Cointerra is dead

[MrTeal]

“There is irrational mining going on in some parts of the world that defies ROI (return on investment),” he added. “People are mining when they are not making a profit. There are other factors in place. Perhaps it’s unfair access to power. As a result, the models we all assumed have collapsed.”

tl;dr: People have access to lower cost power and are willing to run on thinner margins. It's not fair.

[iCEBREAKER]

Cointerra was no longer profitable months ago with there cloud mining operation, and instead of paying their accounts, or saying "hey we can't cover this bill" they stayed silent.  In the meantime, they continued to profit from the operation (withholding payment to C7), they probably didn't pay themselves anything different, but chose to pay certain creditors, while not paying the data center.  In the mean time, C7 had a huge bill for JUST the electricity alone, that they paid piling up (a line of credit - that the DC didn't offer) - after 60 days of paying Cointerra's power bill, they finally shut them down.

Cointerra never evolved there equipment to a more profitable design, and because of this, were never able to compete with other miners operating at .65j/gh.  Operating at nearly 1.3+j/gh, and twice the hosting costs, means over 1/4th as profitable, in an operation that was too expensive in the first place.  $101-$105 per KW, is too much for a large scale operation with needed support. Its why I never liked Cointerra, gear they never even made an effective 28nm let alone 20nm chipset, they continued to produce units designed in December of 2014 with an older chipset.

Had they replaced old equipment with new gear, they could have been profitable (twice the hash-rate) for the same space / price, and liquidated there equipment at a reasonable cost, not the ridiculous costs they wanted for those units on there website.  They knew they were screwed (unless bitcoin price doubled) yet they continued to gamble with someones else money (C7 the datacenter) - making them pay the bill.

This is why customers we take on pay a 1 months security deposit, then pay month to month.  The one month is so if they don't pay there bill, and we shut them down for being 2 weeks late, we're not out any money other than having space available.

"Cointerra was no longer profitable...they continued to profit"

Umm, could you make up your mind about whether or not CT was profitable?  And whether or not you are ignoring me...  

If the price of BTC had gone back up, CT would have been able to pay C7, etc.  But that was a risk both businesses were willing to take.  Adults understand risk doesn't always produce reward, and don't indulge in personalizing the outcome by retroactively assigning criminal motivations.

[sidehack]

"Cointerra was no longer profitable...they continued to profit"

If you actually pay attention to the context instead of isolating seemingly contradictory phrases, he's saying "Cointerra was no longer profitable [if they were paying their bills] ...they continued to profit [by paying themselves instead of covering owed debt]". Any business model with a revenue stream can be "profitable" if you don't pay the associated debts.

[SEGMining]

They inquired with us about a large scale hosting project in early November.  I mentioned a downpayment and the email chain ended.

[MichaelNZ]

They inquired with us about a large scale hosting project in early November.  I mentioned a downpayment and the email chain ended.

Do you know if that was a new hosting project using new hardware or a relocation of existing servers ?

[SEGMining]

They inquired with us about a large scale hosting project in early November.  I mentioned a downpayment and the email chain ended.

Do you know if that was a new hosting project using new hardware or a relocation of existing servers ?

Terraminer IVs from my understanding.  Whether they were new, old or what, I have no idea.

To be fair, it started out as an inquiry on whether or not we could handle 100-150 units.  Then it turned into a conversation about building a new datacenter that could house up to 5mW worth of their hardware.

[Zelek Uther]

They inquired with us about a large scale hosting project in early November.  I mentioned a downpayment and the email chain ended.

That speaks volumes. I believe they were specifically  looking for a hosting provider that didn't require a deposit. That way they could not pay their bills for a period of time at the end and effectively mine with free electricity for a while  (like 60 days). They wouldn't care if the hardware was forfeit, 60 days free mining is worth more than those old Terraminer IV units will fetch second-hand (plus the cost and hassle of selling them, shipping them out, dealing with returns, customer support etc).

Cointerra also raised money in a pre-order for a 16nm product... who knows whether they ever actually intended to manufacture it or not? The cynics amongst us suspect it was just another cash-grab before the company went under.

[noddy2000]

Aerobatic where are you?  I thought you were hired to do PR / CS on the forums for CT and you had LOTS of money involved with them among other ASIC companies.

Where has the best company gone?

im still here.  i wasnt and have never been hired by cointerra.  i was an angel investor (and advisor).  i live in the UK.

i lose if they die - i invested cash along with the other angel investors.  it was a big deal for me.  clearly, i hope they survive.

ive not heard anything first hand.  what ive read here is all that i know, and its hard to know whats really going on from what little info ive seen.

i was not a part of the more recent financing (secured debt), but obviously, senior debt-holders are a priority over 'regular' investors like me, and the other shareholders.  its up to the debt-holders to decide what the company can do now, and whether it can continue to trade or be restructured in some way.

if a company gets into a financial difficulty, i believe the order of priority for who gets paid back are:   senior debt holders, debtors, employees, customers, and finally investors...  

with the price of bitcoin where it is, the market for bitcoin mining is almost non existent and its unprofitable to mine when your costs are in dollars.   if cointerra dies it wont be the first, nor the last mining company to do so.  hope it doesnt die, cos it cost me (and others) a lot!

This is bullshit! Come on people. Wake the fuck up. 80% or more of people involved in btc are scum! At least realise that will you! Cointerra, knc, bfl, amt, black arrow to name a few!  All same tricks and cons! Been sayingg this for years but no one listens!

[noddy2000]

Personally I think what cointerra did was shady as crap to the C7...  The knew they weren't going to pay, and let the DC provide them power for 2 months for free and collect profits.

there's two sides to every story.  I'm sure we will hear more about this.

Suppose he supports bfl as well hey! Jump off a cliff and die youth!

[Swimmer63]

Personally I think what cointerra did was shady as crap to the C7...  The knew they weren't going to pay, and let the DC provide them power for 2 months for free and collect profits.

there's two sides to every story.  I'm sure we will hear more about this.

Suppose he supports bfl as well hey! Jump off a cliff and die youth!

If only I had listened to you all these years.
Another for my ignore button. Two in one week. That's a pr.

[sidehack]

Hard to say years' worth of anything with a two-month-old account.

Optimistically, CoinTerra was hoping for a miracle that would allow them to pay the overdue bills and keep moving forward with 16nm dev and other projects. Pessimistically, they cashed out every revenue stream they could find and started booking flights to non-extradition countries with suitcases full of money. Realistically, probably somewhere in between. I'd say "let the courts figure it out" but didn't the courts just recently rule BFL offically "not a scam" and put them back in business?

[noddy2000]

Personally I think what cointerra did was shady as crap to the C7...  The knew they weren't going to pay, and let the DC provide them power for 2 months for free and collect profits.

there's two sides to every story.  I'm sure we will hear more about this.

Suppose he supports bfl as well hey! Jump off a cliff and die youth!

If only I had listened to you all these years.
Another for my ignore button. Two in one week. That's a pr.

So your saying I was wrong! Add me on ignored, your loss!

[dogie]

If there was any real work behind the 16nm chip they can sell the design to someone.  That's a big if though.
They would have had to at least pretend like they were moving ahead with the latest designs to appear relevant at all.

Its an unproven design at this stage though, so most companies would rather use their own work / info / preference in design when they're risking $1-5M. Even if it looks better.

Do you have a lot of insight into the design or where they were with it, or is it just speculation on your part?

Speculation based on the timelines published. It would have still been a simulation at this point.

[iCEBREAKER]

Hard to say years' worth of anything with a two-month-old account.

Optimistically, CoinTerra was hoping for a miracle that would allow them to pay the overdue bills and keep moving forward with 16nm dev and other projects. Pessimistically, they cashed out every revenue stream they could find and started booking flights to non-extradition countries with suitcases full of money. Realistically, probably somewhere in between. I'd say "let the courts figure it out" but didn't the courts just recently rule BFL offically "not a scam" and put them back in business?

Late or not, a "scam" doesn't create a 28nm ASIC and (eventually) ship the product ordered.

Cointerra acted in good faith and is not responsible, legally or ethically, for adverse business conditions such as a crashing BTC price.  You don't get to retroactively assign malfeasance based solely on ex post facto factors the business has no control over.  That's not how it works.

If you can't tell the difference between a "scam" and an unsuccessful firm/investment, you are either very young and inexperienced or incredibly stupid.

Aerobatic will tell you the same thing, albeit in more polite/less direct (AKA patronizing) words, such as

https://www.wordnik.com/words/caveat%20emptor

[Syke]

This user is currently ignored.

Oh, look, icebreaker again. Let me guess, he's coming to the defense of CT. Icebreaker, defender of all the failed miners. Who's next on your list? Going to go defend BlackArrow next?

[iCEBREAKER]

Oh, look, icebreaker again. Let me guess, he's coming to the defense of CT. Icebreaker, defender of all the failed miners. Who's next on your list? Going to go defend BlackArrow next?

Oh good, it's a member of my fan club!   

Since I've never defended BlackArrow (or Bitmine, or BFL), what are we to make of your claim that I am a "defender of all the failed miners?"

How convenient for you to put words in my mouth, and ignore my actual statements.

We all know why you prefer to personalize the discussion rather than debate the relevant interplay of risk, reward, and business conditions in the BTC ASIC sector.

The puerile attempts to heap undeserved blame and scorn on honest ASIC vendors, in order to absolve customers of responsibility for making risky investments, are getting old.

[Unacceptable]

Oh, look, icebreaker again. Let me guess, he's coming to the defense of CT. Icebreaker, defender of all the failed miners. Who's next on your list? Going to go defend BlackArrow next?

Oh good, it's a member of my fan club!   

Since I've never defended BlackArrow (or Bitmine, or BFL), what are we to make of your claim that I am a "defender of all the failed miners?"

How convenient for you to put words in my mouth, and ignore my actual statements.

We all know why you prefer to personalize the discussion rather than debate the relevant interplay of risk, reward, and business conditions in the BTC ASIC sector.

The puerile attempts to heap undeserved blame and scorn on honest ASIC vendors, in order to absolve customers of responsibility for making risky investments, are getting old.

Your right,fuckin customers that expect ANYTHING are to blame,dirty greedy customers!!!!!!!!

 

[iCEBREAKER]

Oh, look, icebreaker again. Let me guess, he's coming to the defense of CT. Icebreaker, defender of all the failed miners. Who's next on your list? Going to go defend BlackArrow next?

Oh good, it's a member of my fan club!   

Since I've never defended BlackArrow (or Bitmine, or BFL), what are we to make of your claim that I am a "defender of all the failed miners?"

How convenient for you to put words in my mouth, and ignore my actual statements.

We all know why you prefer to personalize the discussion rather than debate the relevant interplay of risk, reward, and business conditions in the BTC ASIC sector.

The puerile attempts to heap undeserved blame and scorn on honest ASIC vendors, in order to absolve customers of responsibility for making risky investments, are getting old.

Your right,fuckin customers that expect ANYTHING are to blame,dirty greedy customers!!!!!!!!

 

Yes, that's LITERALLY EXACTLY what I said!
 

[noddy2000]

Oh, look, icebreaker again. Let me guess, he's coming to the defense of CT. Icebreaker, defender of all the failed miners. Who's next on your list? Going to go defend BlackArrow next?

Oh good, it's a member of my fan club!   

Since I've never defended BlackArrow (or Bitmine, or BFL), what are we to make of your claim that I am a "defender of all the failed miners?"

How convenient for you to put words in my mouth, and ignore my actual statements.

We all know why you prefer to personalize the discussion rather than debate the relevant interplay of risk, reward, and business conditions in the BTC ASIC sector.

The puerile attempts to heap undeserved blame and scorn on honest ASIC vendors, in order to absolve customers of responsibility for making risky investments, are getting old.

Your right,fuckin customers that expect ANYTHING are to blame,dirty greedy customers!!!!!!!!

 

Yes, that's LITERALLY EXACTLY what I said!
 

Are you a mason? Kiddy fiddler? Or just that dumb you would defend the royal families of the world as well as the Vatican? Lol

Seriously dude. There's 2 companies to trust in this industry and they are both chineese. Says all you need to now about the west! Greed! Just pure greed which makes these scammers. They had a plan from the start. Period. Anyone who as worked in large companies are polluted. I'm just watching a company fall to pieces in 6 months because of a new gm that game from amazon. Less than 6 months and he's killed it infact. Can't say who but they deal with mobiles in the UK and do work for all the companies over here. Destroyed from the inside.

Theirs a bigger picture that you refuse to see. I suppose you think Ross albricht should rot in jail and you miss the point that this is about your right to free speech/internet freedom etc etc.

So many blind people who don't want to get their heads out of the sand and see reality. Yes, its fucking ugly but at least its real! Knowing is the first step!

[klintay]

RIP scum bags