Brain wallet

[lewren]

Hi all

So, I just tried to re-create a brain wallet that I generated on bitaddress.org in Electrum, although found out after I did this that they do not use the same code for generating private key. Perhaps this has already been suggested, but the possibility to import brain wallets would be nice.

[Abdussamad]

Electrum itself can be used for a secure brain wallet. All private keys in an electrum wallet are derived from a seed which can be represented as a 12 word mnemonic. This is a truly random phrase and more secure than a human generated brain wallet.

[lewren]

But does it not defeat the purpose of the brain wallet a bit? Randomness is good, but the sequence of words generated is not that easy to remember since they have no meaning to them. Poems, quotations or even a couple of lines from a book at a specific page/line would be easier to keep in mind as they can be related to. Even if the line was modified with numbers and chars that are not in the original text.

[Abdussamad]

But does it not defeat the purpose of the brain wallet a bit? Randomness is good, but the sequence of words generated is not that easy to remember since they have no meaning to them. Poems, quotations or even a couple of lines from a book at a specific page/line would be easier to keep in mind as they can be related to. Even if the line was modified with numbers and chars that are not in the original text.

It's not difficult to memorize an electrum seed. The key is repetition:

1. Restore the wallet by manually entering the seed.
2. Delete wallet
3. Repeat until you have the seed down pat.

Repeatedly typing in the wallet seed makes it easy to memorize. You also want to test your memory by doing a restore a few days after the original session. If you can still remember the seed and successfully restore the wallet then its time to send some coins to one of the wallet addresses. You can then gradually increase the amount until you are certain you will never forget the seed.

[lewren]

Hm, what you are suggesting sound kind of like when you have to study for a test the day before.
So lets say you can remember the seed, but for how long? Personally, am very certain I would not remember the seed 2 years later if the wallet was just kept in storage and not used. Perhaps Electrum is just for users that have a very good memory of random things

[picolo]

But does it not defeat the purpose of the brain wallet a bit? Randomness is good, but the sequence of words generated is not that easy to remember since they have no meaning to them. Poems, quotations or even a couple of lines from a book at a specific page/line would be easier to keep in mind as they can be related to. Even if the line was modified with numbers and chars that are not in the original text.

It's not difficult to memorize an electrum seed. The key is repetition:

1. Restore the wallet by manually entering the seed.
2. Delete wallet
3. Repeat until you have the seed down pat.

Repeatedly typing in the wallet seed makes it easy to memorize. You also want to test your memory by doing a restore a few days after the original session. If you can still remember the seed and successfully restore the wallet then its time to send some coins to one of the wallet addresses. You can then gradually increase the amount until you are certain you will never forget the seed.

Good advice. Some even succeed to remember a private key through repetition.

[lewren]

Good advice. Some even succeed to remember a private key through repetition.

Yes, I am sure 'Some' can. Although this technique is not for everyone.

[Abdussamad]

Hm, what you are suggesting sound kind of like when you have to study for a test the day before.
So lets say you can remember the seed, but for how long? Personally, am very certain I would not remember the seed 2 years later if the wallet was just kept in storage and not used. Perhaps Electrum is just for users that have a very good memory of random things

The only "storage" for a brain wallet is your memory. That is the entire idea behind it. If you want to be able to recall it years later you make sure you practice restoring the wallet on a regular basis like say once every 2 weeks or so. That way you'll never forget.

If you don't feel you can remember it then it is better to write down the seed on a piece of paper.

Note that human generated brain wallet phrases are a bad idea. See what gmaxwell one of the developers of bitcoin core has to say about them:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=311000.msg3345309#msg3345309

[jonald_fyookball]

personally I find it easy to memorize an electrum seed.  first, I suggest you seriously take a look at your beliefs around human memory... the human mind is capable of memorizing entire books.

you are correct that the random order makes it harder.

my next suggestion: break up the 12 words into 6 phrase of two words each...then paint a mental picture of each phrase, and link each scene together.

for example,let's say your seed is "constant forest adore false green weave stop guy fur freeze giggle clock"

now let's break that into:

1. constant forest
2. adore false
3. green weave
4. stop guy
5. fur freeze
6. giggle clock

for this, I'm going to imagine an "enchanted forest" type scene, where it is the same
all year round (constant).

so far I have "constant forest".

in this forest lives a beautiful queen who is really an evil witch,
she is adored, but her appearance is false of who she is really is...

"adore false".

she wears a green woven sweater.

"green weave"

one day a traveller is going through the forest,
and she encounters and stops him on the path.

"stop guy"

the guy is wearing a fur coat but the queen
freezes him with a magic spell and there
are now icicles dripping from his frozen
brown fur coat.

"fur freeze".

meanwhile a magic clock who lives
in the forest is laughing at the guy
who just got frozen.

"giggle clock".

now you can see how I took a group
of 12 random words and made some
mental constructs that made it much
easier to remember...if you use
repetition on this, and focus
on the links between the 6 phrases,
it becomes hard to forget the seed.

[lewren]

Hm, what you are suggesting sound kind of like when you have to study for a test the day before.
So lets say you can remember the seed, but for how long? Personally, am very certain I would not remember the seed 2 years later if the wallet was just kept in storage and not used. Perhaps Electrum is just for users that have a very good memory of random things

The only "storage" for a brain wallet is your memory. That is the entire idea behind it. If you want to be able to recall it years later you make sure you practice restoring the wallet on a regular basis like say once every 2 weeks or so. That way you'll never forget.

If you don't feel you can remember it then it is better to write down the seed on a piece of paper.

Note that human generated brain wallet phrases are a bad idea. See what gmaxwell one of the developers of bitcoin core has to say about them:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=311000.msg3345309#msg3345309

Had no idea it would make it so much weaker, but all right then. You have proven your point

[lewren]

personally I find it easy to memorize an electrum seed.  first, I suggest you seriously take a look at your beliefs around human memory... the human mind is capable of memorizing entire books.

you are correct that the random order makes it harder.

my next suggestion: break up the 12 words into 6 phrase of two words each...then paint a mental picture of each phrase, and link each scene together.

for example,let's say your seed is "constant forest adore false green weave stop guy fur freeze giggle clock"

now let's break that into:

1. constant forest
2. adore false
3. green weave
4. stop guy
5. fur freeze
6. giggle clock

for this, I'm going to imagine an "enchanted forest" type scene, where it is the same
all year round (constant).

so far I have "constant forest".

in this forest lives a beautiful queen who is really an evil witch,
she is adored, but her appearance is false of who she is really is...

"adore false".

she wears a green woven sweater.

"green weave"

one day a traveller is going through the forest,
and she encounters and stops him on the path.

"stop guy"

the guy is wearing a fur coat but the queen
freezes him with a magic spell and there
are now icicles dripping from his frozen
brown fur coat.

"fur freeze".

meanwhile a magic clock who lives
in the forest is laughing at the guy
who just got frozen.

"giggle clock".

now you can see how I took a group
of 12 random words and made some
mental constructs that made it much
easier to remember...if you use
repetition on this, and focus
on the links between the 6 phrases,
it becomes hard to forget the seed.

Thank you for the example,
This will take a bit of training in deed

[Q7]

Try to be creative. Write a poem. Or even author a short story. Slip the words into a paragraph or even break it down to several sections. Main thing is that only you can understand where it is hidden. An attacker or even somebody who are not aware might thought that it is just a poem but in actual fact, there are 12 random hidden seeds word concealed inside it.

[picolo]

Try to be creative. Write a poem. Or even author a short story. Slip the words into a paragraph or even break it down to several sections. Main thing is that only you can understand where it is hidden. An attacker or even somebody who are not aware might thought that it is just a poem but in actual fact, there are 12 random hidden seeds word concealed inside it.

You have to be very innovative and careful when you create a brain wallet, it's easy to forget it or make a mistake.