Counter to "Why Bitcoin is dropping ...buying." AMA format / doomsday debunked

[NotLambchop]

When your landlord expects you to pay rent, do you call that theft?  If you don't want to pay taxes, GTFO & go and live under the sea or on the Moon.  Stop trying to freeload.

My landlord does not rob me and then grant me the privilege of living in my apartment.

As for me, I did GTFO.

No matter how you cut it, whatever goodies the government gives away, how much they spend on protection, free TVs, free health care...whatever, they take my money without my permission.

You can't talk about what the government provides until you address the part where they steal from people.

Theft is theft is theft, it doesn't change because of what happens afterwards.

The country where you live--it does not belong to you any more than your landlord's house does.  To live there, you play by the rules & pay taxes, or GTFO.
Calling taxes theft simply labels you as yet another batshit crazy--don't do it if you expect to be taken seriously.

[Elwar]

The country where you live--it does not belong to you any more than your landlord's house does.  To live there, you play by the rules & pay taxes, or GTFO.
Calling taxes theft simply labels you as yet another batshit crazy--don't do it if you expect to be taken seriously.

A government does not create land any more than you get your rights from a government. The government controls that land solely because they have the power to do so, and they get that power by stealing it from anyone they can take from and get away with it.

I do not live in the US or use government services but I am still required to pay medicare, social security and all income over $100k. There are several countries that run just fine without taxes but most people have been brainwashed to believe that is the only way a government can get its revenue. Just like many people likely believed that the only way cotton fields could be picked was through slavery. I am sure the slave masters made similar excuses about the land the slave lived on and the food they ate.

[Wekkel]

To live there, you play by the rules & pay taxes, or GTFO.

True Colors...

[NotLambchop]

The country where you live--it does not belong to you any more than your landlord's house does.  To live there, you play by the rules & pay taxes, or GTFO.
Calling taxes theft simply labels you as yet another batshit crazy--don't do it if you expect to be taken seriously.

A government does not create land any more than you get your rights from a government. The government controls that land solely because they have the power to do so, and they get that power by stealing it from anyone they can take from and get away with it.

I do not live in the US or use government services but I am still required to pay medicare, social security and all income over $100k. There are several countries that run just fine without taxes but most people have been brainwashed to believe that is the only way a government can get its revenue. Just like many people likely believed that the only way cotton fields could be picked was through slavery. I am sure the slave masters made similar excuses about the land the slave lived on and the food they ate.

If you give up US citizenship, you do not need to pay medicare or pay taxes.
You should feel free to move to one of the countries that "run just fine without taxes," no one's holding you back

@Wekkel:  You bet.  Tired of listening to grown adults acting like sullen, entitled teenage girls.  Man up and stop whining FFS.

[Wekkel]

@Wekkel:  You bet.  Tired of listening to grown adults acting like sullen, entitled teenage girls.  Man up and stop whining FFS.

One could also think further outside the box. A lot of people here try to do just that.

[NotLambchop]

@Wekkel:  You bet.  Tired of listening to grown adults acting like sullen, entitled teenage girls.  Man up and stop whining FFS.

One could also think further outside the box. A lot of people here try to do just that.

One can do many things, but people here aren't thinking outside the box, just in a different box.
The box you do your thinking in loves slinging cliche shit like "think outside the box."

[Elwar]

The country where you live--it does not belong to you any more than your landlord's house does.  To live there, you play by the rules & pay taxes, or GTFO.
Calling taxes theft simply labels you as yet another batshit crazy--don't do it if you expect to be taken seriously.

A government does not create land any more than you get your rights from a government. The government controls that land solely because they have the power to do so, and they get that power by stealing it from anyone they can take from and get away with it.

I do not live in the US or use government services but I am still required to pay medicare, social security and all income over $100k. There are several countries that run just fine without taxes but most people have been brainwashed to believe that is the only way a government can get its revenue. Just like many people likely believed that the only way cotton fields could be picked was through slavery. I am sure the slave masters made similar excuses about the land the slave lived on and the food they ate.

If you give up US citizenship, you do not need to pay medicare or pay taxes.
You should feel free to move to one of the countries that "run just fine without taxes," no one's holding you back

Yes, my plans are my plans. The slave was free to run to the north if they could as well. Doesn't make theft any less theft and slavery any less slavery.

[Wekkel]

One can do many things, but people here aren't thinking outside the box, just in a different box.
The box you do your thinking in loves slinging cliche shit like "think outside the box."

If that route is not open for you, wouldn't it be better to stick to posting nice pictures (much to my entertainment)?

[NotLambchop]

The country where you live--it does not belong to you any more than your landlord's house does.  To live there, you play by the rules & pay taxes, or GTFO.
Calling taxes theft simply labels you as yet another batshit crazy--don't do it if you expect to be taken seriously.

A government does not create land any more than you get your rights from a government. The government controls that land solely because they have the power to do so, and they get that power by stealing it from anyone they can take from and get away with it.

I do not live in the US or use government services but I am still required to pay medicare, social security and all income over $100k. There are several countries that run just fine without taxes but most people have been brainwashed to believe that is the only way a government can get its revenue. Just like many people likely believed that the only way cotton fields could be picked was through slavery. I am sure the slave masters made similar excuses about the land the slave lived on and the food they ate.

If you give up US citizenship, you do not need to pay medicare or pay taxes.
You should feel free to move to one of the countries that "run just fine without taxes," no one's holding you back

Yes, my plans are my plans. The slave was free to run to the north if they could as well. Doesn't make theft any less theft and slavery any less slavery.

You don't need to run, no one is holding you back.  You don't even need an exit visa.  I come from a place where one did.  My father was jailed for trying to leave.

@Wekkel:  Nothing would be easier for me than joining the chorus of entitled whiners on this forum.  Other than common sense, sanity, and self-respect.

[twiifm]

Poor logic buddy.  Debt isn't an asset.  Or perhaps you are claiming that we're close to the point where that debt will start deflating rapidly  

Oh boy. Where do I start!?

1. Depends which side you are on.
2. What is "global deleveraging" if not the rapid deflation of debt.

Specifically:

Fisher's formulation
In Fisher's formulation of debt deflation, when the debt bubble bursts the following sequence of events occurs:

Assuming, accordingly, that, at some point in time, a state of over-indebtedness exists, this will tend to lead to liquidation, through the alarm either of debtors or creditors or both. Then we may deduce the following chain of consequences in nine links:

Debt liquidation leads to distress selling and to
Contraction of deposit currency, as bank loans are paid off, and to a slowing down of velocity of circulation. This contraction of deposits and of their velocity, precipitated by distress selling, causes
A fall in the level of prices, in other words, a swelling of the dollar. Assuming, as above stated, that this fall of prices is not interfered with by reflation or otherwise, there must be
A still greater fall in the net worths of business, precipitating bankruptcies and
A like fall in profits, which in a "capitalistic," that is, a private-profit society, leads the concerns which are running at a loss to make
A reduction in output, in trade and in employment of labor. These losses, bankruptcies and unemployment, lead to
pessimism and loss of confidence, which in turn lead to
Hoarding and slowing down still more the velocity of circulation.
The above eight changes cause
Complicated disturbances in the rates of interest, in particular, a fall in the nominal, or money, rates and a rise in the real, or commodity, rates of interest.
—(Fisher 1933)

Except he posted a chart of PUBLIC debt.  Deleveraging happens on the PRIVATE side!

[sgbett]

Except he posted a chart of PUBLIC debt.  Deleveraging happens on the PRIVATE side!

deleveraging doesn't pick sides. debt can be deleveraged, public or private. isn't that the point - that the deleveraging of public debt by governments has pretty serious ramifications?

from the deleveraging link above...

At the micro-economic level, deleveraging refers to the reduction of the leverage ratio, or the percentage of debt in the balance sheet of a single economic entity, such as a household or a firm. It is the opposite of leveraging, which is the practice of borrowing money to acquire assets and multiply gains and losses.

At the macro-economic level, deleveraging of an economy refers to the simultaneous reduction of debt levels in multiple sectors, including private sectors and the government sector. It is usually measured as a decline of the total debt to GDP ratio in the national account. The deleveraging of an economy following a financial crisis has significant macro-economic consequences and is often associated with severe recessions.

[harposox]

Alright, why does any country that attempts to sell oil for anything but USD get bombed back into the stone age?

I'm not familiar with any countries that this happened to? Countries are free to transact in any fx they like. They choose the USD because of reasons posted in my previous post. Mainly, it's stable and widely accepted.

LOL. Childish nonsense. Look at the countries that the United States has wrecked in the immediate past (Iraq, Libya), and is currently rattling its sword against in one form or another (Iran, Syria, Russia, China, Venezuela). All have either attempted to start their own oil bourses, or have threatened to begin transacting for oil in other currencies. The only exception to this rule in recent history is Afghanistan, which is not a major oil consumer/producer, and was invaded for other geopolitical/strategic/economic reasons.

Military might and nuclear arsenal aside, the petrodollar is the engine of America's global economic domination. It essentially creates an endless loop of demand for U.S. dollars and U.S. debt, which allows the United States to print money endlessly, export its inflation abroad, and smash foreign economies on a whim by tinkering with oil prices, interest rates, and the overall U.S. money supply. Foreign countries, with no other choice but to obtain U.S. dollars in order to purchase the world's most precious commodity (oil), are forced to play this hopelessly rigged game.

[twiifm]

Except he posted a chart of PUBLIC debt.  Deleveraging happens on the PRIVATE side!

deleveraging doesn't pick sides. debt can be deleveraged, public or private. isn't that the point - that the deleveraging of public debt by governments has pretty serious ramifications?

from the deleveraging link above...

At the micro-economic level, deleveraging refers to the reduction of the leverage ratio, or the percentage of debt in the balance sheet of a single economic entity, such as a household or a firm. It is the opposite of leveraging, which is the practice of borrowing money to acquire assets and multiply gains and losses.

At the macro-economic level, deleveraging of an economy refers to the simultaneous reduction of debt levels in multiple sectors, including private sectors and the government sector. It is usually measured as a decline of the total debt to GDP ratio in the national account. The deleveraging of an economy following a financial crisis has significant macro-economic consequences and is often associated with severe recessions.

Umm.  Your linked article says "simultaneous".  The chart he posted shows inflating debt.

Anyways, what is your point? You want the gov't to pay down debt or not?

His point was trying to compare debt bubble to asset bubble.  Not the same at all

[sgbett]

Except he posted a chart of PUBLIC debt.  Deleveraging happens on the PRIVATE side!

deleveraging doesn't pick sides. debt can be deleveraged, public or private. isn't that the point - that the deleveraging of public debt by governments has pretty serious ramifications?

from the deleveraging link above...

At the micro-economic level, deleveraging refers to the reduction of the leverage ratio, or the percentage of debt in the balance sheet of a single economic entity, such as a household or a firm. It is the opposite of leveraging, which is the practice of borrowing money to acquire assets and multiply gains and losses.

At the macro-economic level, deleveraging of an economy refers to the simultaneous reduction of debt levels in multiple sectors, including private sectors and the government sector. It is usually measured as a decline of the total debt to GDP ratio in the national account. The deleveraging of an economy following a financial crisis has significant macro-economic consequences and is often associated with severe recessions.

Make up your mind man.  You want the gov't to pay down debt or not?

I don't care what they do just pointing out that one way or another the piper gets paid!

[B.A.S.]

As long as the rest of the world believes that our government can tax citizens and pay interest on its debt, the international community will have a demand for dollars.  Demand for dollars is not only buying and selling of goods - most of the time it is transfer of US Treasurys, which act as cash equivalents.  So if people think they will get paid back on their UST, they will have no problem dealing with the US and holding our debt.  And this payments, we agree, will always be made.

And here is the problem. There are growing indications that the rest of the world does not think that, and other powerful countires (notably China) are trying to move away from the US dollar as a reserve currency. This is not unexpected - no currency has remained a reserve currency for much more than a century - and it's certainly not going to come without warning, but it's definitely going undermine the value of the US dollar and radically impact the US economy. Will there be a recession? Very probably. Will the US recover? Again, probably. Will there be an apocolypse? Highly doubtful.

It's actually not a problem at all.  Those countries have their own agendas and reasons for doing deals which are political in nature.  China and Russia doing deals on the side means nothing when the rest of the world is not following suit.  If you want to see if people believe in the ability of the US to tax, look at the USD at ten year highs, look at US Treasury yields approaching multi-decade lows.. your assertion that people are losing faith is based on no facts, you are ignoring all the evidence to the contrary.  Let's just say you are right and the US loses it's status.. who is it going to go to?  China with their fabricated economy that no one has faith in?  Or Europe which is teetering on collapse?  There is no one else.  Full stop.  Period.  Besides even if it does happen, that is not a kiss of death.  Great Britain was just fine after they lost reserve status, their economy did not collapse and the world kept spinning.  I'll tell you one thing, it sure as heck won't be Russia or Brazil or China accepting BTC for their goods and services.

Let's step back and ignore what the market is telling you and also put aside our theories for a second and think:  why on Earth would the US all of a sudden not be able to tax its citizens and pay interest on its debt?  That is the fundamental question.  We have a powerful military to protect us, we have one of the best economies in the world and we have the best legal system in the world.  There are no rational or logical reasons to think that the US is on the decline or the dollar is doomed or anything close to that.  And looking at interest rates and FX strength you can see the world does agree with that statement.

 Man oh man. You need to get your arguments squared away and correct guy.

1. China's economy is not fabricated. It is quite the opposite; it is predicted to become the largest economy in the world in the coming years. This is mirrored by India's sentiment on China's Silk Road Initiatives of 2014. India is worried because China has an increasingly large slice of the Indo-Pacific corridor. Couple this with DPRK ties, the Russian-China oil pipeline proposals and major infrastructure ties with large African nation governments and you will quickly see China is not some joke.

2. Europe isn't teetering on collapse. The European Union Commissions latest report out in autumn of last year indicated all EU countries were set for growth through fiscal years 2015-16. Historic government deficients are being refinanced and paid due to strengthened economic activity.

3. Great Britain was NOT fine after losing reserve status with the Sterling. Since the early 1900s, the Pound has been decreasing. Since the 1950s after the end of WWII, the pound has been devalued by HALF in comparison to the USD.

4. China will happily take BTC or a regulated, world approved digital currency for their goods and services. What they want to make sure of is that Chinese money is primarily spent in the Chinese economy and that when it comes to foreign affairs, they get their fair shake with the debt they are holding on behalf of others.

5. The US won't be able to tax its citizens the amount necessary to make the debt interest payments one day in the future. We can only tax so many unborn future citizens (this is a disgusting concept that is mostly true). The government cannot infinitely raise tax burdens on the public without them getting angry. See any history textbook for prime examples. It's a fine line to walk.

6. Having the best legal system has nothing to do with America being in the shitter. Having the best military has nothing to do with it either, but I'll let you rationally decide which one gets the money and which doesn't. Military spending/strength has always been an economic indicator.

7. Stop thinking so small and US-centric. Interest rates and currency strength are proxies for everything else.

For a guy that claims to be in the financial industry, reading your posts makes me think you're a teller who has sat in on a few loan officer meetings. I don't want to take away from this thread, I like your ideas and for facilitating a discussion, just don't parrot things. The world is much larger than the US and on the contrary, many countries are superior to the US in many ways.

[twiifm]

Europe isn't teetering on collapse but Euro might need to be broken up and return to national currencies

Great Britain went through ups and downs after international trade moved away from Pound Sterling as a reserve currency.  But as evidenced today UK is still powerful economy.

If your debt is denominated in your own currency,  you have no risk for default.  Not saying its good.  Just the risk for default isnt there.

[Erdogan]

1 What effect has the recent years of central bank commanded low interest rate had on the physical capital structure in the US and in the world?

2 Do you think that the current oil glut has something to do with the low interest rate?

[Foxpup]

Man oh man. You need to get your arguments squared away and correct guy.

...

For a guy that claims to be in the financial industry, reading your posts makes me think you're a teller who has sat in on a few loan officer meetings. I don't want to take away from this thread, I like your ideas and for facilitating a discussion, just don't parrot things. The world is much larger than the US and on the contrary, many countries are superior to the US in many ways.

I mean come on. China, a fabricated economy? I'm an Australian, and I know that China is by far Australia's largest trading partner (both imports and exports). Unless Australia's economy is fabricated too, you've got some explaining to do.

[dinofelis]

Taxation is no more theft than Bitcoin is child pornography

Consider this:

1) someone with a gun puts that gun against your head and tells you to pay them half of your income.
2) ten strong guys put you in a cage and tell you they will let you out if you give them half of your income.
3) ten strong guys put you in a cage, and tell you they will let you out if you buy for half of your income, beany babies.
4) ten strong guys put you in a cage, and tell you they will let you out if you pay them half of your income, and then they will make sure that no other guys will put you in a cage again.
5) the gouvernment will put you in a cage unless you pay them half of your income, and in return they will make sure that nobody else will put you in a cage.  On top of that, you get a museum of modern art for it which you can then visit by paying an entrance ticket.

Where's the difference ?

[NotLambchop]

Taxation is no more theft than Bitcoin is child pornography

Consider this:

1) someone with a gun puts that gun against your head and tells you to pay them half of your income.
2) ten strong guys put you in a cage and tell you they will let you out if you give them half of your income.
3) ten strong guys put you in a cage, and tell you they will let you out if you buy for half of your income, beany babies.
4) ten strong guys put you in a cage, and tell you they will let you out if you pay them half of your income, and then they will make sure that no other guys will put you in a cage again.
5) the gouvernment will put you in a cage unless you pay them half of your income, and in return they will make sure that nobody else will put you in a cage.  On top of that, you get a museum of modern art for it which you can then visit by paying an entrance ticket.

Where's the difference ?

Hello my born-again libertarian friend!  And what a purty hobby horse it is you're riding today, never seen one quite like it before, such original, very wow!

1-4:  The reason it doesn't happen is I live in a country where there are laws, and enough muscle to enforce those laws in a meaningful way.  Those musclebound jackbooted thugs work up a big appetite, so some of my taxes go towards buying them fresh children to eat.
Good things cost money.

5.  Yes, as far as making sure that no one else does, WWII certainly comes to mind.  Of course, a privately funded militia of sulky middle-aged libers would have done the job far better, cheaper, and in half the time  ...wait, aren't you French?  Nevermind then, disregard.