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Author Topic: Let's Fork Bitcoin To Bitcoin-POS  (Read 1391 times)
J. J. Phillips
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December 27, 2014, 12:38:37 PM
 #1

TLDR: There are too many POW vs. POS threads, so let's fork bitcoin to annoy both sides of the debate.

There have been a lot of POW vs. POS threads. Here is a recent one:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=905385.0

I suggested there that someone should just choose a block time in the near future and modify the current bitcoin code to start using POS at that point. The effect would be to (purposefully) fork the bitcoin block chain into a POW chain and a POS chain. Everyone who has bitcoins at that block will have bitcoins in both chains. (Hopefully everyone reading this knows that if they "have" bitcoins on an exchange they don't "have" those bitcoins at all.)

To be honest, I want this to be done because I'm annoyed. I'd like for every repetitive POW vs. POS thread in the future to have someone come in and say: "There's already a version of bitcoin that is POS, go use it."

I'm POW vs. POS agnostic so I'd like this little project to be equally annoying to both sides. I suspect most people on both sides have chosen their side because that's where there investment lies (bitcoin for POW, some existing altcoin for POS).  Neither of these people will be happy about a bitcoin-POS fork. I expect it to be ignored by almost everyone.

Or we can pitch it positively and say it's an experiment. But I'm not going to hide that my main motivation is annoyance.

I think this should be easy to pull off. Here's what I think would need to be done. If I've forgotten something or someone knows details, please let me know. This annoying project is also a good way to learn about the bitcoin source code.

Step 1: Take a copy of the current bitcoin code, presumably the new v0.10.0rc1.

Step 2: Decide on a block time for the fork. I'll suggest a block time that would cause the fork on January 3, 2015. That's a week from today and the 6th anniversary of the genesis block. Block 337200 should occur on that day.

Step 3: Get rid of any hard coded peers in the code and replace them with peers we set up.

Step 4: I suppose we should change the default port number and introductory handshake with peers so that we connect with each other instead of the current bitcoin-POW peers. If we don't do this, bitcoin-POW will still end up disconnecting from us (presumably) because we'll be delivering bad blocks after block 337200.

Step 5: Change the block version number from 2 to 3 and only accept blocks with version number 3 after block 337200.

Step 6: Find where blocks are checked for POW and, if the block is version number 3, check for POS instead. I've looked at some POS altcoins and it seems they have a fake coinbase tx first in the block and the second tx is the coinstake. The coinstake tx is the one that would get the reward and fees. The reward schedule would remain the same: currently 25 bitcoins and halving at the same blocks as bitcoinPOW. Oh, obviously the staking difficulty would need to be reset to someone reasonable for POS starting at block 337200. The code for checking POS could be copied from an existing C++ POS altcoin.

We could run our current bitcoin clients up to 337200. Then copy or move the .bitcoin directory to .bitcoinpos or something. Then start up the modified client. Then we have bitcoins on two block chains (one POW and one POS) and we can respond to annoying repetitive threads with information about an annoying fork that both sides would rather ignore.

If Israel is destroyed, I will devote the rest of my life to the extermination of the human species. Any species that goes down this road again less than 100 years after the holocaust needs to be fucking wiped out.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Affair_of_the_Gang_of_Barbarians
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kelsey
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December 27, 2014, 01:10:44 PM
 #2

be more entertaining to do it to btc testnet  Wink
J. J. Phillips
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December 27, 2014, 01:37:00 PM
 #3

be more entertaining to do it to btc testnet  Wink

Give me a plan on how to do this instead and I'll consider it. My impression is that I would have to get new testnet-related code into the code for the main bitcoin client. I could write the code and create a pull request (I guess), but I see no reason why it would be accepted.

If Israel is destroyed, I will devote the rest of my life to the extermination of the human species. Any species that goes down this road again less than 100 years after the holocaust needs to be fucking wiped out.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Affair_of_the_Gang_of_Barbarians
Ilan Halimi: tortured and murdered in France by barbarian Jew haters who'd be very comfortable here at bitcointalk.
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December 27, 2014, 04:19:01 PM
 #4

Or we can pitch it positively and say it's an experiment. But I'm not going to hide that my main motivation is annoyance.
Just why are you trying to fix a dying coin?

Since the Dev has left, and even Mark "Willybot" Karpelès stopped pumping it, just leave it to die. Try to let loose. Let it go.

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December 27, 2014, 04:28:20 PM
 #5

First don´t name it Bitcoin-POS, name it Bitcoin2

Don't do it completely POS, just decrease the amounts of bitcoins mined per block, the remaining bitcoins should be used for POS to strengthen the network. The amounts of bitcoins produced ever should stay the same.
Create a developer donation system to attract skilled developer. A part of new created bitcoins should be contributed to devs.
Imho we will have a better Bitcoin then.
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December 27, 2014, 04:35:42 PM
 #6

Good grief ..

We have some +500 alt coins out there now and you want to launch another one ..
Are none of them an 'improvement' on the original BTC ??

Triff ..
 

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December 27, 2014, 05:15:16 PM
 #7

look for 'bitcoin plus' (xbt or xbc)

is done already. Failed in summer.
You want to do it again? Seriously?

Your proposition was done months ago and failed miserably.
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December 27, 2014, 08:08:33 PM
 #8

Thanks for the responses. It is now clear that I have no ability to communicate whatsoever.

I don't want to launch another altcoin. And I'm not trying to "fix" bitcoin. I just wanted a fork so that people who are pro-POS can go there and stop creating a new thread every week saying "Why can't bitcoin be POS?" As for not making it POS, obviously if it's not POS then it doesn't accomplish that goal.

I looked for bitcoin plus (xbc). Thanks for pointing it out. I had no idea about it. But that wasn't a fork of the bitcoin block chain. If it were, I would have coins in their block chain and would be able to sell them now.

I guess the purpose behind people starting "Why can't bitcoin be POS?" threads every week really has nothing to do with the poster wanting bitcoin to be POS. Otherwise they'd be doing what this thread suggests. It would be easy to do.

Now if you'll excuse me I'm going to do something more productive: drink myself into a stuper and yell at brick walls in broken French. FFS.

If Israel is destroyed, I will devote the rest of my life to the extermination of the human species. Any species that goes down this road again less than 100 years after the holocaust needs to be fucking wiped out.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Affair_of_the_Gang_of_Barbarians
Ilan Halimi: tortured and murdered in France by barbarian Jew haters who'd be very comfortable here at bitcointalk.
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December 27, 2014, 08:32:04 PM
 #9

You will only be wating your time. Unless a majority is convinced there is nothing you can do.
Bitcoin is PoW for now and it will stay. It may change in future if the majority wants but thats how a decetralised system works.

balu2
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December 27, 2014, 09:45:00 PM
 #10

Thanks for the responses. It is now clear that I have no ability to communicate whatsoever.

I don't want to launch another altcoin. And I'm not trying to "fix" bitcoin. I just wanted a fork so that people who are pro-POS can go there and stop creating a new thread every week saying "Why can't bitcoin be POS?" As for not making it POS, obviously if it's not POS then it doesn't accomplish that goal.

I looked for bitcoin plus (xbc). Thanks for pointing it out. I had no idea about it. But that wasn't a fork of the bitcoin block chain. If it were, I would have coins in their block chain and would be able to sell them now.

I guess the purpose behind people starting "Why can't bitcoin be POS?" threads every week really has nothing to do with the poster wanting bitcoin to be POS. Otherwise they'd be doing what this thread suggests. It would be easy to do.

Now if you'll excuse me I'm going to do something more productive: drink myself into a stuper and yell at brick walls in broken French. FFS.

forking the blockchain with the current state and same privatekeys and adresses could be an interesting experiment. Potentially pisses some people off big time but i like that idea  Grin

Distribution will be nice. Valuation will be interesting.

xbt was a presale back then so that can't be compared with your idea. I like that idea now that i understand it (i  hope)

You talking about taking a snapshot of bitcoin blockchain and forking that to pos, right?
If you have a good team of developers you could potentially get some traction with that.
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December 27, 2014, 09:49:47 PM
 #11

Kind of a stupid idea, but if you can pull it off go for it.

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December 27, 2014, 10:54:29 PM
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forking the blockchain with the current state and same privatekeys and adresses could be an interesting experiment. Potentially pisses some people off big time but i like that idea  Grin

Technically its easy. Take a snapshot, create a genesis block and fork Peercoin or Bitshares. There is a project ongoing using a Consensus Proof of Stake which aims to see how a PoS Bitcoin can be possible.

Convincing enough people to actually use it is the challenge, and I feel at this time is a non-starter.






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balu2
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December 27, 2014, 11:51:00 PM
 #13

can be a starter but it absolutely  needs two things:

-a lot of commitement and determination and longterm thinking
-a very good dev team

without these two components will go nowhere.
Running a coin is a fulltime job.

So if you do not have time, willpower and a skilled team do not even start.
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December 27, 2014, 11:58:09 PM
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Someone is already working on a PoS coin based on similar ideals to the OP.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=584719.0
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December 28, 2014, 01:00:26 AM
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Bitcoin DPoS would at least make sense.
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December 28, 2014, 02:44:23 AM
 #16

Someone is already working on a PoS coin based on similar ideals to the OP.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=584719.0

Right. the altcoin A.I. Coin is currently alpha testing its Linux core derived from Bitcoin Core, its MultiBit-derived wallet for Windows, and its Insight-derived block explorer. Notable changes to Bitcoin source code involved removing the annoyance of waiting for confirmations before spending recently received funds. A.I. Coin uses a single nomadic mint with a non-forking blockchain. The network parameters are otherwise identical to Bitcoin, 21 million aicoins total, 50 aicoins generated exactly every 10 minutes with a four-year block reward halving. No block rewards are spent on mining equipment nor on electricity for hashing. The network is secured by software agents inspecting each other's tamper-evident data structures and signed activity logs.

A.I. Coin is to be launched in March 2015.

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December 28, 2014, 08:57:32 PM
 #17

I'm POW vs. POS agnostic...

They are suitable for different purposes.
You don't want a global money system to be a private enterprise owned by a wealthy few indefinitely.

Time might be better spent analyzing various properties and seeing it for yourself.

there is an element of everything in every thing
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December 29, 2014, 12:16:43 AM
 #18

IXC, the original bitcoin clone, is an interesting project. There is no inflation. All coins have been released as of oct.

So to sum up, IXC is the twin of bitcoin with zero inflation. Pow after mining has been complete.
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December 29, 2014, 02:28:30 AM
 #19

I would rather see meni's pow pos proposal implemented.  is there an altcoim for that?

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December 29, 2014, 04:14:04 AM
 #20

be more entertaining to do it to btc testnet  Wink

Give me a plan on how to do this instead and I'll consider it. My impression is that I would have to get new testnet-related code into the code for the main bitcoin client. I could write the code and create a pull request (I guess), but I see no reason why it would be accepted.

It will be more effective on the mainnet if the goal is to put an end to the continual debates about making Bitcoin pos.

Make it a modular change so it can be kept current.

:-)
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