LocalBitcoins is no longer available in Germany ?

[MrWDunne]

Derp.

To start with, there is no money transmitter license in Germany.

Second, according to Germany's interpretation it comes under MiFid.

They potentially (I think not, because jurisdiction) need the licenses required for a 'Multilateral trading facility' which is a step down from a full blown commodities/stock exchange.

But yes, that is why Kraken/Bitcoin.de use Fidor's license. As that covers MiFid.

First of all you are going to need a license from bafin whatever you want to call it,"transmitter or not"  the bafin gives you a license. People that wanted to have ATMs were told they need a license from bafin.

Second of all if you are going to sell bitcoins on a comerical basis in Germany you are going to need the ok from bafin.

The issue -could- be that LBC is registered in finnland, I think. That is in the EU and then they might have to comply with some EU regulation or could be presured by an EU coutnry more than a company not based in the EU.

The issue is Germany interpreted MiFid as covering bitcoin exchanges. Bafin is the regulatory body that is relevant to this, but there is no such thing as a money transmitter. The closest thing to that terminology would be a payment institution which is the relevant law in France + Luxembourg.

That is like saying that the London Stock Exchange is pretty much a remittance company.

But yes, that is the most likely reason, sounds like a lawyer of theirs is a little jumpy because generally speaking its not how EU regs go, but I don't know how much of a difference the fact its P2P bank wise would make.

[DonQuijote]

laws are good for BTC marketing, but the prohibitions are not good... :/

[leopard2]

You can browse German ads but not create new ones.

Methinks they got some stupid court order and have to follow it until the lawyers shoot it down. I hope so.

Otherwise Queen Merkel has gained a little extra power over her peons.

Of course the peons can use any website in the world to list buy and sell ads, welcome to the "Neuland" aka internet.

[whywefight]

You can browse German ads but not create new ones.

Methinks they got some stupid court order and have to follow it until the lawyers shoot it down. I hope so.

Otherwise Queen Merkel has gained a little extra power over her peons.

it seems like i can sell to open ads. got only 0.18€ on lbc atm

EDIT: yeah placing an ad does not work

[krach]

The issue is Germany interpreted MiFid as covering bitcoin exchanges. Bafin is the regulatory body that is relevant to this, but there is no such thing as a money transmitter. The closest thing to that terminology would be a payment institution which is the relevant law in France + Luxembourg.

That is like saying that the London Stock Exchange is pretty much a remittance company.

But yes, that is the most likely reason, sounds like a lawyer of theirs is a little jumpy because generally speaking its not how EU regs go, but I don't know how much of a difference the fact its P2P bank wise would make.

Yes thanks for that friendly explanation.

I bet the lawyer got a letter from...... bafin which is the regulatory body that is relevant to this.

bitcoin.de is p2p and needed the ok from ....... bafin. LBC is lacking this.

[MrWDunne]

The issue is Germany interpreted MiFid as covering bitcoin exchanges. Bafin is the regulatory body that is relevant to this, but there is no such thing as a money transmitter. The closest thing to that terminology would be a payment institution which is the relevant law in France + Luxembourg.

That is like saying that the London Stock Exchange is pretty much a remittance company.

But yes, that is the most likely reason, sounds like a lawyer of theirs is a little jumpy because generally speaking its not how EU regs go, but I don't know how much of a difference the fact its P2P bank wise would make.

Yes thanks for that friendly explanation.

I bet the lawyer got a letter from...... bafin which is the regulatory body that is relevant to this.

bitcoin.de is p2p and needed the ok from ....... bafin. LBC is lacking this.

bitcoin.de is in Germany so subject to their laws, of course MiFid is EU laws but its just Germany's interpretation. I may be missing something but I think they are just scared.

[newIndia]

Where it's based doesnt matter because if they want to operate in a specific country then they need to apply and comply with local laws.

From that angle, they should also close their operation in Bangladesh.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/currency/11097208/Why-Bangladesh-will-jail-Bitcoin-traders.html

[Xch4ng3]

but if you are selling in a commerical manner, repeat sales ect then you need a money transmitter license.

LBC is not a money transmitter though? It's just like a classified site. It's a bit like eBay - shouldn't the onus be on the seller to register and comply with the relevant authorities and regulations?

[krach]

Yes I think they are scared and/or got a letter from bafin.
It will be interesting to see if the offers in the Mycelium wallet will increase or not.

LBC is not a money transmitter though? It's just like a classified site. It's a bit like eBay - shouldn't the onus be on the seller to register and comply with the relevant authorities and regulations?

Well that is what I was saying. Bitcoin.de is not much more than that either yet they are required to comply with regulations.

[pajak666]

probably have sth in common with people using fake euros to buy btc

[johnyj]

This is a new development

The problem with localbitcoins is that criminals are always exploring new ways to utilize it and created lots of complain from victims, when those complains reached police, they will turn to localbitcoins and give them pressure

A typical scam nowadays is to sell goods (which does not exist at all) online and direct the buyer to pay to localbitcoins' bitcoin seller account. And when the seller release the coins, the scammer just run away with coins, leaving the seller facing lots of complain from victims

So eventually those sellers on the platform have to comply with "know your customer" rule and collect ID document from buyers. But I think localbitcoins just do escrow service, thus not directly related to money transfer, should not be regulated

It's a pity that Finland is a country using euro, more affected by the financial regulation rules in euro zone

[malaimult]

-snip-

So eventually those sellers on the platform have to comply with "know your customer" rule and collect ID document from buyers. But I think localbitcoins just do escrow service, thus not directly related to money transfer, should not be regulated

-snip-

I don't think that LBC will ever force their customers to go through KYC/AML verifications with them directly for that exact reason (they are only an escrow service). It has been ruled/determined that someone running an escrow service does not qualify as a money transmitter and will not be regulated as such. The seller of bitcoin on the other hand technically is a money transmitter and should comply with KYC/AML rules, however they rarely do (AFAIK)

[csmcanarney]

But, but, but: for LOCAL trades, and that is what LBC is all about, one would need no Fidor or anything else, because it is perfectly legal to do cash trades for legal goods and services, in Germany.

The limit is 10 000 EUR for businesses but not private counterparties (afaik)

Selling Bitcoins in a commercial manner in Germany requires a licence from the BaFin. Whether payment is received in cash or via bank transfer is not relevant.

I'm not sure where you get the 10,000 € figure from. The only such limit I'm aware of is when entering or leaving Germany: Any cash or cash-equivalents exceeding 10,000 € in value must be declared to customs in that case.

[othe]

Well you an buy/trade Gold up to 14.999,- without identification too; maybe that's the limit he means.

Its specified in the Anti money laundering rules (Geldwäschegesetzt - GwG).

[Elwar]

Hmm, I use localbitcoins here in Germany to get my dollars changed to euros via Bitcoin.

I will look into this more. I still have my sales open, I just sold some coins last night.

[abyrnes81]

German government needs to stop money from getting out, it is needed to save the Euro ...  

Or maybe they are just under pressure because so many Germans have been scammed when stolen bank accounts were used to buy coins? So far LBC has done nothing to prevent that at all.

We will see. If it is about cash trades, it means totalitarian reasons. If it is about SEPA/bank transfers, that would make perfect sense.

What are the alternatives to LBC?

For the moment I don't know another service like localBitcoins , because I just got back here in the forum & I'm an early adopter from 2011 and I would like to know how to sell some bitcoins.

We are in the last phase of testing of our exchange and will launch soon on www.100bit.co.in. Its going to be similar to LocalBitcoins but with more feature. If you are interested, you may like to leave your ID on the site for an early invite...

Thanks , I will contact  you. Now I should restore all my old hard disk....

[C. Bergmann]

It's quiet complicated. I think there are two reasons:

- whoever provides some financial service to german customers needs to be licenced by an EU-country. Finnland is member of the EU but has no regulatory policy for bitcoin, so no regulation, no licence.

- in an oversight the bafin (german body of financial regulation) told that people are free to trade bitcoins privately. But people that register in a list of local sellers could need a licence. In the past it sometimes happened that german sellers of bitcoins did run into trouble with the bafin. Maybe this is the major reason.

 

[FeedbackLoop]

This is a new development

The problem with localbitcoins is that criminals are always exploring new ways to utilize it and created lots of complain from victims, when those complains reached police, they will turn to localbitcoins and give them pressure

A typical scam nowadays is to sell goods (which does not exist at all) online and direct the buyer to pay to localbitcoins' bitcoin seller account. And when the seller release the coins, the scammer just run away with coins, leaving the seller facing lots of complain from victims

So eventually those sellers on the platform have to comply with "know your customer" rule and collect ID document from buyers. But I think localbitcoins just do escrow service, thus not directly related to money transfer, should not be regulated

It's a pity that Finland is a country using euro, more affected by the financial regulation rules in euro zone

^^^
This!!

It would help a lot if localbitcoins wouldn't remove negative feedback from well known scammers.

One of their largest traders had quite a few people angry in the Spanish sub-forum from tricks he pulled at localbitcoins (taking just a slice for the golden goose won't kill it right?). His localbitcoins score would fluctuate from 100% to 98% and back to 100% for some inexplicable reason, multiple times. It is a guy who walked away with a few hundred bitcoin from BTCJam (some mine), and got banned from bitcointalk for his epic antics.

You can find people in the scammer accusation forum and the spanish sub-forum going to the police with everything they have on that guy which is understandable. It is a matter of time for stuff like that to build up at some police entity, with "localbitcoins" appearing repeatedly in print until getting forwarded to some financial regulator.

Now I don't know german or the german sub-forum but I wouldn't be surprised if there were more than a few germans scammed and filling complaints with "localbitcoins" named out of frustration.  

[ticoti]

does someone know the legal reason supporting this?
it sounds quite strange

[Elwar]

It was likely the online transfers that caused the most problems. SEPA transfers for bitcoins, I never understood how this could be done without abuse so I stayed away.

Cash exchange is very difficult to scam. Though I made sure to read up on testing for counterfeit bills first.