Do you think Bitcoin should modify to POW + POS ? █████ Poll █████

[onemorebtc]

i just dont think any pos system offers the same security as pow does.

What makes you think this?

1) security experts telling this (yes, i know there are people knowing more than me)

2) it sounds unreasonable to make a system that could secure itself.

3) its not proven. the principles btc is build upon are old and well studied. its easy to understand the security implications. thats not the case with pos

4) i strongly believe in the argument that you need an external pysical property (like time with btc) to prove consensus

[Daedelus]

or some research papers like:

Nxt forging algorithm: simulating approach (Oct 2014)
http://www.scribd.com/doc/243341106/nxtforging-1 (scroll down to read)

PoS forging algorithms: formal approach and multibranch forging (Nov 2014)
https://nxtforum.org/consensus-research/multibranch-forging-approach/
(https://www.scribd.com/doc/248208963/Multibranch-forging)

PoS forging algorithms: multi-strategy forging and related security issues (Dec 2014)
https://github.com/ConsensusResearch/articles-papers/blob/master/multistrategy/multistrategy.pdf

Simulation Tools for Forging Algorithms
https://github.com/ConsensusResearch/

[Daedelus]

So we have arguments from authority and strong beliefs.

[Flashman]

Wait what? proven broken vs not broken yet, is not an argument for security? So you will choose the proven broken, vs the not yet broken? You will choose an already cracked ecryption algo, over AES-256?

So now you say your leg is proven broken, you think the rot has set in, it could be gangrenous and you're worrying about the leech on it instead of cutting the damn thing off already?

[inBitweTrust]

So we have arguments from authority and strong beliefs.

There is good evidence to support both security models as evidenced through testing and research analysis. We don't have enough data to make conclusive statments at this time. Anyone that is suggesting that PoS/DPoS is more secure than Bitcoins PoW is making an assumption and ignoring any countering evidence.


https://blog.ethereum.org/

or some research papers like:
https://tel.archives-ouvertes.fr/halshs-00945053/document

[onemorebtc]

So we have arguments from authority and strong beliefs.

add tested...
if a pos system runs a few years with the same marketcap as btc i might change my mind.

but yes it boils down to strong believe and authority. but the same is true for pos

(its a little more than strong believe as i studied sha256 myself and mined by hand to be sure - thats what i meant with its easy to understand)

[Daedelus]

So we have arguments from authority and strong beliefs.

There is good evidence to support both security models as evidenced through testing and research analysis. We don't have enough data to make conclusive statments at this time. Anyone that is suggesting that PoS/DPoS is more secure than Bitcoins PoW is making an assumption and ignoring any countering evidence.


https://blog.ethereum.org/

or some research papers like:
https://tel.archives-ouvertes.fr/halshs-00945053/document

These are opinion. Don't forget: https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/pos.pdf

Jonald and another said/think POS isn't secure. I have made no comment on POW. Where is the proof POS is insecure that isn't argument from authority or strong belief?

[Flashman]

if a pos system runs a few years with the same marketcap as btc i might change my mind.

That is my big reservation, that the market for current PoS coins is so thin and fragile that any serious attempt at attacking them would leave you owning a bunch of nothing, so why bother? It's like trying to steal paper money by burning the bank down.

[Daedelus]

if a pos system runs a few years with the same marketcap as btc i might change my mind.

That is my big reservation, that the market for current PoS coins is so thin and fragile that any serious attempt at attacking them would leave you owning a bunch of nothing, so why bother? It's like trying to steal paper money by burning the bank down.

But you would prove they are insecure. That would be worth much more.

[inBitweTrust]

These are opinion. Don't forget: https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/pos.pdf

Jonald and another said/think POS isn't secure. I have made no comment on POW. Where is the proof POS is insecure that isn't argument from authority or strong belief?

Yes, opinions from security analysis and experts which is based upon reason , logic and evidence. These experts create models and run mathematical simulations to test their hypothesis.. but i guess to you one opinion is as good as anothers.

[onemorebtc]

But you would prove they are insecure. That would be worth much more.

no... if i would knew a way i would wait until the liquidity is high enough to enable me cashout an high enough amount.

...most thieves cannot cashout immeditaly. they have to wait (maybe with a pos annon coin this will change, dont know if there is one)

edit: changed on word and added last sentence

[Daedelus]

These are opinion. Don't forget: https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/pos.pdf

Jonald and another said/think POS isn't secure. I have made no comment on POW. Where is the proof POS is insecure that isn't argument from authority or strong belief?

Yes, opinions from security analysis and experts which is based upon reason , logic and evidence. These experts create models and run mathematical simulations to test their hypothesis.. but i guess to you one opinion is as good as anothers.

Where are the models?

I posted the POS models that back those papers above. You can repeat and verify the results, if you were so inclined.

[Daedelus]

But you would prove they are insecure. That would be worth much more.

no... if i would knew a way i would way until the liquidity is high enough to enable me cashout an high enough amount

If you destroy the POS idea, money is likely to flow into back to bitcoin as they all die, no?

[inBitweTrust]

These are opinion. Don't forget: https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/pos.pdf

Jonald and another said/think POS isn't secure. I have made no comment on POW. Where is the proof POS is insecure that isn't argument from authority or strong belief?

Yes, opinions from security analysis and experts which is based upon reason , logic and evidence. These experts create models and run mathematical simulations to test their hypothesis.. but i guess to you one opinion is as good as anothers.

Where are the models?

I posted the POS models that back those papers above. You can repeat and verify the results, if you were so inclined.

I gave you the links with both references and direct research if you were so inclined to read it.

https://blog.ethereum.org/

or some research papers like:
https://tel.archives-ouvertes.fr/halshs-00945053/document
https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/pos.pdf

[onemorebtc]

btw: please just do it!
just fork bitcoin add pos to it and initialize it with current balances. you have the opportunity to even reduce blockchain size.

this doesnt change the fact that i'd sell my posbtc. but why not just do it and let the hole btc community vote what they want to use?

whatever and whoever will make this change: the effect will be the same.

btw or just use clam. they did this....

[Daedelus]

These are opinion. Don't forget: https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/pos.pdf

Jonald and another said/think POS isn't secure. I have made no comment on POW. Where is the proof POS is insecure that isn't argument from authority or strong belief?

Yes, opinions from security analysis and experts which is based upon reason , logic and evidence. These experts create models and run mathematical simulations to test their hypothesis.. but i guess to you one opinion is as good as anothers.

Where are the models?

I posted the POS models that back those papers above. You can repeat and verify the results, if you were so inclined.

I gave you the links with both references and direct research if you were so inclined to read it.

https://blog.ethereum.org/

or some research papers like:
https://tel.archives-ouvertes.fr/halshs-00945053/document
https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/pos.pdf

Where are the models? Or is it just their opinion?

[Bitcoin Wiki, 2014] Bitcoin Wiki "Proof of Stake" page.
https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Proof of Stake. Retrieved on 02/05/2014.
[Eyal and Sirer, 2013] Eyal I. and Sirer E.G. (2013) "Majority is not enough: Bitcoin mining
is vulnerable", arXiv: 1311.0243.
[Kroll et al., 2013] Kroll J.A., Davey I.C. and Felten E.W. (2013) "The economics of Bitcoin
mining, or Bitcoin in the presence of adversaries", Mimeo.
[Krugman, 2013] Krugman P. (2013) "Adam Smith hates Bitcoin". NYTimes blog.
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/04/12/adam-smith-hates-bitcoin/
[Nakamoto, 2008] Nakamoto S. (2009) "Bitcoin: A peer-to-peer electronic cash system".

For the sake of simplicity and with a slight lack of rigor...

With a simple (one could say simplistic) model...

The idea is to bluff to scare people into selling for nothing... there is a reason this paper didn't gain any traction.



Geoff's pos.pdf paper even admits that there is no rigour in his claim.

Is it possible to obtain a distributed consensus without provably consuming some resource
outside of the system?
Intuitively, the answer is no, but there is no rigorous argument for this claim.

Intuitively, the sun goes around the earth. You can even watch it happening..



Vitalik has discussed Nxt's POS algo with the devs on nxtforum.org and was satisfied that it was adequate. He thought he could improve it but he would wouldn't he..  

[inBitweTrust]

btw: please just do it!
just fork bitcoin add pos to it and initialize it with current balances. you have the opportunity to even reduce blockchain size.

this doesnt change the fact that i'd sell my posbtc. but why not just do it and let the hole btc community vote what they want to use?

whatever and whoever will make this change: the effect will be the same.

btw or just use clam. they did this....

They won't because either they want others to do the heavy lifting for them or they aren't really interested in bitcoin anyways and this is just an indirect way to plug their project..

FYI... both NXT and Bitshares are losing ground to bitcoin and weakening during the last 6 months so they are getting more desperate.

[Daedelus]

(I will check in again later)

[jonald_fyookball]

PoW mining was useful for a time

Why are you against mining and Pow anyway?

[inBitweTrust]

Vitalik has discussed Nxt's POS algo with the devs on nxtforum.org and was satisfied that it was adequate. He thought he could improve it but he would wouldn't he..  

Vitalik still went with PoW despite the wastefulness and all the research into TaPoS and weak subjectivity. Why is that ?

You need to understand that I have a nuanced position and think there are both strengths and weaknesses on both sides.