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Author Topic: Opinions/thoughts wanted: A coin dev intentionally devaluing a coin?  (Read 704 times)
infernusdoleo
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December 27, 2014, 03:36:47 PM
 #1

Theres a coin I've been watching lately thats been doing well. Not naming names because it's pretty irrrelevant and I've no interest in bringing it any attention.

For a month or so the price has held steady at lets use .004 BTC as an example. Up some, down some, but overall hanging out at about .004 BTC.

Now this coin had a very large premine that was to be used to fund some other feature of the coin. All seemed pretty legit.

But a few days ago, the known premine address started taking massive withdrawals, and exchanges started seeing massive sales and volume skyrocketed.

Then I noticed a trend starting. EVERY time the price would stabilize, huge sell orders would appear at about 10% LOWER than the going rate. For example, the SELL column would look like:
.004001  42.82764
.004050  12.1298367
.004059  67.23645872
.004060  23.89237

And then this order would appear:
.003600  2589.23947
.004001  42.82764
.004050  12.1298367
.004059  67.23645872
.004060  23.89237

A very large price BELOW the lowest sell price, and a massive amount of it.

And they'd pretty quickly get snapped up, there was obvious buy interest in the coin. And no, I dont believe it was the dev also re-buying the coin, too much chatter in text rooms and too much volume to be that coordinated.

And after the price went down... a few hours later as the price started to recover...
.003620  42.82764
.003621  12.1298367
.003645  67.23645872
.003650  23.89237

Again, a huge 10% drop below the going rate would appear...
.003200  3100.00
.003620  42.82764
.003621  12.1298367
.003645  67.23645872
.003650  23.89237

Over and over this has happened over the course of about 3 days. The price is now about 25% what it was 3 days ago.

My question to the community in general: Can anyone think of a good reason for a dev to INTENTIONALLY drive the price down. Lots of chatter in chat rooms about the dev dumping the premine - thats no doubt. But from what I've noticed on orderbooks and examining API data, only about 25% of the premine has been dumped like this. If a dev is dumping the premine, if it were ME doing it, I'd do it carefully. Over time. And making sure I'm selling a lot more than 25% of it. So I'm not destroying the price in the process. Or if I were in a hurry, I surely wouldnt post the sales at 10% below the going rate... go a little under, to keep the coin from devaluing so quickly.

There was no large pump that was then dumped on - the price was stable for weeks.

Why would a coin dev intentionally DEVALUE the coin? Thoughts? Conspiracy theories?
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balu2
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December 27, 2014, 03:38:30 PM
 #2

premine is never legit. It's a lot of lies and the coin was just created to sell the premine to you. Once the dev sold all his coins he will not care about the coin and just start the next scam.
You must be new here?

Here is your meme, noob:




DO NOT BUY PREMINE, ICO, IPO, ITO, PRESALE OF ANY KIND if you don't want to be scammed!

your second meme:




think about it, trust nobody, lot of lies here.
99% of alts aren't worth buying
infernusdoleo
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December 27, 2014, 03:45:46 PM
 #3

premine is never legit. It's a lot of lies and the coin was just created to sell the premine to you. Once the dev sold all his coins he will not care about the coin and just start the next scam.
You must be new here?

Right. Understood. Thats the simple, "I havent bothered to actually think about the answer" answer.

But it doesnt explain the systematic, methodical, intentional devaluing of the coin. Not devaluing because a crapton is being dumped, but devaluing by intentionally posting sell orders much lower than the current, people are actually buying it and the price is rising value, and then when the lower sell orders are gone, intentionally WAITING for the price to start going BACK UP before posting another downward-price-driving sale.

Anyone who's put as much work into the website, the theory behind the coin, the possible scam supporting it to make it look worth investing so he CAN dump it... Would not be so stupid as to purposefully destroy their own profit by methodically lowering the price, and pushing it down EVERY time it shows life and starts to climb again.

Any smart dev dumping a coin would dump a ton... and then let the price recover. Maybe even buy some back, show buy support, stack low buy orders to weight the market depth charts. Then dump some more.

There's more to this than merely dumping. If you truly think thats "just a dump" then maybe the noob isn't on this end.

And yes, I'm very obviously new here. I obviously know nothing about crypto Wink
cassius69
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December 27, 2014, 03:54:16 PM
 #4

he's making it affordable so people are motivated to buy in. if they dont think they can make a profit they wont do it.

infernusdoleo
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December 27, 2014, 04:03:36 PM
 #5

he's making it affordable so people are motivated to buy in. if they dont think they can make a profit they wont do it.


Possible. The coin has another component to it where the coin can be used to buy that. And that other component is supposed to support the value. Kinda complicated but I'm intentionally being vague because the instant I say the coins name this gets labeled as FUD and fanboys and trolls alike chime in.

So it's hard to describe the other half of the coins purpose without giving it away. Suffice it to say that I believe it's not just a dump, it's too well orchestrated to lower the price to be just that.

Just looking for others thoughts as to what the reason could be.
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December 27, 2014, 04:06:20 PM
 #6

premine is never legit. It's a lot of lies and the coin was just created to sell the premine to you. Once the dev sold all his coins he will not care about the coin and just start the next scam.
You must be new here?

Right. Understood. Thats the simple, "I havent bothered to actually think about the answer" answer.

But it doesnt explain the systematic, methodical, intentional devaluing of the coin. Not devaluing because a crapton is being dumped, but devaluing by intentionally posting sell orders much lower than the current, people are actually buying it and the price is rising value, and then when the lower sell orders are gone, intentionally WAITING for the price to start going BACK UP before posting another downward-price-driving sale.

Anyone who's put as much work into the website, the theory behind the coin, the possible scam supporting it to make it look worth investing so he CAN dump it... Would not be so stupid as to purposefully destroy their own profit by methodically lowering the price, and pushing it down EVERY time it shows life and starts to climb again.

Any smart dev dumping a coin would dump a ton... and then let the price recover. Maybe even buy some back, show buy support, stack low buy orders to weight the market depth charts. Then dump some more.

There's more to this than merely dumping. If you truly think thats "just a dump" then maybe the noob isn't on this end.

And yes, I'm very obviously new here. I obviously know nothing about crypto Wink

the possible answer would be:

-he has way more coins than you think he could  have that's why he dumps because he knows price will never come back higher
-he is bad trader or impatient (i can't believe we even discuss that here)
-needs to get a lot of coins out before others realize his selling and dump too - so his timewindow to sell his big premine is probably small because others could take his liquidity in the market once they understand he's selling.


other question:
why do you even care? Are you still in the coin or what?
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December 27, 2014, 05:14:05 PM
 #7

Just looking for others thoughts as to what the reason could be.
Pumpgroup.

That is clearly a pumpgroup activity in shake out mode. You allready observed how the foot soldiers bought up the 10% below market dumps. They are rearranging for the next pump. Clink to your coins, they want to get rid of you as a participant in the next round.
Wagering a bet the pump was 8~10 weeks ago?

There was a nicely written tragedy popping up right before christmas, describing the inner working mechanics. That DOGE pumper has published some confessions somewhere, too. Nice reading, besides beeing some monthes older the scene still works same ways.

infernusdoleo
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December 27, 2014, 10:04:25 PM
 #8

Just looking for others thoughts as to what the reason could be.
Pumpgroup.

That is clearly a pumpgroup activity in shake out mode. You allready observed how the foot soldiers bought up the 10% below market dumps. They are rearranging for the next pump. Clink to your coins, they want to get rid of you as a participant in the next round.
Wagering a bet the pump was 8~10 weeks ago?

There was a nicely written tragedy popping up right before christmas, describing the inner working mechanics. That DOGE pumper has published some confessions somewhere, too. Nice reading, besides beeing some monthes older the scene still works same ways.

Except the coin didnt exist 8-10 weeks ago and never had a high it was pumped to. It hit the market and stayed relatively steady for weeks, until a few days ago.

It was never pumped. Also, one thing I forgot to mention in the OP is that the premine is as I write this 2000x larger than the rest of the available coins.

In one day on one exchange there were 6x the qty of non-premined coins traded.

In other words, it's the premine thats being sold.

So, no, it's not a pump group.
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December 28, 2014, 12:58:54 AM
 #9

The dev probably realizes he cannot dump all the premine before people cotton on and is taking what he can get, when he can get it.
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December 28, 2014, 02:39:20 AM
 #10

It was never pumped. Also, one thing I forgot to mention in the OP is that the premine is as I write this 2000x larger than the rest of the available coins.
Shocked

Why would a coin dev intentionally DEVALUE the coin? Thoughts? Conspiracy theories?
No conspiracy found, it is just a shitcoin by design, up from the beginning. Geez You asked for opinions. Here there is another one. Get out whilest you can.

infernusdoleo
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December 28, 2014, 06:49:34 AM
 #11

The dev probably realizes he cannot dump all the premine before people cotton on and is taking what he can get, when he can get it.

Which explains why he's intentionally taking less profit than he could get by dumping the price lower than the going rate when the price is actually climbing.

I see now I asked for opinion here in error. My apologies. Expecting a well thought out reply on an internet forum is like buying a lottery ticket. You can wish and pray... but your chances of getting what you hope for are infinitesimally small.
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December 28, 2014, 08:05:35 AM
 #12

The dev probably realizes he cannot dump all the premine before people cotton on and is taking what he can get, when he can get it.

Which explains why he's intentionally taking less profit than he could get by dumping the price lower than the going rate when the price is actually climbing.

I see now I asked for opinion here in error. My apologies. Expecting a well thought out reply on an internet forum is like buying a lottery ticket. You can wish and pray... but your chances of getting what you hope for are infinitesimally small.

you want an answer that you only want to hear then?

also, what serious dev would want to intentionally devalue his own project?

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BitcoinEXpress
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December 28, 2014, 08:10:18 AM
 #13



There's a reason why most altcoins are known as scamcoins.



~BCX~
infernusdoleo
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December 28, 2014, 05:44:31 PM
 #14

The dev probably realizes he cannot dump all the premine before people cotton on and is taking what he can get, when he can get it.

Which explains why he's intentionally taking less profit than he could get by dumping the price lower than the going rate when the price is actually climbing.

I see now I asked for opinion here in error. My apologies. Expecting a well thought out reply on an internet forum is like buying a lottery ticket. You can wish and pray... but your chances of getting what you hope for are infinitesimally small.

you want an answer that you only want to hear then?

also, what serious dev would want to intentionally devalue his own project?

No, I was hoping to hear a well thought out answer. Not the standard "its a scam!" or "dumping the premine!". Scam, very likely. Dumping the premine? Well, duh. But that wasn't my question. I was HOPING to hear intelligent answers that might explain why he was intentionally driving the price down. If I made a scamcoin with the intent to dump the premine, I sure as hell wouldn't post a sell for .000102 when the next lowest sell was .00073 as it was this morning on one exchange. And before the chants of "Hes just trying to dump it faster!" start - I'll repeat - for a few days the low sells appeared AFTER THE PRICE STARTED TO RISE. There was big buy support. Price going up. Big sell 10% under the going rate. You only do that if you're monumentally stupid, or there's a reason for it.

And as for your second question, what serious dev would intentionally devalue his own project? Exactly. That was my question in the first place. Not to debate if he was or wasnt - the fact he was is obvious. I was hoping those with more experience than I might have insight as to why someone would WANT to do that.
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December 28, 2014, 06:19:24 PM
 #15

Maybe he's gaming the market.

The dev has a huge premine and therefore the ability to set a virtually unbeatable sell wall price.

Now let's say he has a bunch of BTC earned, bought or mined previously.

So he sets it low forcing anyone who wants to exit to go even lower and then he buys up everything
below the sell wall and removes it and shifts to creating a buy wall.

He sets a buy wall now somewhat a few percent higher than the previous sell wall, meaning anyone wanting
to buy in has to now pay more than his buy wall price.

He sells the coins he just bought to the new buyers for a percent profit in BTC.

Rinse and repeat building a large stash of both the coin and BTC up.

I've used this tactic successfully a bunch of times (on a small scale) in the DMD market. If I want more DMD, I place
a sell order for some of my stash 1 satoshi more than I want to pay. Someone outbids me and I buy them. When I have
enough DMD, I switch to selling by creating buy offers 1 satoshi less than I want to sell for. People outbid me to buy and
I then sell to them.

This actually works especially if you have enough coin and BTC to make walls which the other traders cannot break.



infernusdoleo
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December 28, 2014, 07:46:01 PM
 #16

Maybe he's gaming the market.

The dev has a huge premine and therefore the ability to set a virtually unbeatable sell wall price.

Now let's say he has a bunch of BTC earned, bought or mined previously.

So he sets it low forcing anyone who wants to exit to go even lower and then he buys up everything
below the sell wall and removes it and shifts to creating a buy wall.

He sets a buy wall now somewhat a few percent higher than the previous sell wall, meaning anyone wanting
to buy in has to now pay more than his buy wall price.

He sells the coins he just bought to the new buyers for a percent profit in BTC.

Rinse and repeat building a large stash of both the coin and BTC up.

I've used this tactic successfully a bunch of times (on a small scale) in the DMD market. If I want more DMD, I place
a sell order for some of my stash 1 satoshi more than I want to pay. Someone outbids me and I buy them. When I have
enough DMD, I switch to selling by creating buy offers 1 satoshi less than I want to sell for. People outbid me to buy and
I then sell to them.

This actually works especially if you have enough coin and BTC to make walls which the other traders cannot break.


Thanks for the insight, thats actually extremely interesting to wrap your brain around.

It doesnt SEEM like thats what is going on given the patterns, but, maybe the plan is to completely crash the price, take all the earned BTC, then once the price had bottomed out, take that BTC and buy back tons more? But as I type that, it makes no sense - not in THIS case - where the dev owns, via premine, literally 96% of all coins out there. No reason to manipulate just to get more. That being said, with other coins thats a very valid tactic.

The more I see this play out (the other components to this coin are also now going haywire, and there are either a lot of paid cronies still hyping it, or more likely, a TON of koolaid drinking sheep too dumb to smell the smoke) the more I think the dev is just an utter imbecile who thinks that by undercutting the price he'll sell more of the premine. If he had half a brain he could have easily doubled his take.

Oh well. It was fun to watch anyway.
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December 28, 2014, 09:03:13 PM
 #17


TC is the worse thing to happen to default, needs to open his eyes and not jump to conclusions, not everyone lies!!! Anyway as promised I have left, pass word changed to long random which I will forget like that plonker who ruined a perfectly fine account.
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December 29, 2014, 12:25:35 AM
 #18

In my opinion, even an honest use of a premine is bad. It centralizes currency control so that buy and sell pressure can be artificially introduced. Even if the individual behind it is not making any profit from it the whole benefit of a decentralized currency is lost. It becomes no different in function and capability from a cental bank.

Now, to answer the question as to a benefit of driving down prices, let's compare it to fiat. The Swiss franc has been going up in value because people were moving money out of struggling currencies like Russian. They set an upper limit on how high they will allow their currency to rise because they prefer price stability. To reach this goal they introduced a negative interest rate.

See? A completely legit application would be to promote price stability. Not to destroy it.

Now, let's assume for a moment you wanted a coin to do just that: maintain stability. In theory a premine could be autonomously controlled by the network itself with access to a Bitcoin address to buy and sell the altcoin with. If it was programmed to target a given price range it might work, but whoever wrote the program would know the address and couldn't have that portion open source. Maybe if the network also autonomously created those addresses and then were given the starting Bitcoin funds to establish such a mechanism it might work, but are price controls a good thing? Even decentralized? And is it right to use such a profram if it would also end up incidentally impacting the price of the Bitcoin used?

Immortal until proven otherwise.
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