[RENAMED] 800 amp, ~300kW, <$0.03/kwh, warehouse for $3,000 a month

[Bananana]

The space could work but I would not run the refrigeration unit, this will raise the humidity in the air and your electronics will not like that.   Using it though as a quality insulated room and getting some other from of cooling piped in could work well.   It is surprising that no 480v volt is in the building with all those compressors and motors. 


-D

I though refrigerator unit take away humidity like air-conditioner? What makes you think it raise the humidity?

[Dalkore]

The temps that refrigeration operate at usually are at a level where you see condensation or icing.  When you get below the dew point, you will see this effect.  Even with de-humidifcation, it will not be fast enough not to potentially hard your electronics.   Try this, get a humidity meter and set the frig to the operating temp you want to run it at and take some readings.  Next step would be to add some load in there and run it for 3-4 days and see what builds up on the unit before committing to building it out.   

What you could do if you find it doesn't work, is use the existing ducting and to that attached your cooling equipment and still use the room and any electrical outlets it may be wired for. 

Does that explain my thinking on this a little more?   We actually looked at a frig unit as a space way back when and this was a concern for us.

-D

[yuriygeorge]

It doesn't look like they want to negotiate the price lower at this time. They just recently put it on the market and they'd rather wait and see who bites on it at the old rent price. The other tenant paid $3k, so they think they'll be able to find someone. I either gamble and hope they'll accept my $2700 offer 2-3 weeks from now, or lose it to someone else who'll take it for $3,000. I don't want to risk losing this spot since it's been pretty dry with those power rates and electricity already built in without needing improvements. Thinking about going with the $3k asking price, but before I commit, I'd like to first try gauging how much capital I'd need for infrastructure equipment. Any thoughts? I'm trying for as economic as possible, and smracer has been kind to give some pointers regarding whips, for example. I'd appreciate any more advice & tips!

How much should I estimate for initial capital for equipment? Best case scenario, average, and worst case? Respectively, I'm thinking $10k, $25k, $50k.

Capacity: 800 amps, 208v, 3-phase, ~277 kW. 100-300 machines

Security deposit: $6k
Cheap/Ghetto Racks: ? (Home Depot? Where's a good spot and how much)
Whips: ~30 30Amp whips at $50 each, $1,500
Additional Cords/Wiring: ~$750
Misc. Wiring Electrical Costs: ~$2,000?
Used Industrial-size fans (2x): ~$600??
Vents: $600

What about HVAC>> How much would that run me.

So, I want to say $10,000 if everything goes smooth, $25,000, more likely scenario, but hopefully no more than $50,000, at worst case scenario? Anyone have any approximations? Thanks again!

[Jamphone]

I've spent two years learning all of this. Hostin', much like pimpin', ain't easy.

Good luck. I don't think anyone's going to divulge trade secrets.

[yuriygeorge]

I've spent two years learning all of this. Hostin', much like pimpin', ain't easy.

Good luck. I don't think anyone's going to divulge trade secrets.

That wasn't very helpful, but thanks.

[DebitMe]

I am a little unclear in what you are actually trying to do...

I see you are debating about buying a warehouse, but are you only going to run your miners there or are you planning to host miners for other people?

You have made a post about potentially looking for investors, but to be honest, without a little more information you won't find anyone willing.  I am not saying post the address of the warehouse, but at least give a state that it is in, as people will not be interested in investing without of course going to the place and meeting you, and spending a couple hundred plus dollars per flight for a small operation probably isn't that enticing to most.

If you are planning to host for others, my recommendation would be to pair with a pretty trusted individual, that is probably the best security you can do for the site as more people will be willing to send their units to you without needing to know specifics about location and whatnot.

Just my general input, good luck with your endevour though.

[Jamphone]

I just meant that you're asking some very technical questions and not offering people anything in return.

"Please come design my data centre for free."

And I'm telling you that anyone who knows the answers to those questions isn't going to post them for free on bitcointalk. Might as well just give our businesses away.

If you don't know the answers to a lot of those questions, don't go dropping the kind of money you're talking about. I've been hosting for two years. Jumping into that kind of a set up will be tough, there is a lot to know.

And you budget is way, way too low. Wait until you start pricing out the electrical work you need and the infrastructure you'll need to have in place.

[yuriygeorge]

I haven't yet started looking for investors, and am only in the gathering information stage (hence speculation). Also, for a size this small, I may be able to fund all of this myself, incrementally. For example, I may not need to worry about installing HVAC until summer approaches and can shoulder off those costs until later. Keep in mind, this is just barely a .3 MW operation. ASICSPACE has ~5MW (I think), Toom.Im has ~1M, so I don't consider this a mega large operation. If and when I get to the point to commit and start up a legitimate business and/or seek investors/customers, I'll have a company profile, my information, my identity, my linkedIn profile, etc, and don't have any hang up in revealing this. It's too soon for that as currently I'm just seeking information to determine if this will be profitable and how long would it take to recoup my initial investment if I pursued this. I estimated that after rent, electricity, insurance costs, I should take in just about ~$4-5,000 barely, (tbh, much less than I would take in at my previous software engineering jobs, but I seek the thrill of entrepreneurship and learning experience). I'm only wondering how much I should estimate for initial capital to invest into racks, fans, electrical wiring, etc, to determine how long it would take to break even on my original investment. I'm estimating in the best case scenario I'd need $10-25k. Hopefully it doesn't go over $50k, as that would make things very difficult for me. Is this reasonable? Thanks!

Jamphone- you'd be surprised, not everyone wants to close off knowledge away. I'm following an "open" business model here where I reveal almost everything up front, the rent, the electricity cost, etc. If people want to participate with me on this, that's their choice, and in the end if this succeeds, they may have the benefit to access early-promotion hosting discounts. There are a lot of examples on this forum of people helping people, being open. Indeed, it seems some of the most respected members on here are those that are open to sharing knowledge. And, in general, Bitcoin itself is premised on an open-source model. Anyways, I digress. Of course there's always a threshold that people are not willing to cross in terms of revealing information, and I respect everyone's boundaries and appreciate whatever help I can get. Again, seeing that this is a <0.5 MW operation, I don't think this is rocket science, and expect to learn a lot along the way. Again, if I was shooting for a 1-5MW operation, I'd be a fool, but I think for 277 kW, it may be a neat experiment. I've already received a good amount of help via private messages, so not everyone is as closed off as you portray. Also, I tip for those that help, showing my appreciation and that I don't take it for granted.

[Jamphone]

I highly doubt you've received any decent information because I see two critical errors in your plan that no one has pointed out. Really bold ones. So I'm surprised to hear you're getting so much help.

Anyway, I love finding new business partners. PM me your phone number if you are serious about this project. I can offer you cheaper hosting than you can provide yourself.

[DebitMe]

Ahh ok, don't forget about backup generators and fuel in case the power goes down, as well as backup and sometimes even backup of backup of the internet connection.

[yuriygeorge]

No way, I don't think I would be investing in back up generators, at least not for a long time. They are more important in critical hosting environments, such as high frequency trading for example. For bitcoin mining, if it goes down, then it would be rare, <24 hours at a time, maybe every other month or something. Plus, I think the location brags high uptime and low power outages, but maybe that's what they all say. My friend has hosted with Toom.IM for example and I think they had a power outage one time in a 3-4 month period and they were only down for a couple hours. Not worth the investment in my opinion. I don't think any of the bitcoin hosting competitors who offer <$100 per kW pricing are investing in back up generators, but maybe ASICSPACE or toom.im or HashPlex can chime in.

Back-up internet connection may be more dooable, sure. It's true we didn't even cover internet connection, but these days I take Internet for granted so I'm going to guess that's not going to be a significant expense in relation to rent + electricity. Correct me if I'm wrong, I should probably look into this, too.

I think Jamphone is probably referring to Cooling. Nobody really talked about cooling much, but this warehouse is in an environment high north in latitude, so it's winters most of the time with a modest summer. Also, these aren't high-end servers/computers, but bitcoin miners. I think they can operate in less-than-typical "data-center" friendly environments. This isn't Texas or California, even though some have been able to host there as well.  Some have suggested that I may be able to do away with HVAC completely, or at a very bare minimum as long as I set up the racks properly and have smart ventilation. Are they bsing me? I don't think so, but maybe.

[padrino]

Like some others that may bounce around I won't put too much on the table publicly as this is one of the aspects of my consulting business (mining design, deployments, etc.) but I will say you need to work out the labor for the electrical, and work the details on cooling although you may very well be onto something.. Even in CO I have some places that only have chillers running for a few months out of the year, if you are further north you can mimic some of the larger mining operations but you need to understand the thermals and design the right hot/cold setup..

[yuriygeorge]

I decided not to go with this deal as they weren't very flexible about a termination clause in case things go sour. And, they were charging $10 a sq ft, and about $10/kw of capacity. I'm going to wait on another new construction in a different location that supposedly will go live this summer that they quoted me would be almost 10 times cheaper - $1.6/sq ft and $1.7/kW of capacity, could do 0.5 MW at 5k sq ft or 1.0 MW at 10k sq ft. Thanks for chiming in all.

[graymatter]

good luck, main cost will be in wiring / cooling infrastructure.

I'm guessing you're around Morman Lake in middle Washington for the .03c per kw price point.

One thing to consider is can you add additional service to your address (additional power) - call the power company and check time, and pricing (easy way to take a 5k square foot warehouse) and make it handle 1mw+ of power

Second, consider your wet bulb, Washington state (west of cascades) is high, out east, relative humidity is low.  You can get away with evaporate cooling easy enough and cheaply.

Third, if mining goes south, whats another high yield / power hungry industry in your state (Washington) that is now legal? With all the circuits, power and the cooling, consider splitting the investment between bitcoin mining and a growing operation.  This might possibly be the best way to guarantee the FBI would kick down your door, but hey, you would be doing everything legally!

[aDude]

I think Jamphone is probably referring to Cooling. Nobody really talked about cooling much, but this warehouse is in an environment high north in latitude, so it's winters most of the time with a modest summer. Also, these aren't high-end servers/computers, but bitcoin miners. I think they can operate in less-than-typical "data-center" friendly environments. This isn't Texas or California, even though some have been able to host there as well.  Some have suggested that I may be able to do away with HVAC completely, or at a very bare minimum as long as I set up the racks properly and have smart ventilation. Are they bsing me? I don't think so, but maybe.

Having lived in Wenatchee most of my life(where this building in question is located), i can tell you that it gets hotter here in the summer then it does in LA. despite being fairly far north, we are a high desert region and frequently spend weeks in the summer with daily highs of 100+. There is no way you would be able to operate 24/7 from mid/late may to about October without some kind of cooling. I would even question the viability of running at night, as our nightly lows can stay 70+ for weeks as well.

[pak13]

I think Jamphone is probably referring to Cooling. Nobody really talked about cooling much, but this warehouse is in an environment high north in latitude, so it's winters most of the time with a modest summer. Also, these aren't high-end servers/computers, but bitcoin miners. I think they can operate in less-than-typical "data-center" friendly environments. This isn't Texas or California, even though some have been able to host there as well.  Some have suggested that I may be able to do away with HVAC completely, or at a very bare minimum as long as I set up the racks properly and have smart ventilation. Are they bsing me? I don't think so, but maybe.

Having lived in Wenatchee most of my life(where this building in question is located), i can tell you that it gets hotter here in the summer then it does in LA. despite being fairly far north, we are a high desert region and frequently spend weeks in the summer with daily highs of 100+. There is no way you would be able to operate 24/7 from mid/late may to about October without some kind of cooling. I would even question the viability of running at night, as our nightly lows can stay 70+ for weeks as well.

I can confirm the above. You need at least evap (cross building) cooling or miners and surroundings that will tolerate that heat.

[aDude]

good luck, main cost will be in wiring / cooling infrastructure.

I'm guessing you're around Morman Lake in middle Washington for the .03c per kw price point.

One thing to consider is can you add additional service to your address (additional power) - call the power company and check time, and pricing (easy way to take a 5k square foot warehouse) and make it handle 1mw+ of power

Second, consider your wet bulb, Washington state (west of cascades) is high, out east, relative humidity is low.  You can get away with evaporate cooling easy enough and cheaply.

Third, if mining goes south, whats another high yield / power hungry industry in your state (Washington) that is now legal? With all the circuits, power and the cooling, consider splitting the investment between bitcoin mining and a growing operation.  This might possibly be the best way to guarantee the FBI would kick down your door, but hey, you would be doing everything legally!

Good thoughts on this one.... except there is currently a moratorium on upgrades in excess of 1MW here, so upgrades aren't as easy as one might think. Even if you can get them approved, upgrades still cost tens of thousands of dollars, unless you happen to have a big building right next to an existing power sub-station. That's not to say there aren't locations that already have over a MW. For instance, the ASICSPACE facility up in Cashmere, they lucked out as TreeTop already had that much draw to the location from decades ago. Morman Lake is in Arizona, wrong state. Growing pot, if mining were to go south is not exactly easy, the application process is closed, so you would have to buy an existing license, which are going for $40-350k depending on how much growing square footage was requested on the original application and your building would need to meet a list of about 20 state requirements.

[aDude]

strangely enough, the pot growers, coupled with the bitcoin miners all trying to move into the area are the reason we have the power upgrade moratorium.

it *sounds* like they had a lot of looky-lews that were requesting power studies for buildings with insufficient power to them. after finding out the cost to get a MW of 480 is six figures and change, most of them backed out... thus the power company is tired of wasting its time doing power studies for people that have no realistic idea of how much the price tag was going to be. i know one pot grower that is looking for 144,000 watts of 120v. thats 1200 amps for lighting alone... he is gonna need another 4-800 for ACs, water pumps, etc.

[Dalkore]

strangely enough, the pot growers, coupled with the bitcoin miners all trying to move into the area are the reason we have the power upgrade moratorium.

it *sounds* like they had a lot of looky-lews that were requesting power studies for buildings with insufficient power to them. after finding out the cost to get a MW of 480 is six figures and change, most of them backed out... thus the power company is tired of wasting its time doing power studies for people that have no realistic idea of how much the price tag was going to be. i know one pot grower that is looking for 144,000 watts of 120v. thats 1200 amps for lighting alone... he is gonna need another 4-800 for ACs, water pumps, etc.

This is exactly what has happened.   The PUD I am working with change the 2015 pricing to basically double the build-out cost for high-voltage commercial power projects because of all the tire-kickers.   We were lucky enough to secure our power in 2014 when it was cheaper.   

Currently we have room for some investment capital to build-out out multi-MW facility.  We have a 5,000 sqft. building with a very long-term lease.   If anyone is serious and want a serious plan and financials, please contact me directly via PM. 

-D

[graymatter]

good luck, main cost will be in wiring / cooling infrastructure.

I'm guessing you're around Morman Lake in middle Washington for the .03c per kw price point.

One thing to consider is can you add additional service to your address (additional power) - call the power company and check time, and pricing (easy way to take a 5k square foot warehouse) and make it handle 1mw+ of power

Second, consider your wet bulb, Washington state (west of cascades) is high, out east, relative humidity is low.  You can get away with evaporate cooling easy enough and cheaply.

Third, if mining goes south, whats another high yield / power hungry industry in your state (Washington) that is now legal? With all the circuits, power and the cooling, consider splitting the investment between bitcoin mining and a growing operation.  This might possibly be the best way to guarantee the FBI would kick down your door, but hey, you would be doing everything legally!

Good thoughts on this one.... except there is currently a moratorium on upgrades in excess of 1MW here, so upgrades aren't as easy as one might think. Even if you can get them approved, upgrades still cost tens of thousands of dollars, unless you happen to have a big building right next to an existing power sub-station. That's not to say there aren't locations that already have over a MW. For instance, the ASICSPACE facility up in Cashmere, they lucked out as TreeTop already had that much draw to the location from decades ago. Morman Lake is in Arizona, wrong state. Growing pot, if mining were to go south is not exactly easy, the application process is closed, so you would have to buy an existing license, which are going for $40-350k depending on how much growing square footage was requested on the original application and your building would need to meet a list of about 20 state requirements.

Sorry meant to say Moses lake