Winklevoss ETF update, what does this mean?

[MarketNeutral]

Wow I came here looking for an Winklevoss update and I found more than i bargained for but cant seem to find the answer to my question. How are things coming along with this. we need this to go thru. Is anyone strongly following this Winklevoss situation and can give us n honest unbiased update, not speculation, but you know for sure this is whats happening thank you

I second this.

I suspect part of the reason there is such a dearth of information about the ETF is that the Winklevoss brothers are horrible at public relations and promotion, and moreover, that there simply aren't any meaningful updates to report.

There's only one known undeniable fact about this ETF that's available right now. The Winkleiidouches are trying to make themselves a fat stack of cash using Bitcoin.

Spot on.

[cyberpinoy]

There's only one known undeniable fact about this ETF that's available right now. The Winkleiidouches are trying to make themselves a fat stack of cash using Bitcoin.

Well I hope they do because if they get this thing going and do it right, we could all see a better rebound than it has ever sen. Bitcoin is traded so small scale right now, the people got in in 2009 got out in 2012/2013 and now not even they trust the market enough to jump in again, whats that tell you about bitcoin investors. Your "Winkleiidouches" as you so tactfully called them, were smart enough to realize the only players in bitcoin  now are idiots who dont understand trading, they dont know what bitcoin really is and what they are doing could very well change this whole game. They are not waiting with their thumbs up their ass to make some money on bitcoin like all the vets and developers are. they made an investment and they want a very good return. So instead of sitting on their thumbs up their asses they are taking this market to the big boys who have so much money the in their trading portfolio if you converted it to Bitcoins it would embarrass the person in the number 1 spot of Bitcoins richest wallets.

If they complete this task, you will no longer call them "Winkleiidouches" you will be calling them the next Bitcoin Gods and thanking your lucky stars they came thru, because whatever your holding, could be worth 4 times to 6 times what it is now, before they are done.

[QuestionAuthority]

There's only one known undeniable fact about this ETF that's available right now. The Winkleiidouches are trying to make themselves a fat stack of cash using Bitcoin.

Well I hope they do because if they get this thing going and do it right, we could all see a better rebound than it has ever sen. Bitcoin is traded so small scale right now, the people got in in 2009 got out in 2012/2013 and now not even they trust the market enough to jump in again, whats that tell you about bitcoin investors. Your "Winkleiidouches" as you so tactfully called them, were smart enough to realize the only players in bitcoin  now are idiots who dont understand trading, they dont know what bitcoin really is and what they are doing could very well change this whole game. They are not waiting with their thumbs up their ass to make some money on bitcoin like all the vets and developers are. they made an investment and they want a very good return. So instead of sitting on their thumbs up their asses they are taking this market to the big boys who have so much money the in their trading portfolio if you converted it to Bitcoins it would embarrass the person in the number 1 spot of Bitcoins richest wallets.

If they complete this task, you will no longer call them "Winkleiidouches" you will be calling them the next Bitcoin Gods and thanking your lucky stars they came thru, because whatever your holding, could be worth 4 times to 6 times what it is now, before they are done.

Nah, even if they make me a bunch of money they'll still be Harvard fraternity elitist scumbags. The rest of it's speculation. They couldn't care less about Bitcoin they just want to make money. They'd sell dog turd futures if their advisor saw a profit in it. I watched the two of them speak at a Bitcoin conference. These two are a couple of seriously unimpressive dudes. You'll never convince me that investing in bitcoin was their idea.

[mmortal03]

One point that's been overlooked in this discussion: ETFs allow institutional and qualified/professional investors to purchase regulated securities, pursuant either to their own internal bylaws and product placement memoranda, or to securities laws by which they must abide. For example, a professional investment fund, such as a mutual fund or hedge fund or pension fund, is limited in how it may allocate investors' funds insofar as the fund is only permitted to purchase securities regulated under such-and-such provisions. A fund may indeed wish to purchase bitcoins right now, but it cannot due to the aforesaid regulatory provisions; however an ETF investment vehicle would allow the fund to purchase shares in the bitcoin ETF right now, shares that would presumably track the Bitcoin price, and may be bought, sold, and traded—in a regulated environment—as any other shares would be.

Exactly. Even people who just want to invest a percentage of their Roth IRA portfolio holdings into bitcoins will be able to do so with this.

[gogxmagog]

It will blow the lid off btc, send it to the moon. I can see it legitimizing crypto for many who would never consider it before. They have a ton of btc to play with, they will move the price every day.

[QuestionAuthority]

It will blow the lid off btc, send it to the moon. I can see it legitimizing crypto for many who would never consider it before. They have a ton of btc to play with, they will move the price every day.

This won't really legitimize Bitcoin. It's kind of designed for exactly the opposite. This will allow people that don't want to get dirty by holding Bitcoin directly to get in on the action. Like when drug lords invest in a Vegas casino. The casino gets the drug money without having to sell a few kilos of dope.

Investors like to have a few percent of their portfolio in super high risk high yield investments. If their risky investment succeeds it increases their bottom line a great deal. If it fails it doesn't drop their bottom line by very much. Buying riskier assets with a low correlation with each other is the classic diversification strategy. Bitcoin also acts like an inverse preformer which could allow hedging of less risky investments. Hedges aren't really legitimate investments. They are more like casino dice rolls that you're gambling will pay off if everything else in your portfolio tanks.

[LiteCoinGuy]

Are the WV twins actually registered on Bitcointalk?

As far as i know they aren't, atleast they never signed message with their addy.

only reddit i guess.

[uvt9]

If institutional investors wanted to invest in Bitcoin, they would be already in the game. Those guys are so sensitive with potential profits and there is no way they don't invest in something they want just because it isn't a fund.

I think that Winklevoss ETF is just an attempt of the twins trying to get out of Bitcoin by selling to some naive retail investor.

[KenJackson]

They have a ton of btc to play with, they will move the price every day.

Hmmm.  This raises an interesting question.

When an investor buys 5 shares, the fund has to buy one bitcoin.  But where will the fund go to buy the bitcoin--from the open market, or from the twins?

If the fund buys bitcoins from the open market, then it should have a very positive influence on the dollar equivalent value of bitcoin, which we'll all enjoy.

But what if the fund buys bitcoins from the twins?  That will allow the twins to offload their bitcoins without affecting the market.  That will be good for them, but it won't drive up the dollar value of bitcoin.

I don't think there's any legal issue.  But it'll be interesting to see what the exchange rate does when COIN finally opens for trading.

[Mortimer452]

The Winklevie own a fuck-ton of Bitcoins.  More than could be easily converted to $USD using methods available today without totally crashing the market.

This could be a way for them to simply get the best price available for the BTC they own.  Rather than selling to existing investors available through today's crypto-currency exchanges, they are opening up Bitcoin to a whole new category of investors who wouldn't touch it otherwise.

I'm sure some are probably doing it small-scale anyway, but most investment firms are limited to trading on the public market due to regulatory compliance.  It is doubtful they are legally allowed to take their clients' money and buy BTC with it.  Schwab, Merryl Lynch and others are not going to put millions (or thousands, for that matter) into unregulated, uninsured, mostly overseas and privately owned crypto exchanges just to get in on the BTC action.

But . . . with a public listing on the NASDAQ, they sure will.  And so will all the little guys wondering WTF to do with their IRA money this year.  And so will day traders, with the software and user interfaces they are already accustomed to using.

I firmly believe this will either be the best or worst thing that has ever happened to Bitcoin.  It will either go ballistic, or fail miserably and everyone will lose confidence in crypto's completely.

[MarketNeutral]

If institutional investors wanted to invest in Bitcoin, they would be already in the game. Those guys are so sensitive with potential profits and there is no way they don't invest in something they want just because it isn't a fund.

To clarify: presently, institutional investors are not investing their clients' money into bitcoin. It's a compliance nightmare without any regulated bitcoin securities. Some wish to invest in bitcoin. Most do not. However, a few institutional fund managers have personally invested small amounts of their own money into bitcoin and have suggested others to do the same.

[MarketNeutral]

There's only one known undeniable fact about this ETF that's available right now. The Winkleiidouches are trying to make themselves a fat stack of cash using Bitcoin.

Well I hope they do because if they get this thing going and do it right, we could all see a better rebound than it has ever sen. Bitcoin is traded so small scale right now, the people got in in 2009 got out in 2012/2013 and now not even they trust the market enough to jump in again, whats that tell you about bitcoin investors. Your "Winkleiidouches" as you so tactfully called them, were smart enough to realize the only players in bitcoin  now are idiots who dont understand trading, they dont know what bitcoin really is and what they are doing could very well change this whole game. They are not waiting with their thumbs up their ass to make some money on bitcoin like all the vets and developers are. they made an investment and they want a very good return. So instead of sitting on their thumbs up their asses they are taking this market to the big boys who have so much money the in their trading portfolio if you converted it to Bitcoins it would embarrass the person in the number 1 spot of Bitcoins richest wallets.

If they complete this task, you will no longer call them "Winkleiidouches" you will be calling them the next Bitcoin Gods and thanking your lucky stars they came thru, because whatever your holding, could be worth 4 times to 6 times what it is now, before they are done.

Underrated post.

Irrespective of how much the Winklevoss Twins may profit from their endeavor or if they are of virtuous character, a legit Bitcoin ETF would indeed attract investor capital to Bitcoin in unprecedented amounts.

[mmortal03]

It will blow the lid off btc, send it to the moon. I can see it legitimizing crypto for many who would never consider it before. They have a ton of btc to play with, they will move the price every day.

This won't really legitimize Bitcoin. It's kind of designed for exactly the opposite. This will allow people that don't want to get dirty by holding Bitcoin directly to get in on the action. Like when drug lords invest in a Vegas casino. The casino gets the drug money without having to sell a few kilos of dope.

Investors like to have a few percent of their portfolio in super high risk high yield investments. If their risky investment succeeds it increases their bottom line a great deal. If it fails it doesn't drop their bottom line by very much. Buying riskier assets with a low correlation with each other is the classic diversification strategy. Bitcoin also acts like an inverse preformer which could allow hedging of less risky investments. Hedges aren't really legitimate investments. They are more like casino dice rolls that you're gambling will pay off if everything else in your portfolio tanks.

Sounds like you don't follow the industry, then. Whether you like it or not, it will legitimize Bitcoin in an area where there is lots of money ready to move in.

[QuestionAuthority]

It will blow the lid off btc, send it to the moon. I can see it legitimizing crypto for many who would never consider it before. They have a ton of btc to play with, they will move the price every day.

This won't really legitimize Bitcoin. It's kind of designed for exactly the opposite. This will allow people that don't want to get dirty by holding Bitcoin directly to get in on the action. Like when drug lords invest in a Vegas casino. The casino gets the drug money without having to sell a few kilos of dope.

Investors like to have a few percent of their portfolio in super high risk high yield investments. If their risky investment succeeds it increases their bottom line a great deal. If it fails it doesn't drop their bottom line by very much. Buying riskier assets with a low correlation with each other is the classic diversification strategy. Bitcoin also acts like an inverse preformer which could allow hedging of less risky investments. Hedges aren't really legitimate investments. They are more like casino dice rolls that you're gambling will pay off if everything else in your portfolio tanks.

Sounds like you don't follow the industry, then. Whether you like it or not, it will legitimize Bitcoin in an area where there is lots of money ready to move in.

We'll see when the sales numbers come in.

[Patel]

^

If the numbers come in.

[Searing]

myself I really doubt in the present climate of press FUD etc with bitstamp and the price drop
that they will get confirmed to proceed on their ETF fund

i suspect they will get some kind of "pending' status and the agency will kick this
down the road with no action until "suitable legislative action is taken with bitcoin"

this is the norm in the USA to now kick the can down the road ...say your are fully
behind something to look like you are in favor without any real results

hope I'm wrong but it has gone on too long to get accreditation or whatever is
left to be done.....looks to me like the 'big stall'  is in the works by the Feds..

again imho ..hope I'm wrong

[Willisius]

It will blow the lid off btc, send it to the moon. I can see it legitimizing crypto for many who would never consider it before. They have a ton of btc to play with, they will move the price every day.

This won't really legitimize Bitcoin. It's kind of designed for exactly the opposite. This will allow people that don't want to get dirty by holding Bitcoin directly to get in on the action. Like when drug lords invest in a Vegas casino. The casino gets the drug money without having to sell a few kilos of dope.

Investors like to have a few percent of their portfolio in super high risk high yield investments. If their risky investment succeeds it increases their bottom line a great deal. If it fails it doesn't drop their bottom line by very much. Buying riskier assets with a low correlation with each other is the classic diversification strategy. Bitcoin also acts like an inverse preformer which could allow hedging of less risky investments. Hedges aren't really legitimate investments. They are more like casino dice rolls that you're gambling will pay off if everything else in your portfolio tanks.

Sounds like you don't follow the industry, then. Whether you like it or not, it will legitimize Bitcoin in an area where there is lots of money ready to move in.

I would agree with QA. It would allow more people to invest in and own bitcoin however it would probably actually slow adoption because people would have difficulty getting their COIN into actually spendable bitcoin

[Vessko]

When an investor buys 5 shares, the fund has to buy one bitcoin.  But where will the fund go to buy the bitcoin--from the open market, or from the twins?

It's a bit more complicated than that. The fund already has about 200.000 BTC - the ones the twins have. Based on that, the fund will sell shares, so the twins will essentially cash out on their BTC. However, this by itself will not depress the BTC price, since it is not equivalent to dumping 200k BTC on the market.

When an investor buys shares, the fund doesn't have to buy BTC - it already has them. The fund just gets dollars from the investor, who now owns shares. (Theoretically, he owns BTC, but can redeem them only at multiples of 50k shares.)

The only case when the fund will have to buy BTC is if the public is buying ETF shares faster than it is buying BTC. Then the fund will have to create shares, sell them and buy BTC with the proceedings, in order to get the prices of BTC and the shares back in sync. Since the difference in demand (of shares and BTC) is unlikely to be large for significant periods of time, these operations will be relatively small. But, yes, in such cases the fund will have to buy BTC on the open market.

If the fund buys bitcoins from the open market, then it should have a very positive influence on the dollar equivalent value of bitcoin, which we'll all enjoy.

Only while the public is buying ETF shares faster than it is buying BTC, and only until the difference in demand is brought back into equilibrium. Do not expect a moonshot because of the fund's operations, and do not forget that it will act in reverse too (if demand for the shares is lower than demand for BTC, the fund will have to dump some BTC on the market, suppressing the price of BTC).

The prositive effect of the fund will be different - it will bring more liquidity to the market (more buyers and sellers) and will reduce the volatility a bit (and will probably reduce the price differences between the different exchanges).

[mmortal03]

It will blow the lid off btc, send it to the moon. I can see it legitimizing crypto for many who would never consider it before. They have a ton of btc to play with, they will move the price every day.

This won't really legitimize Bitcoin. It's kind of designed for exactly the opposite. This will allow people that don't want to get dirty by holding Bitcoin directly to get in on the action. Like when drug lords invest in a Vegas casino. The casino gets the drug money without having to sell a few kilos of dope.

Investors like to have a few percent of their portfolio in super high risk high yield investments. If their risky investment succeeds it increases their bottom line a great deal. If it fails it doesn't drop their bottom line by very much. Buying riskier assets with a low correlation with each other is the classic diversification strategy. Bitcoin also acts like an inverse preformer which could allow hedging of less risky investments. Hedges aren't really legitimate investments. They are more like casino dice rolls that you're gambling will pay off if everything else in your portfolio tanks.

Sounds like you don't follow the industry, then. Whether you like it or not, it will legitimize Bitcoin in an area where there is lots of money ready to move in.

I would agree with QA. It would allow more people to invest in and own bitcoin however it would probably actually slow adoption because people would have difficulty getting their COIN into actually spendable bitcoin

There will always be a price that will pair sellers with buyers who want to actually spend them.

[ChuckBuck]

I personally think it will legitimize Bitcoin, because it'll bring the name "Bitcoin" to Joe Blow home investor on his Schwab account, as well as, the institutional big boys.

Having an ETF period means Wall Street will start taking a more serious look at "Bitcoin" as a brand.

Many investors and traders that buy stock in AAPL, MSFT, or NKE etc, are more likely to find out, research, and even utilize their products and services.

This would be a major win-win for BTC, especially if the ETF takes off after launch.