 AM
 #26

I don't know how open transactions works, but I don't like how complicated it is.  Seems there are contracts to do this and that, and we want is a coin.  If you had a lot of 5 and 10 coins it would save space too.

Complicated??

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SHOW ACCOUNT BALANCE (on server):

~/Projects/Open-Transactions/include
> opentxs balance

Welcome to Open Transactions -- version 0.82.h
PLEASE SIGN YOUR PASSPHRASE:

    Balance: 1211
eMldMMiKfJRO8B8yJjzcezs9xvSt7dkdlWt50e8CDxn   (FT's Silver)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SOURCE CODE for "balance" command, using OT API:

Code:
def details_account_balance(strID)
{
    var strName          = OT_API_GetAccountWallet_Name(strID)
    var strBalance       = OT_API_GetAccountWallet_Balance(strID)
    
    OT_API_Output(0, "\n    Balance: ") //stderr
    print(strBalance) // stdout
    OT_API_Output(0, strID + "   (" + strName + ")\n\n") //stderr
}
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SHOW CASH PURSE (on local client):

~/Projects/Open-Transactions/include
> opentxs showpurse

Welcome to Open Transactions -- version 0.82.h
PLEASE SIGN YOUR PASSPHRASE:

Total value: 1
Token count: 1

Index   Value   Series   ValidFrom      ValidTo      Status
0         1      0      1339606926   1355158926      valid


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

WITHDRAW CASH:

~/Projects/Open-Transactions/include
> opentxs withdraw

Welcome to Open Transactions -- version 0.82.h
PLEASE SIGN YOUR PASSPHRASE:

Enter the amount as integer[1]: 109

Server response (withdraw_cash): SUCCESS withdrawing cash! (From account on server, to local purse.)
Success retrieving intermediary files for account.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SOURCE CODE for withdraw cash:

Code:
   var madeEasy = OT_ME()

    var strResponse = madeEasy.withdraw_cash(Server, strMyNymID, MyAcct, strAmount)
    var strAttempt  = "withdraw_cash"
    // ***************************************************************
    
    // Interpret the server's reply...
    
    var nInterpretReply = InterpretTransactionMsgReply(Server, strMyNymID, MyAcct, strAttempt, strResponse)
    
    if (1 == nInterpretReply)
    {    
        // Download all the intermediary files (account balance, inbox, outbox, etc)
        // since they have probably changed from this operation.
        //
        var bRetrieved = madeEasy.retrieve_account(Server, strMyNymID, MyAcct) //bForceDownload defaults to false.
        
        OT_API_Output(0, "\n\nServer response ("+strAttempt+"): SUCCESS withdrawing cash! (From account on server to local purse.) \n")
        OT_API_Output(0, (bRetrieved ? "Success" : "Failed") + " retrieving intermediary files for account.\n")
    }

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

VIEW (UPDATED) BALANCE (on server):

~/Projects/Open-Transactions/include
> opentxs balance

Welcome to Open Transactions -- version 0.82.h
PLEASE SIGN YOUR PASSPHRASE:

    Balance: 1102
eMldMMiKfJRO8B8yJjzcezs9xvSt7dkdlWt50e8CDxn   (FT's Silver)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

VIEW UPDATED PURSE (on local client):

~/Projects/Open-Transactions/include
> opentxs showpurse

Welcome to Open Transactions -- version 0.82.h
PLEASE SIGN YOUR PASSPHRASE:

Total value: 110
Token count: 7

Index   Value   Series   ValidFrom   ValidTo   Status
0      1      0   1339606926   1355158926      valid
1      100      0   1339606926   1355158926      valid
2      1      0   1339606926   1355158926      valid
3      5      0   1339606926   1355158926      valid
4      1      0   1339606926   1355158926      valid
5      1      0   1339606926   1355158926      valid
6      1      0   1339606926   1355158926      valid


~/Projects/Open-Transactions/include
>

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SOURCE CODE for "show purse":

Code:
           var strAmount = OT_API_Purse_GetTotalValue(Server, MyPurse, strPurse)
            print("\n\nTotal value: " + strAmount)
            
            // Loop through purse contents and display tokens.
            var nCount =  OT_API_Purse_Count(Server, MyPurse, strPurse)
            // ----------------------
            if (nCount > 0)
            {
                print("Token count: " + nCount.to_string() + "\n")
                print("Index\tValue\tSeries\tValidFrom\tValidTo\t\tStatus")

                var nIndex = -1
                
                while (nCount > 0)
                {
                    --nCount
                    ++nIndex  // on first iteration, this is now 0.
                    // -------------------
                    var strToken = OT_API_Purse_Peek(Server, MyPurse, MyNym, strPurse)
                    var strNewPurse = OT_API_Purse_Pop(Server, MyPurse, MyNym, strPurse)                    
                    strPurse = strNewPurse
                    // ------------------------------------------
                    var strDenomination = OT_API_Token_GetDenomination(Server, MyPurse, strToken)
                    var nSeries         = OT_API_Token_GetSeries      (Server, MyPurse, strToken)
                    var strValidFrom    = OT_API_Token_GetValidFrom   (Server, MyPurse, strToken)
                    var strValidTo      = OT_API_Token_GetValidTo     (Server, MyPurse, strToken)
                    var strTime         = OT_API_GetTime()
                    // ------------------------------------------
                    // Output the token...
                    
                    var strStatus = (strTime.to_int() > strValidTo.to_int()) ? "expired" : "valid"
                    
                    print(nIndex.to_string() + "\t" + strDenomination + "\t" + nSeries.to_string() + "\t" + strValidFrom + "\t" + strValidTo + "\t" + strStatus)
                    // ------------------------------------------
                } // while
            } // if nCount > 0


No offense, but a trained monkey could write an OT client.

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creator, Open-Transactions
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June 28, 2012, 04:08:15 PM
 #27

No offense, but a trained monkey could write an OT client.

I'm writing one.

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June 28, 2012, 08:35:34 PM
 #28

No offense, but a trained monkey could write an OT client.
I'm writing one.

WOW, there are monkeys on the interwebz ! I always suspected so, but never had any proof !

(Not that i have anything against monkeys, they are great animals)

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June 28, 2012, 09:03:40 PM
 #29

Can anyone please explain the following in plain English ?

Quote from timekoin whitepaper:

Quote
This system for peer to peer electronic encrypted currency relies on a 3-prong security defense
of high encryption keys and hashes connected in a such a way to simulate a virtual Quantum state for
the transaction data where tampering with any part of the process would collapse the entire attempt of
tampering. Due to this virtual entangled state of the data, there is no way to observe and predict what is
inside the transaction until you look inside with the public key. A which point, there is no way to
change the inside of the transaction without tampering with the outside components that constructed it all.

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June 29, 2012, 08:28:45 AM
 #30

"No offense, but a trained monkey could write an OT client."

The description of open transactions is not easy to understand.  Can grandma run open transactions gui client or server?  No.   Why don't you make a gui client similar to the bitcoin client (that is too complicated too Electrum would be Better)   with automatic setup.

Here is a mock GUI

============
Total Quickcoins in circulation fixed at:
Balance Quickcoin:  
send to: ____________ address book
receive from: ____________ address book
============

I don't want to waste braincells to learn what nyms, contracts, baskets, markets, reoccurring, deed/title, escrow, ripple are.  Soon as I saw that goodbye. I want a fixed currency amount that can not be hacked.  I would not even like to see a bitcoin type id but have it hidden, where Id's are actual names.  Hank_Williams:df345r3jtyughn45y654yrhtrthrth
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June 29, 2012, 08:36:15 AM
 #31

"No offense, but a trained monkey could write an OT client."
I can't! So I'll try to find a monkey.

"Unser Problem ist nicht ziviler Ungehorsam, unser Problem ist ziviler Gehorsam."  - Howard Zinn
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June 29, 2012, 08:59:17 AM
 #32

Can anyone please explain the following in plain English ?

Quote from timekoin whitepaper:

Quote
This system for peer to peer electronic encrypted currency relies on a 3-prong security defense
of high encryption keys and hashes connected in a such a way to simulate a virtual Quantum state for
the transaction data where tampering with any part of the process would collapse the entire attempt of
tampering. Due to this virtual entangled state of the data, there is no way to observe and predict what is
inside the transaction until you look inside with the public key. A which point, there is no way to
change the inside of the transaction without tampering with the outside components that constructed it all.

I'd love to understand this better too. From what it sounds like there's a kind of two-way lock/check which means you can't tamper with transactions - you'd have to change both at the same time, but also each depends on the other? Reminds me of the Robin Hood/Friar Tuck virus for some reason..

I've skimmed through the Whitepaper, and haven't been able to answer these simple questions:

1. What problem is it trying to solve (that Bitcoin doesn't already solve)?
2. How does it work? What is the difference/similarity in implementation from Bitcoin?

Not sure on #2, but the main problem the whitepaper sets out seems to be power usage. Have to admit I have a similar concern, but would want to see more evidence on power usage vs power used on other server farms, or for producing all the crappy spam mail I get through my door every day.

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June 29, 2012, 09:07:01 AM
 #33

My understanding is that a hash of the contents provides some of the data for the public key. Change the data and you change the identifier: the public key. It's no longer the same transaction, so it can't be double spent. I'm not completely sure though. The white paper was a bit light on exact detail.

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June 29, 2012, 09:12:41 AM
 #34

"No offense, but a trained monkey could write an OT client."

The description of open transactions is not easy to understand.  Can grandma run open transactions gui client or server?  No.   Why don't you make a gui client similar to the bitcoin client (that is too complicated too Electrum would be Better)   with automatic setup.

I will remind you that Open-Transactions is a software library, not an end-user application. If you want a grandma-friendly UI, then you will have to write it, not me. The only UI I have provided is a test GUI to go along with the API, which is intended only to make things easier for developers by providing sample code for the complete OT API. Don't confuse that test UI (intended for developers using the API) with the proper UI design necessary for end users!

As for who will write the actual "iPhone app" or "Android app" or "Mac app"--each of these is a full project on its own. I cannot write them all. The truth is, there are many different applications that could be written with OT, not just wallets. But again, I cannot write them all. Certainly the amount of free work I am contributing to the cause, with my current project, is already enough? You cannot possibly ask me to take on additional projects!

Here is a mock GUI

============
Total Quickcoins in circulation fixed at:
Balance Quickcoin:  
send to: ____________ address book
receive from: ____________ address book
============

I don't want to waste braincells to learn what nyms, contracts, baskets, markets, reoccurring, deed/title, escrow, ripple are.  Soon as I saw that goodbye. I want a fixed currency amount that can not be hacked.  I would not even like to see a bitcoin type id but have it hidden, where Id's are actual names.  Hank_Williams:df345r3jtyughn45y654yrhtrthrth

Yes, the mock GUI that you propose could easily be implemented using the OT API. Using the sample code above, and other samples I have provided on my "Use Cases" page, you should have no problem doing so. The whole point of OT was to enable you to do so. There is no reason to tell Grandma of contracts, basket currencies, markets, or nyms -- that is a user interface design issue specific to your GUI. I encourage you to take another look at the above sample code and ask yourself if it's really that hard to understand. Also take a look at the samples on the Use Cases page ( https://github.com/FellowTraveler/Open-Transactions/wiki/Use-Cases ) and ask yourself honestly if it's really so complicated to make a GUI like one you describe, using that API.

You might be surprised.

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June 29, 2012, 10:46:42 AM
 #35

Can someone fill me in really quick what TimeKoin is for? The paper is a little too dense for at-work reading.

"No offense, but a trained monkey could write an OT client."

The description of open transactions is not easy to understand.  Can grandma run open transactions gui client or server?  No.   Why don't you make a gui client similar to the bitcoin client (that is too complicated too Electrum would be Better)   with automatic setup.

I will remind you that Open-Transactions is a software library, not an end-user application. If you want a grandma-friendly UI, then you will have to write it, not me. The only UI I have provided is a test GUI to go along with the API, which is intended only to make things easier for developers by providing sample code for the complete OT API. Don't confuse that test UI (intended for developers using the API) with the proper UI design necessary for end users!

As for who will write the actual "iPhone app" or "Android app" or "Mac app"--each of these is a full project on its own. I cannot write them all. The truth is, there are many different applications that could be written with OT, not just wallets. But again, I cannot write them all. Certainly the amount of free work I am contributing to the cause, with my current project, is already enough? You cannot possibly ask me to take on additional projects!

Here is a mock GUI

============
Total Quickcoins in circulation fixed at:
Balance Quickcoin: 
send to: ____________ address book
receive from: ____________ address book
============

I don't want to waste braincells to learn what nyms, contracts, baskets, markets, reoccurring, deed/title, escrow, ripple are.  Soon as I saw that goodbye. I want a fixed currency amount that can not be hacked.  I would not even like to see a bitcoin type id but have it hidden, where Id's are actual names.  Hank_Williams:df345r3jtyughn45y654yrhtrthrth

Yes, the mock GUI that you propose could easily be implemented using the OT API. Using the sample code above, and other samples I have provided on my "Use Cases" page, you should have no problem doing so. The whole point of OT was to enable you to do so. There is no reason to tell Grandma of contracts, basket currencies, markets, or nyms -- that is a user interface design issue specific to your GUI. I encourage you to take another look at the above sample code and ask yourself if it's really that hard to understand. Also take a look at the samples on the Use Cases page ( https://github.com/FellowTraveler/Open-Transactions/wiki/Use-Cases ) and ask yourself honestly if it's really so complicated to make a GUI like one you describe, using that API.

You might be surprised.

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June 30, 2012, 08:17:55 AM
 #36

Can anyone please explain the following in plain English ?

Quote from timekoin whitepaper:

Quote
This system for peer to peer electronic encrypted currency relies on a 3-prong security defense
of high encryption keys and hashes connected in a such a way to simulate a virtual Quantum state for
the transaction data where tampering with any part of the process would collapse the entire attempt of
tampering. Due to this virtual entangled state of the data, there is no way to observe and predict what is
inside the transaction until you look inside with the public key. A which point, there is no way to
change the inside of the transaction without tampering with the outside components that constructed it all.

I'd love to understand this better too. From what it sounds like there's a kind of two-way lock/check which means you can't tamper with transactions - you'd have to change both at the same time, but also each depends on the other? Reminds me of the Robin Hood/Friar Tuck virus for some reason..

Lol, hilarious! Using vocubulary and analogies from/with quantum mechanics to explain some confused made-up cryphtographic mechanism in order to further nebulate the fact that this is totally bogus? Priceless! Similar some esoteric yogic schools now using such vocubalary and misinterpretations of quantum mechanics to somehow "scientifically" support their bullshit made-up crap theories about "cosmic energy" and the soul.

Uuuuh, I don't understand this, must be really advanced technology... or magic??

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June 30, 2012, 08:20:59 AM
 #37

Can anyone please explain the following in plain English ?

Quote from timekoin whitepaper:

Quote
This system for peer to peer electronic encrypted currency relies on a 3-prong security defense
of high encryption keys and hashes connected in a such a way to simulate a virtual Quantum state for
the transaction data where tampering with any part of the process would collapse the entire attempt of
tampering. Due to this virtual entangled state of the data, there is no way to observe and predict what is
inside the transaction until you look inside with the public key. A which point, there is no way to
change the inside of the transaction without tampering with the outside components that constructed it all.

I'd love to understand this better too. From what it sounds like there's a kind of two-way lock/check which means you can't tamper with transactions - you'd have to change both at the same time, but also each depends on the other? Reminds me of the Robin Hood/Friar Tuck virus for some reason..

Lol, hilarious! Using vocubulary and analogies from/with quantum mechanics to explain some confused made-up cryphtographic mechanism in order to further nebulate the fact that this is totally bogus? Priceless! Similar some esoteric yogic schools now using such vocubalary and misinterpretations of quantum mechanics to somehow "scientifically" support their bullshit made-up crap theories about "cosmic energy" and the soul.

Uuuuh, I don't understand this, must be really advanced technology... or magic??


It is open-sourced I believe so i'm not sure what you are complaining about. Who cares if he doesn't know what he is talking about. Go find out for yourself how it work and then come report back to all of us on your findings oh great one  Grin Grin Grin

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June 30, 2012, 08:27:06 AM
 #38

I don't know how open transactions works, but I don't like how complicated it is.  Seems there are contracts to do this and that, and we want is a coin.  If you had a lot of 5 and 10 coins it would save space too.

And I want world peace and free energy for everyone.

PGP key molecular F9B70769 fingerprint 9CDD C0D3 20F8 279F 6BE0  3F39 FC49 2362 F9B7 0769
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June 30, 2012, 08:33:23 AM
 #39

It is open-sourced I believe so i'm not sure what you are complaining about. Who cares if he doesn't know what he is talking about. Go find out for yourself how it work and then come report back to all of us on your findings oh great one  Grin Grin Grin

hey smoothie, I just unignored you.

You raise a valid point. I didn't even read the paper until a couple minutes ago. I skimmed it and it makes no sense to me at all and I don't see how doublespend is solved and it's unfair of me to criticize the idea at this point. I apologize.

I wont look into timekoin any further, it's either bullshit or genius, no way for me to tell within the time I have for this. (Sidenote: the satoshi paper made perfect sense on first read)

You guys can be early adopters, have fun Grin Grin Grin.

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June 30, 2012, 08:46:05 AM
 #40

It is open-sourced I believe so i'm not sure what you are complaining about. Who cares if he doesn't know what he is talking about. Go find out for yourself how it work and then come report back to all of us on your findings oh great one  Grin Grin Grin

hey smoothie, I just unignored you.

You raise a valid point. I didn't even read the paper until a couple minutes ago. I skimmed it and it makes no sense to me at all and I don't see how doublespend is solved and it's unfair of me to criticize the idea at this point. I apologize.

I wont look into timekoin any further, it's either bullshit or genius, no way for me to tell within the time I have for this. (Sidenote: the satoshi paper made perfect sense on first read)

You guys can be early adopters, have fun Grin Grin Grin.

Thanks mate!  Grin Cheesy Wink Smiley

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