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wang_yan
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January 12, 2015, 08:26:15 AM
 #181

http://qntra.net/2015/01/the-hard-fork-missile-crisis/

"... Today Gavin posted on his personal blog an article titled "Looking before the Scaling Up Leap", stating "My goal is to prove that it is safe to raise the maximum block size from 1MB to at least 20MB" along with "I'll argue we should schedule a hard fork." Reddit soon blindly praised Gavin for his work, with comments such as "Fork it hard."

It appears as if Gavin will not give up unless his hard fork is a reality, and thus Mircea Popescu has made a declaration of war if Gavin proceeds with his plans. ..."

http://trilema.com/2015/if-you-go-on-a-bitcoin-fork-irrespective-which-scammer-proposes-it-you-will-lose-your-bitcoins/

"... To make it perfectly clear : in no case will MPEx accept this fake Bitcoin, as it's not accepted any other fake Bitcoin to date, and for the exact reasons. Moreover, my budget to sink this scam exceeds the budget of everyone involved on the supporting side.vi That is all. ..."

So, Gavin, do you really want to lose little people their coins? Or could you just let it drop?

A fork, no matter hard or soft, would not be successful without >95% of miner's support. If Gavin's fork is really supported by 95% of miners, good luck to the 5% and MPEx: they will have a block every 200 minutes for 280 days, followed by a block every 50 minutes for 70 days, until they get back to normal speed.

But actually, block size could be increased without hardfork: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=283746.0 . It's just a bit cumbersome

I vote for this.

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January 12, 2015, 11:54:08 AM
 #182

It's good that we already had that unpreapared fork incident during 2013 so that we know more or less what will happen during such a scenario

The biggest limiting factor is network broadcasting time, with 1MB block it takes 1-2 minutes to broadcast the block to majority of the nodes. With 5MB block it will take almost 10 minutes to reach the far end of the network, which essentially segmented the whole network. Unless the average nodes have 1GB connection to internet, this is not going to work

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January 12, 2015, 11:59:31 AM
 #183

There should be a small fork before the next block reward halving, maybe raise the size limit to 1.5MB just to hold the hands of the crybabies. Then after the halving, raise it to 25MB. I don't understand the reluctance of upgrading. When Bitcoin came out most people were still using Windows XP. All they're doing is changing a number FFS!

Just as much trouble to fork it for lower amount. That's why 20MB now and not just doubling or tripling it. Besides, miners choose how bigger block to make, and it's a small disadvantage to be making blocks very much bigger than anyone else (extra milliseconds to put all the tx together) so there has been a constant game of chicken on block sizes, keeping blocks near to capacity and edging up the size, now it's got to the full 1MB and miners cannot improve capacity without code change.

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January 12, 2015, 12:42:56 PM
 #184

There should be a small fork before the next block reward halving, maybe raise the size limit to 1.5MB just to hold the hands of the crybabies. Then after the halving, raise it to 25MB. I don't understand the reluctance of upgrading. When Bitcoin came out most people were still using Windows XP. All they're doing is changing a number FFS!
Exactly. This doesn't harm Bitcoin in any way.
Imagine if the 1MB limit was never documented but was there, would you know about it and/or care? No.

It's not like they are changing the daily supply or anything, numbers, that actually matter.

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January 12, 2015, 12:51:16 PM
 #185

The fork will not happen without miners' explicitly signaling consensus by updating the version number in the blocks they create.

But a miner can rollback to running a node that does not implement the hard-fork in just seconds, should there be any doubt that the hard fork might not succeed.  So just like in March 2013 when v0.8 blocks were ahead by a wide margin that didn't mean that side would ultimately continue as the longest chain.

Firstly it assumes that miners are driven to much by economics and to little by politics than is probably true.  I'm sure that most of the miners who count these days have every likelihoods of looking out days or weeks into the future and taking a monetary hit for a future enduring reward.

If that were true, p2Pool would be among the top 3.
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January 12, 2015, 01:00:42 PM
 #186

If that were true, p2Pool would be among the top 3.

p2pool is self limiting, it gets too big, the smaller miners have a rough ride, drop off, therefore it will grow only about same rate as ASIC density. Plus it's more bandwidth intensive than any other mining method and running a node needs non-trivial hardware.

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January 12, 2015, 01:14:10 PM
 #187

The fork will not happen without miners' explicitly signaling consensus by updating the version number in the blocks they create.

But a miner can rollback to running a node that does not implement the hard-fork in just seconds, should there be any doubt that the hard fork might not succeed.  So just like in March 2013 when v0.8 blocks were ahead by a wide margin that didn't mean that side would ultimately continue as the longest chain.

Firstly it assumes that miners are driven to much by economics and to little by politics than is probably true.  I'm sure that most of the miners who count these days have every likelihoods of looking out days or weeks into the future and taking a monetary hit for a future enduring reward.

If that were true, p2Pool would be among the top 3.

You are making the case that miners do control the outcome. If a large share of miners decide not to implement the change then it doesn't happen. If they upgrade and fork anyway (which I know wouldn't happen without consensus) then they would need to "rollback" when they realize the hard fork did not succeed. Hard forks were a different story when you could just make sure Tycho, Slush, eleuthria, Graet, LukeJr and Inaba were on board. It's more difficult today and will become increasingly difficult in the future. Maybe there needs to be a Bitcoin Mining Foundation with free membership and some perks for pool owners so you at least have the ability to communicate with them before a major change. As the mining distribution stands right now, I see about 37% of the hash rate that you may not even be able to contact or easily contact.
 

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January 12, 2015, 01:19:28 PM
 #188

Centralisation in every aspect is what i read here. Well done folks. That was quite fast.
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January 12, 2015, 01:26:56 PM
 #189



Hm... no. They are not.

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January 12, 2015, 01:37:19 PM
 #190

Centralisation in every aspect is what i read here. Well done folks. That was quite fast.

No, you truly don't understand. It's becoming more decentralized. The more time that passes the greater the number of unknown and unavailable miners. Good for decentralization - bad for communication. Without communication there can be no consensus. Without consensus there can be no fork.

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January 12, 2015, 01:39:30 PM
 #191

There should be a small fork before the next block reward halving, maybe raise the size limit to 1.5MB just to hold the hands of the crybabies. Then after the halving, raise it to 25MB. I don't understand the reluctance of upgrading. When Bitcoin came out most people were still using Windows XP. All they're doing is changing a number FFS!
Exactly. This doesn't harm Bitcoin in any way.
Imagine if the 1MB limit was never documented but was there, would you know about it and/or care? No.

It's not like they are changing the daily supply or anything, numbers, that actually matter.

Not exactly. Please note: I'm on Gavin's side in this matter, but the block size limit is an economic factor of the network, so it's not just a meaningless constant that is being changed.

How about the following, crude, distinction of relevance of protocol changes:

1) purely technical adjustments of the protocol without (obvious) economic consequences

2) economically relevant changes that are compatible with the original protocol and its rules

3) economically relevant changes that are not compatible with the original protocol and its rules


Now, whether a change falls under 2) or 3) is a matter of discussion of course, and is precisely the topic of this thread. But using the above terminology, my claim would be that raising block size limit is considered 2) by a majority of users, miners, investors as of now, while only a minority considers it to fall under 3).

The real test will be if and when Gavin seriously pushes for the change: ultimately, the market reaction to a more formal announcement will be the deciding factor. I expect that reaction to be utterly unimpressive, and the change to go through nearly uncontested. If so, have fun with your "MPcoin", daniel.

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January 12, 2015, 01:49:56 PM
 #192

I think it is important that we address these issues before the next bubble where transaction volumes could spike far past 7tps. Gavin is well reasoned to be concerned with both transaction fees and blocksize limits.

I support Gavin and the rest of the developers with these changes.
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January 12, 2015, 02:09:52 PM
 #193

It will not be as easy as it looks like, especially now when the hashing power is much more distributed between different pools and farms. But we will first see what kind of consequence a fixed 1MB block size will bring when transactions pass 4000 per block

If you haven't seen it already, you haven't been paying attention. Has happened temporarily a few times when luck has given us a cluster of 20 or 30 minute blocks during medium/heavy tx volume...  tx start getting backed up.

No I didn't. But I guess that it is not yet a problem when they can be cleared in a hour or two. For small transactions, I don't care about confirmation, will just deliver the goods when seeing unconfirmed transaction. For larger transaction, wait one day is still faster than most of the bank transfer today
If the long term average number of transactions per 10 minutes is greater then what the network can handle then the average wait time to get a confirmation will always increase until the max block size is either increased or the market evolves so that less transactions are sent per every 10 minutes (on average)

Or you stupid-poor can start paying for the nice things that have so far been dropped into your ungrateful laps.

This is one of the reasons why this should have been done in the past. Less people, less useless complaints.
I wonder what you will say when we start hitting our current limit?

I'll say, "the free ride is over."

This is one of the reasons why this should have been done in the past. Less people, less useless complaints.
I wonder what you will say when we start hitting our current limit?

"Look!  Meaningful transaction fees after only 7 8 9 ? years."

But meaningful transaction fees probably won't happen at all unless the 'tbfcoin' bloatchain fork fails.  To many people are to attached to the quaint notion that indigents get stuff for free after growing up in and environment rife with public services and welfare and such.  Seems that nobody is more attached to this notion of deep subsidies for all than the ardent Libertarians around here.  Go figure?

---

BTW, I think that 'tbfcoin' is more appropriate (and effective and fun) than 'gavincoin'.  The Bitcoin Foundation funds the work and their upper-tier membership are the ones who benefit (or imagine that they will at least.)

Not so crazy about 'mpcoin' either, also for propaganda reasons.  Hopefully it will be just plain old 'bitcoin', but the victors write the history books.



That's not really fair to the real Bitcoin Foundation.

...
I don't understand the reluctance of upgrading. When Bitcoin came out most people were still using Windows XP. All they're doing is changing a number FFS!

I wonder about Multibit (which I don't and cannot use) and whether anyone using it would really know or care what was happening vis-a-vis forks and potential wars associated with them?  As I understand things the client just asks some random unknown someone for an spv proof and maybe verifies it with some headers or some such.  Would people running that client (most these days I would guess) even need to upgrade or push any buttons or anything?

I've always been negative about Multibit (and like things) because as far as I can tell they don't do jack shit to support the network other than increase the head-count of the herd.  When I was more interested in being peeved about it, I theorized that it might be used to more conveniently herd the sheep but I lost interest in trying to find out.  Now I'm more interested again.



JUST CHANGING A NUMBER!? Hey let's just tweak a few more numbers while we're in there! I'm thinking the block reward...

Things like Multibit will probably switch you to gavincoin without notice. The only way to be sure that your funds are being spent on the chain you intended them to is to run your own full node(s).

There should be a small fork before the next block reward halving, maybe raise the size limit to 1.5MB just to hold the hands of the crybabies. Then after the halving, raise it to 25MB. I don't understand the reluctance of upgrading. When Bitcoin came out most people were still using Windows XP. All they're doing is changing a number FFS!
Exactly. This doesn't harm Bitcoin in any way.
Imagine if the 1MB limit was never documented but was there, would you know about it and/or care? No.

It's not like they are changing the daily supply or anything, numbers, that actually matter.

Do you know why there aren't many over-sized blocks? BECAUSE THERE'S A LIMIT!! This is indeed a "number that matters." All the numbers matter. In computer programming, especially cryptography, every number matters! Y'all are in for a rude awakening when you realize Gavin doesn't like Bitcoin.



Hm... no. They are not.

This guy is.

There should be a small fork before the next block reward halving, maybe raise the size limit to 1.5MB just to hold the hands of the crybabies. Then after the halving, raise it to 25MB. I don't understand the reluctance of upgrading. When Bitcoin came out most people were still using Windows XP. All they're doing is changing a number FFS!
Exactly. This doesn't harm Bitcoin in any way.
Imagine if the 1MB limit was never documented but was there, would you know about it and/or care? No.

It's not like they are changing the daily supply or anything, numbers, that actually matter.

Not exactly. Please note: I'm on Gavin's side in this matter, but the block size limit is an economic factor of the network, so it's not just a meaningless constant that is being changed.

How about the following, crude, distinction of relevance of protocol changes:

1) purely technical adjustments of the protocol without (obvious) economic consequences

2) economically relevant changes that are compatible with the original protocol and its rules

3) economically relevant changes that are not compatible with the original protocol and its rules


Now, whether a change falls under 2) or 3) is a matter of discussion of course, and is precisely the topic of this thread. But using the above terminology, my claim would be that raising block size limit is considered 2) by a majority of users, miners, investors as of now, while only a minority considers it to fall under 3).

The real test will be if and when Gavin seriously pushes for the change: ultimately, the market reaction to a more formal announcement will be the deciding factor. I expect that reaction to be utterly unimpressive, and the change to go through nearly uncontested. If so, have fun with your "MPcoin", daniel.

I love how retards like you word your posts as if there is a discussion to be had on this issue. "Derp-dee-derp, here's a list of some options. Don't I sound democratically informed?" Bitcoin isn't a democracy; it is sovereign. You do not change Bitcoin; Bitcoin changes you.

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January 12, 2015, 02:31:25 PM
 #194

You don't see it yet because it isn't an issue yet, but there will be a market for mining fees. This is a much bigger threat to Bitcoin than the prospect of a bunch of poor nobodies having to actually pay for the seeming miraculous service of sending any amount of wealth anywhere in the world in an hour. You should better worry about the people who literally secure the network. Do you think they will do this work for free? They will not keep mining blocks when the block reward is no longer significant, and users will not make up the difference out of the kindness of their hearts. Supply and demand drive price. There is a finite supply of transaction space, and that is why users will include a fee. This whole hard fork drama is part of the bigger brain-damaged notion that Bitcoin isn't about money.
A larger block size limit does not preclude miners from rejecting transactions with too low a fee.

Miners are supposed to compete with each other, but that doesn't work well when mining pools are so dominant. Currently they have no real incentive to gouge on fees, but that will change as the block-reward halves and fees become more important. High fees are in all miners interests, so it makes some sense that they will collude on that. We will probably get some small fraction, say 5% of miners who accept low fees, which means a user paying a low fee will have to wait on average 20 times as long for their transaction to be confirmed.

Whatever. The point is that market forces will play out regardless of the block size limit.

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January 12, 2015, 02:39:21 PM
 #195

Thank you for the schism.
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January 12, 2015, 02:42:18 PM
 #196

A larger block size limit does not preclude miners from rejecting transactions with too low a fee.


I think there's some other lower limit on free tx, like 15,000 bytes per block.

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January 12, 2015, 03:13:18 PM
 #197

Maybe there needs to be a Bitcoin Mining Foundation with free membership and some perks for pool owners so you at least have the ability to communicate with them before a major change.

You must be trolling.
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January 12, 2015, 04:14:30 PM
 #198

Maybe there needs to be a Bitcoin Mining Foundation with free membership and some perks for pool owners so you at least have the ability to communicate with them before a major change.

You must be trolling.

No, just making the point that there is no organization or consensus that unifies the miners like the org that unifies the businessmen. They can't even contact all of them anymore.

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January 12, 2015, 04:22:45 PM
 #199

You don't see it yet because it isn't an issue yet, but there will be a market for mining fees. This is a much bigger threat to Bitcoin than the prospect of a bunch of poor nobodies having to actually pay for the seeming miraculous service of sending any amount of wealth anywhere in the world in an hour. You should better worry about the people who literally secure the network. Do you think they will do this work for free? They will not keep mining blocks when the block reward is no longer significant, and users will not make up the difference out of the kindness of their hearts. Supply and demand drive price. There is a finite supply of transaction space, and that is why users will include a fee. This whole hard fork drama is part of the bigger brain-damaged notion that Bitcoin isn't about money.
A larger block size limit does not preclude miners from rejecting transactions with too low a fee.

Miners are supposed to compete with each other, but that doesn't work well when mining pools are so dominant. Currently they have no real incentive to gouge on fees, but that will change as the block-reward halves and fees become more important. High fees are in all miners interests, so it makes some sense that they will collude on that. We will probably get some small fraction, say 5% of miners who accept low fees, which means a user paying a low fee will have to wait on average 20 times as long for their transaction to be confirmed.

Whatever. The point is that market forces will play out regardless of the block size limit.

Miners aren't just gonna drop free money. When the block reward halves, the fees are not going to pick up the slack. There will probably be some combination of the price per coin going up (reflecting the sudden drop in supply), and miners shutting down (reflecting the sudden drop in profit). The fees won't play into it whatsoever. The miners remaining will still include the most amount of free money in their blocks as possible. They aren't going to voluntarily adhere to some magic number. Hard limits are there to force the situation in which miners have to choose between competing sets of transactions, picking the one with the most free money. This isn't even about paying the miners; it would be just as good if all fees were destroyed. The point is that there be competition in the transaction space, or else it will become a socialist wasteland.

Marriage is a permanent bond (or should be) between a man and a woman. Scripture reveals a man has the freedom to have this marriage bond with more than one woman, if he so desires. But, anything beyond this is a perversion. -- Darwin Fish
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January 12, 2015, 04:29:00 PM
 #200

I love how retards like you word your posts as if there is a discussion to be had on this issue.

You were barely coherent to begin with, so I appreciate the direct admission of defeat to put forward a proper argument.


You do not change Bitcoin; Bitcoin changes you.

How nice. You'll be constantly surprised in the coming years.

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