BitCoin vs Visa as an investment

[Possum577]

The wording that model can evolve is simply put an alternative to SWIFT using blockchain technology
They won't need as many checks and ledgers and it streamlines the process at a fraction of the cost, money transferring is an old and successful model but the ways we transfer units of value does adapt and change over time, consider the original model of giving money to a bank and having a guardsman protecting the safe at the bank, then the transition to chequing accounts and cheques people used instead of cash, which was then steadily replaced with the use of Visas and the use of the SWIFT network to transfer assets.
Simply put the way we process transactions does change and EVOLVE over time.

The next transition would be to one where communications are secured through a ledger like Bitcoin, with very little margin of error as it communicates with the network, and the ability to perform more advanced contracts with sidechains and 2.0 technology.

Bitcoin is tested and utilized enough that it or a variant will be used in commerce in the future simply because the Blockchain itself is an innovation, the dividends I mentioned were indirect (If you aren't aware of Clam coins then look it up), not directly a Bitcoin dividend but the way it was distributed and the way you claim them kind of are, all you needed was a Bitcoin address in May claim the clams then sell them lol. (Effective dividend haha)

In the future sidechains could do similar things and its worth consideration.

Well, thanks for the education on the evolution of BTC transaction technology. I certainly agree that the transactions can evolve. I agree that they must to meeting changing technology and the needs of consumers.

I still think Visa is a better investment today than BTC. What makes ppl think Visa couldn't adopt their transaction service model to embrace BTC as an emerging currency?

It's concerning that some people compare the investment in BTC to the investment in shares of a company and the two are very, very different.

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[exoton]

The wording that model can evolve is simply put an alternative to SWIFT using blockchain technology
They won't need as many checks and ledgers and it streamlines the process at a fraction of the cost, money transferring is an old and successful model but the ways we transfer units of value does adapt and change over time, consider the original model of giving money to a bank and having a guardsman protecting the safe at the bank, then the transition to chequing accounts and cheques people used instead of cash, which was then steadily replaced with the use of Visas and the use of the SWIFT network to transfer assets.
Simply put the way we process transactions does change and EVOLVE over time.

The next transition would be to one where communications are secured through a ledger like Bitcoin, with very little margin of error as it communicates with the network, and the ability to perform more advanced contracts with sidechains and 2.0 technology.

Bitcoin is tested and utilized enough that it or a variant will be used in commerce in the future simply because the Blockchain itself is an innovation, the dividends I mentioned were indirect (If you aren't aware of Clam coins then look it up), not directly a Bitcoin dividend but the way it was distributed and the way you claim them kind of are, all you needed was a Bitcoin address in May claim the clams then sell them lol. (Effective dividend haha)

In the future sidechains could do similar things and its worth consideration.

Well, thanks for the education on the evolution of BTC transaction technology. I certainly agree that the transactions can evolve. I agree that they must to meeting changing technology and the needs of consumers.

I still think Visa is a better investment today than BTC. What makes ppl think Visa couldn't adopt their transaction service model to embrace BTC as an emerging currency?

It's concerning that some people compare the investment in BTC to the investment in shares of a company and the two are very, very different.

Investing in bitcoin or investing in visa stock are two different investments with very different risk/return profiles. Visa has a huge advantage as it delivers current income to it's shareholders, to the point that shareholders are guaranteed to not lose their entire investment and would not be a complete disaster as long as visa does not fail in the short to medium term

[jacktheking]

I would say Bitcoin is better. It have a 'brighter' future than Visa. Although, for now.. Visa is 'brighter' than Bitcoin. Well, let's see.

[Plutonium]

Bitcoin has so much room for growth, the sky is the limit.

Visa is nearly at it's full potential, what can they do different from what they already do? Not much.

From an investor point of view, I will without a doubt choose to have Bitcoin as long term investment.

The only benefit you'll receive from Visa is an established, inclined growth over a very long period of time (assuming the life of the business is infinite as you should when investing)
Bitcoin on the other hand does not have guaranteed growth, but in the very likely chance it will grow, you'll receive a massive return.

Bitcoin does have lots of room to grow and the sky truly is the limit, we are all still early adopters

[bitgobit]

bitcoin and visa stock are completely different as investments. bitcion high risk chance to very high return, visa not high risk and not high return as it reached most of its potential

[exoton]

Bitcoin has so much room for growth, the sky is the limit.

Visa is nearly at it's full potential, what can they do different from what they already do? Not much.

From an investor point of view, I will without a doubt choose to have Bitcoin as long term investment.

The only benefit you'll receive from Visa is an established, inclined growth over a very long period of time (assuming the life of the business is infinite as you should when investing)
Bitcoin on the other hand does not have guaranteed growth, but in the very likely chance it will grow, you'll receive a massive return.

Bitcoin does have lots of room to grow and the sky truly is the limit, we are all still early adopters

You also get the benefit of receiving dividend income from owning visa stock, while you would likely need to spend some amount of money to keep your bitcoin investment secure

[panju1]

You also get the benefit of receiving dividend income from owning visa stock, while you would likely need to spend some amount of money to keep your bitcoin investment secure

From a pure finance point of view, you will have to look at both dividend receipt and capital appreciation to get the total return.
Return on capital is how you should judge which investment has fared better.

Usually, if 2 companies have the same RoE, the Company with lower dividend payouts would be more tax efficient. In most jurisdictions, long term capital gains attracts lower tax than dividends.

[cryptoforcause]

Bitcoin has a better chance for growth as compared to visa as an investment.
Visa is nearly at it's full potential.
Bitcoin doesn't ends over the time.

[FallenGods]

The main advantage of investing VISA stock is safe and continually receiving dividends but the fact that Bitcoin offers soo much for growth cannot be neglected.
So, according to me both Bitcoin and Visa are a good way of investment.

[orsotheysaid]

Visa not an investment. Visa wil dissapear eventually when transaction volume gets crushed by Bitcoin transaction volume. Visa is just a tool to move fiat.

[exoton]

You also get the benefit of receiving dividend income from owning visa stock, while you would likely need to spend some amount of money to keep your bitcoin investment secure

From a pure finance point of view, you will have to look at both dividend receipt and capital appreciation to get the total return.
Return on capital is how you should judge which investment has fared better.

Usually, if 2 companies have the same RoE, the Company with lower dividend payouts would be more tax efficient. In most jurisdictions, long term capital gains attracts lower tax than dividends.

That is true. However dividends are money now while capital appreciation is potential money in the future. There are risks that both investments could eventually go to zero, but with dividends you would not lose everything

[WhatsBitcoin]

This one is tough. Visa protects consumers with chargeback but that same issue is what drew people to bitcoin. A sense of people being more tired of PayPal and other ewallet bullshit is why I think a lot joined the bitcoin "club".

Honestly, ApplePay is currently making a huge dent for bitcoin growth and development IMO.

[panju1]

You also get the benefit of receiving dividend income from owning visa stock, while you would likely need to spend some amount of money to keep your bitcoin investment secure

From a pure finance point of view, you will have to look at both dividend receipt and capital appreciation to get the total return.
Return on capital is how you should judge which investment has fared better.

Usually, if 2 companies have the same RoE, the Company with lower dividend payouts would be more tax efficient. In most jurisdictions, long term capital gains attracts lower tax than dividends.

That is true. However dividends are money now while capital appreciation is potential money in the future. There are risks that both investments could eventually go to zero, but with dividends you would not lose everything

You can mimic dividend payments even when an asset has only capital appreciation. Regularly sell small amounts of your assets (percentage equal to dividend yield that you want). The rest of the asset appreciates. So that way, you have 'money now' as well as potential gain (albeit lower than what you would get if you held the entire asset) in the future.

The downside is people lack the discipline to systematically sell. It is easier for them when the company gives regular dividends.

[exoton]

You also get the benefit of receiving dividend income from owning visa stock, while you would likely need to spend some amount of money to keep your bitcoin investment secure

From a pure finance point of view, you will have to look at both dividend receipt and capital appreciation to get the total return.
Return on capital is how you should judge which investment has fared better.

Usually, if 2 companies have the same RoE, the Company with lower dividend payouts would be more tax efficient. In most jurisdictions, long term capital gains attracts lower tax than dividends.

That is true. However dividends are money now while capital appreciation is potential money in the future. There are risks that both investments could eventually go to zero, but with dividends you would not lose everything

You can mimic dividend payments even when an asset has only capital appreciation. Regularly sell small amounts of your assets (percentage equal to dividend yield that you want). The rest of the asset appreciates. So that way, you have 'money now' as well as potential gain (albeit lower than what you would get if you held the entire asset) in the future.

The downside is people lack the discipline to systematically sell. It is easier for them when the company gives regular dividends.

This would only work when the price increase is steady and constant. There is no investment that has a stable enough of a capital return investment for this to work. With a dividend payment you will receive funds regardless of where the price of the investment has gone recently, however with your strategy, you can only sell a small portion of your holdings when the price has appreciated recently.

[Triffin]

My initial enthusiasm for the potential of BitCoin became tempered when
I realized that the proliferation of altcoins ( of dubious utility ) ment that there
was absolutely no barrier to entry in this space ( blockchain based transaction networks )..
Additionally, the fact that the software ( or nearly everything ) is open sourced tells me that
any reasonably funded entity can co-opt this technology ( including Visa, MasterCard etc )
for their own purposes at any time if/when blockchain technology becomes ubiquitous or proves
superior ( cost ) to the existing transaction networks ..

BitCoin may carve a niche for itself as a digital store of value ( digital gold ?? ) or as
a trading vehicle ( due to volatility ) or as an alternative currency ..

  

Thanks for all the responses so far to this thread ..

Here's the current Market Caps for publically traded transaction networks ..

Visa  ( V )                          164 Billion
MasterCard ( MA )              100 Billion
American Express ( AXP )     96 Billion
Discover ( DFS )                  30 Billion
Ebay/PayPal ( EBAY )           71 Billion
        

V/MA/AXP/DFS all have current yields of between 0.75-1.5% annually and
all currently raise their dividends to shareholders on at least an annual basis ..

V and MA's revenue model is very low risk in that it's all fee based ..
While AXP and DFS actually lend to their cardholders and therefore have
some default risk that V and MA don't ..    

BTC @ $327.00 has a current market cap of 4.5 Billion and 6.86 Billion fully diluted
XRP @ $0.023 has a current market cap of 730 Million and 2.1 Billion fully diluted

( I added XRP to the discussion since it's currently in the #2 market cap position for crypto )

Due to the decentralized nature of crypto, I'm not sure how we assign appropriate "value"
vs the value of the corporately owned transaction networks ..

Ultimately, long term value in BTC may come more from it's "currency"
characteristics than from the blockchain/network ..

Triff ..

[panju1]

You can mimic dividend payments even when an asset has only capital appreciation. Regularly sell small amounts of your assets (percentage equal to dividend yield that you want). The rest of the asset appreciates. So that way, you have 'money now' as well as potential gain (albeit lower than what you would get if you held the entire asset) in the future.

The downside is people lack the discipline to systematically sell. It is easier for them when the company gives regular dividends.

This would only work when the price increase is steady and constant. There is no investment that has a stable enough of a capital return investment for this to work. With a dividend payment you will receive funds regardless of where the price of the investment has gone recently, however with your strategy, you can only sell a small portion of your holdings when the price has appreciated recently.

It doesn't matter how the price increases/decreases. You can implement this strategy (ie sell 2 or 3% of the asset) irrespective of price movements. You can have price decreases even in the case of a dividend paying stock, can't you? In a falling price environment, this strategy would resemble that.

[hashman]

So you think you own visa stock.  Care to prove it with a signed message I can verify on a public network? 

What you really own is counterparty risk with a bucket shop.  Get out while you still can. 

[Gianluca95]

What are the pros/cons of making an equivalent long term investment in both BitCoin and Visa stock ??
Am I wrong to think that they are essentially equivalent ( both are low cost transaction networks )
other than the fact that Visa pays a small but growing dividend ??


Triff ..

You have  a great possibility to earn a lot of money if you invest in Bitcoin and at the same time you can lose much money with this because market is many speculative. If you buy VISA stock you can't earn like bitcoin but (at the same time) you can't lose like Bitcoin . VISA actually is at the full potential, process around 500 Million - 1 billion of transaction for day, Bitcoin have many many way to do for reach VISA numbers, because actually Bitcoin can only process 7 transaction for second (or 605.000 transaction for day).

[panju1]

Of course Bitcoin.
Visa is great investment, but it's potential almost reach limit.
While bitcoin still have a lot potential even there are much risk.

I guess the axiom of higher risk, higher expected return holds good in all cases.
Bitcoin certainly does have higher potential.

[Triffin]

My initial enthusiasm for the potential of BitCoin became tempered when
I realized that the proliferation of altcoins ( of dubious utility ) ment that there
was absolutely no barrier to entry in this space ( blockchain based transaction networks )..
Additionally, the fact that the software ( or nearly everything ) is open sourced tells me that
any reasonably funded entity can co-opt this technology ( including Visa, MasterCard etc )
for their own purposes at any time if/when blockchain technology becomes ubiquitous or proves
superior ( cost ) to the existing transaction networks ..

BitCoin may carve a niche for itself as a digital store of value ( digital gold ?? ) or as
a trading vehicle ( due to volatility ) or as an alternative currency ..

  

Thanks for all the responses so far to this thread ..

Here's the current Market Caps for publically traded transaction networks ..

Visa  ( V )                          164 Billion
MasterCard ( MA )              100 Billion
American Express ( AXP )     96 Billion
Discover ( DFS )                  30 Billion
Ebay/PayPal ( EBAY )           71 Billion
        

V/MA/AXP/DFS all have current yields of between 0.75-1.5% annually and
all currently raise their dividends to shareholders on at least an annual basis ..

V and MA's revenue model is very low risk in that it's all fee based ..
While AXP and DFS actually lend to their cardholders and therefore have
some default risk that V and MA don't ..    

BTC @ $327.00 has a current market cap of 4.5 Billion and 6.86 Billion fully diluted
XRP @ $0.023 has a current market cap of 730 Million and 2.1 Billion fully diluted

( I added XRP to the discussion since it's currently in the #2 market cap position for crypto )

Due to the decentralized nature of crypto, I'm not sure how we assign appropriate "value"
vs the value of the corporately owned transaction networks ..

Ultimately, long term value in BTC may come more from it's "currency"
characteristics than from the blockchain/network ..

Triff ..

That didn't take long ..

On Dec 20th ..

V @ 261
BTC @ 327

Today

V @ 265
BTC @ 230

Triff ..

PS ..

Read the OP on this thread ..
Valid reasoning IMHO ..

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=923411.0;topicseen