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Author Topic: Hypothetical price collapse and massive farms failure.  (Read 3192 times)
fran2k
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January 03, 2015, 04:48:17 AM
 #21

The network will became slower, taking more time for each confirmation/block to come.

This happened in some dead old altcoins. Now most use dynamic difficulty adjustment in every block, DGW, KGW, etc.

Last known example was in Protoshares with difficulty adjustment taking several blocks and may be waiting 4-6 hours for a damn block to confirm your transaction.

Clearly people would increment the transaction fee to incentive the miners. Also the amount of transactions in a block would increase because of the decrease in blocks / time incrementing the corresponding additional reward.
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January 03, 2015, 04:59:32 AM
 #22

soon it's not hypothetical anymore.

Question:
what do we do when bitcoin fails?

What is Plan B? Is there a Plan B?
Hint: It starts with "R"  Tongue Tongue

and it ends with "UN"
Cheesy

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Pecunia non olet
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January 03, 2015, 04:59:56 AM
 #23


In other words: slower transactions will cost more to send?

he talked about bitshares with 4-6 hours adjustement ... bitcoin would simply be sold off and abandoned if it came to that because 2016 blocks adjustement is two weeks - but only two weeks at normal blocktime. Get the spin?

Network would come to a halt most likely.

My question remains:
does any sudden and harsh drop in hashrate automatically cause this scenario to happen?

Is a single serious set-back in hashrate the end of BTC? Is it really that easy to knock out? OMFG!

What happens when a large pool with let's say 30% of the network has technical problems and just goes offline and hash isn't replaced fast enough? Bitcoin dead?

Looking for some answers here

RyNinDaCleM
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January 03, 2015, 05:20:43 AM
 #24


In other words: slower transactions will cost more to send?

he talked about bitshares with 4-6 hours adjustement ... bitcoin would simply be sold off and abandoned if it came to that because 2016 blocks adjustement is two weeks - but only two weeks at normal blocktime. Get the spin?

Network would come to a halt most likely.

My question remains:
does any sudden and harsh drop in hashrate automatically cause this scenario to happen?

Is a single serious set-back in hashrate the end of BTC? Is it really that easy to knock out? OMFG!

What happens when a large pool with let's say 30% of the network has technical problems and just goes offline and hash isn't replaced fast enough? Bitcoin dead?

Looking for some answers here

No, that wouldn't kill Bitcoin because A) most of those miners would point their miners at another pool or solo mine and B) it's usually a safe bet that the pool would come back online eventually. The worst that would happen in that scenario would be an easier (still not easy by any means) shot at a 51% attack.

If we lost a significant amount of hash power just because of miners giving up, then that is a different story. 30% would slow transactions, but the remaining 70% would be able to support the network through a couple of retargets until it equalizes. 60% loss in a few days would be difficult to recover from.

Pecunia non olet
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January 03, 2015, 05:29:01 AM
 #25

certainly interesting ... need to get coldstorage more easily accessible right NAO!  Lips sealed

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January 03, 2015, 06:33:51 AM
 #26


In other words: slower transactions will cost more to send?

he talked about bitshares with 4-6 hours adjustement ... bitcoin would simply be sold off and abandoned if it came to that because 2016 blocks adjustement is two weeks - but only two weeks at normal blocktime. Get the spin?

Network would come to a halt most likely.
If we saw a massive drop in the hashrate for whatever reason the protocol would probably would be get forked so that the difficulty would adjust ahead of schedule on a one time basis. We would probably need to see a very large drop in the hashrate, likely exceeding 50% in a less then two week period.
My question remains:
does any sudden and harsh drop in hashrate automatically cause this scenario to happen?
assuming the network continues to have 100% luck then yes a drop in the hashrate will cause the confirmation time to increase
Is a single serious set-back in hashrate the end of BTC? Is it really that easy to knock out? OMFG!

What happens when a large pool with let's say 30% of the network has technical problems and just goes offline and hash isn't replaced fast enough? Bitcoin dead?
The miners should have at least two fallover (or backup) pools in the event the primary pool is not working. The miners should switch to other pools automatically and without the intervention of their owners/operators
Looking for some answers here
BlindMayorBitcorn
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January 03, 2015, 06:38:41 AM
 #27

How about a hypothetical slow bleed down to double digits. Not so Hollywood, but much more likely

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January 03, 2015, 11:54:52 AM
 #28

The difficulty is rising again, profit driven farms might go underwater and close down, but they might become a perfect place to hide money: You send money to buy mining rigs and get fresh bitcoins out of it, so I guess the farms will still thrive until further regulation fall upon mining industry

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January 03, 2015, 01:00:46 PM
 #29

the price of ASICs drops to almost nothing. people with access to free or near-free electricity (e.g. icelanders) buy the ASICs and start mining. people who are already mining with free electricity just keep going.

not a big deal.

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January 03, 2015, 01:12:24 PM
 #30

FUD FUD FUD

Why would there be a total price collapse? The reason the price has sat at 300 is because the market is pricing BTC at 300. Miners won't dump and destroy their business model.

Keep dreaming Smiley
spazzdla (OP)
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January 03, 2015, 04:40:21 PM
 #31

How about a hypothetical slow bleed down to double digits. Not so Hollywood, but much more likely

Same difference.  The massive farms would be forced to shutdown.

The idea of transactions slowing down and killing BTC is utterly silly.  It would recalculate not even bother worrying about.

IMO it would be the start of a bull run as everyone mining would be hording.. well I figure they would be anways.
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January 03, 2015, 04:41:37 PM
 #32

FUD FUD FUD

Why would there be a total price collapse? The reason the price has sat at 300 is because the market is pricing BTC at 300. Miners won't dump and destroy their business model.

Keep dreaming Smiley

Go talk about how it's impossible in the other 7 billion threads I really don't care if you think it's possible or not.  If you think this is a FUD thread you need to take your head out of your ass.
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January 03, 2015, 05:03:48 PM
 #33

...
The idea of transactions slowing down and killing BTC is utterly silly.  It would recalculate not even bother worrying about.
...

As long as BTC price decline is gradual, but big corrections/reward halvings?  Sure we had them before, but the last halving kinda coincided with new tech--FPGA/ASIC miners.  Now quantum leaps like that are pretty unlikely, and ASICs can't be sold off on EBay like vid cards. If mining costs = ~value of the coins mined during the halving, and if there's a more profitable SHA256 clonecoin to shift the hashpower to...
Not saying will happen, but not impossible.  
dataispower
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January 03, 2015, 05:36:48 PM
 #34

soon it's not hypothetical anymore.

Question:
what do we do when bitcoin fails?

What is Plan B? Is there a Plan B?
Hint: It starts with "R"  Tongue Tongue

dogecoin?  Tongue

It might sound as a joke to you but Dogecoin inflation rate is much lower today than bitcoin and will be even lower later (Litecoin inflation rate is even worse than bitcoin).

Dogecoin and bitcoin estimated inflation rate for the next 10 years:

2015: Bitcoin: 10.00% | Dogecoin: 5.20%
2016: Bitcoin: 9.09%   | Dogecoin: 4.94%
2017: Bitcoin: 4.17%   | Dogecoin: 4.71%
2018: Bitcoin: 4.00%   | Dogecoin: 4.50%
2019: Bitcoin: 3.85%   | Dogecoin: 4.30%
2020: Bitcoin: 3.70%   | Dogecoin: 4.13%
2021: Bitcoin: 1.79%   | Dogecoin: 3.96%
2022: Bitcoin: 1.75%   | Dogecoin: 3.81%
2023: Bitcoin: 1.72%   | Dogecoin: 3.67%
2024: Bitcoin: 1.69%   | Dogecoin: 3.54%

To learn more about Dogecoin visit:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=800004.0;all

https://bitcoinwisdom.com/
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January 03, 2015, 05:44:01 PM
 #35

Didn't know they were calling the large mining operations farms now. That's a mixed metaphor. Which is it, mining or farming?  Huh Grin Huh Grin

My take is a miner is running a small setup from home and a bitcoin farm is a giant factory full to the roof with shelves of ASICs.
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January 03, 2015, 05:48:46 PM
 #36

To a certain extent the confirmation time for a transaction (time it takes for a new block to be mined) is going to go up. Depends on the drop in hash rate how much this is going to be. This may hurt the utility of Bitcoin a bit, but this problem is going to solve itself with the next difficulty-adjustment. Apart from that the core technology will mostly remain unaffected.

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January 03, 2015, 05:55:00 PM
 #37

Didn't know they were calling the large mining operations farms now. That's a mixed metaphor. Which is it, mining or farming?  Huh Grin Huh Grin

My take is a miner is running a small setup from home and a bitcoin farm is a giant factory full to the roof with shelves of ASICs.

Yeah but if it's mining why not call a large operation with shelves of ASICS a mine? If you have 1 person mining for copper somewhere he's a miner, but if you have hundereds of miners working a mine they don't suddenly call it a copper farm. And now you're calling it a factory, so which is it, a mine, a farm, or a factory?Huh?

This is off topic, but I'll oblige... Cheesy

In the IT world, when you have a large operation of servers, it's called a server farm, so to me it seems fitting to call a large operation of mining hardware a mining farm or an ASIC farm. Not to be confused with agricultural "farming", a farm is just a big place/operation. There are solar farms too.

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January 03, 2015, 06:25:18 PM
 #38


In other words: slower transactions will cost more to send?

he talked about bitshares with 4-6 hours adjustement ... bitcoin would simply be sold off and abandoned if it came to that because 2016 blocks adjustement is two weeks - but only two weeks at normal blocktime. Get the spin?

Network would come to a halt most likely.

My question remains:
does any sudden and harsh drop in hashrate automatically cause this scenario to happen?

Is a single serious set-back in hashrate the end of BTC? Is it really that easy to knock out? OMFG!

What happens when a large pool with let's say 30% of the network has technical problems and just goes offline and hash isn't replaced fast enough? Bitcoin dead?

Looking for some answers here

The first question to ask is why would miners drop out?  That is what causes the drop in hashrate.  Miners are profit driven so it might seem reasonable to assume that a sudden drop in price would cause a bunch of miners to suddenly quit.  But keep in mind the price has been dropping throughout 2014 and did that cause a slowdown in mining?  No - just the opposite.  The hashrate continued to climb dramatically.  Now maybe a massive, sudden price crash could shake some miners loose.  Maybe. The other thing that could cause a massive drop in hashrate would be a shutdown of one or more mining farms due to disaster.  But consider the
massive mining farm fire a few months ago - how much did that affect hash rate?

But lets consider there is a sudden drop in hashrate - say 50%.  That means until the next difficulty calculation that blocks now take, on average, twice as long to confirm - or ~20 minutes.  Far from the "hours" discussed.  In fact, a 90% drop in hashrate would be on the order required, as this would make block take on average ~100 minutes, so it could take hours to get a confirmation.  But again, is that an expected drop?

And assume 50% of miners stopped mining - what about the remaining miners?  Well, if they decided to keep mining, the drop out of other miners would have zero affect on them.  Their hashrate and the difficulty remain unchanged, so their changes of finding a block are the same.  In fact, they get much better at the next difficulty calculation, so there is all the more incentive for them to keep mining (the sooner the difficulty changes, the sooner their share increases).  So if they didn't decide to leave for other reasons, other miners leaving wouldn't make them go,

So I don't think this is a concern.  Remember though that the point in time at which this happens matters.  It takes a full 2016-block cycle for difficulty to adjust, so it would be over two cycles before things settled down.  Of course, a random event would happen, on average, about half way through a block cycle, so the impact would be lessened that much sooner.

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January 03, 2015, 07:29:24 PM
 #39

happend with altcoins before. Since KGW is around doesn't happen anymore.
But Bitcoin doesn't have that.
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January 03, 2015, 08:23:50 PM
 #40

Doesn't matter, we don't need a high hash rate for Bitcoin to work correctly. A lot of people assume that Bitcoin needs a high hash rate in order to process a large number of transactions. But that is just wrong. The hash rate is totally irrelevant to the inner workings of Bitcoin.

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