Fork off

[NxtChg]

No, no, and no. You're working on the assumption that bitcoin depends on the poor, when it's the poor that depend on bitcoin.

The value of Bitcoin is "virtual". It's valued to the extent of all the individual "hopes and dreams" attached to it.

You might value it mostly because it's not government money. Others might value it because they expect it to be something bigger eventually.

The problem is: at this point nobody knows for sure the size of  each part.

Can we trade a little security for wider adoption? Would wider adoption make it more valuable? Nobody knows.

How much will the value of bitcoin drop when people realize it can never scale? Nobody knows.

That's why all these battles on forums don't amount to much - it's all speculation and hearsay, nobody really knows.

--

As for your argument about poor with not enough money - well, fortunately the 1% doesn't control 99% of money yet.

Remember the long tail? So it might just happen that your Rich Money will be a niche product of 100 millionaires. And the Poor Money will be a mass product of $10 multiplied by 100 million users.

It seems to me that ultimately, the value of money is determined by its utility. If we're all just storing money in bitcoin - who's gonna buy? For money to work it needs to be moving.

If it's just a community of 100 rich people, I don't think even they will find it much usable and valuable.

After all, you, rich folks, can just sleep on piles of gold (probably even cheaper, since you won't have to pay miners to heat up the universe anymore).

[xcsler]

Growing adoption doesn't mean we need to scale beyond 1MB. Certainly not at this point in time.
Not every coffee purchase needs to be in the blockchain. I doubt bitcoin can support microtransactions anyway, not even with gavin's proposals.
I think many people support the idea of bitcoin as a store of value and want to cut the third party risk of the current monetary system.
Think gold - you buy an ounce, or 1/10ounce. What's the point of paying with gold for a coffee? Only if gold could be sent over the internet....

I understand the other side of things - that it would be nice to have bitcoin supporting even micropayments but lets slow down and think it over first. I mean those changes suggested are still not a final solution to all bitcoin flaws and haven't even touched on more important things like mining centralization. It will make the system even more centralized - there is no doubt about that.

I guess people with the 'Fork it hard' attitude don't hold enough stake or are simply arrogant to the dangers of a hard fork.

Value is a moving target.
The less people use something the less valuable it becomes.

I don't think that off-chain/side-chain stuff is the right approach, it introduces backing. It is divide-and-conquer tactics at its best. Fiat was once backed with gold, you know how that turned out. At some point people will realize: "hmm, if i can buy food with these centralized off-chain coins, why do I need those bitcoins anyway?"

I'm not saying "let's change all the rules", but we need to figure out what are the rules and what is the game. In my recent discussions on the forum I've come to believe that money is a dynamic essence. You need to keep up with the flow in order to maintain and even gain value. If Bitcoin doesn't move others will replace it.

People would still be using Bitcoin just not on chain.
When the dollar was backed by gold it worked perfectly well and the country experienced its greatest growth.
The dollars were essentially off chain transactions which were backed by gold which would be analogous to the blockchain.
When gold backing was removed it enabled massive deficit spending by governments shifting the balance of economic power from individuals to a central authority. The result are unsustainable measures like quantitative easing and monetary manipulation not just in the US but in the EU and Japan as well. The fiat currency system is broken beyond repair and Bitcoin solves the problem.

As an aside Bitcoin is a transparent system which makes it less susceptible to manipulation compared to physical gold whose holdings are much more difficult to audit.

[VectorChief]

There are only people: people I trust, and people that I don't trust. And I don't trust Gavin.

Open source. We don't need your trust. Thanks anyway.

You are ridiculously foolish to say such a thing. The trust is not towards a black box of unknown contents. Public code is written by people, and verified by people. If there is a disagreement among developers, leading to a fork in a project, users will have to trust one over another. It is not possible to remove trust from a system, and you haven't found some magical replacement for hierarchy.

Fiat was once backed with gold, you know how that turned out.

Yeah, they took all the gold. Let's see them take all the bitcoin.

The evolution and proliferation of blockchain DNA is what will turn "them" into "us". The Earth will be healed and ready for the next frontier. The galaxy is waiting!

[NxtChg]

People would still be using Bitcoin just not on chain.
When the dollar was backed by gold it worked perfectly well and the country experienced its greatest growth.

The difference is - the government enforced a single currency. In a decentralized system, nobody will.

This severely hinders the utility: by adding a mental effort to decide which off-chain to use and by introducing friction at borders.

You will get the same mess we have with altcoins now, only it will also be even less clear what is securing each individual off-chain.

[xcsler]

Can we trade a little security for wider adoption? Would wider adoption make it more valuable? Nobody knows.

How much will the value of bitcoin drop when people realize it can never scale? Nobody knows.

You aren't sacrificing wider adoption of Bitcoin. You are sacrificing wider on chain adoption of Bitcoin.
Bitcoin can scale perfectly well with off chain transactions. History has shown us this when the "off-chain US dollar" was backed by "on-chain gold."

Your trading a little bit of Bitcoin security for adoption is akin to making the gold more easy to counterfeit.

[VectorChief]

Can we trade a little security for wider adoption? Would wider adoption make it more valuable? Nobody knows.

How much will the value of bitcoin drop when people realize it can never scale? Nobody knows.

You aren't sacrificing wider adoption of Bitcoin. You are sacrificing wider on chain adoption of Bitcoin.
Bitcoin can scale perfectly well with off chain transactions. History has shown us this when the "off-chain US dollar" was backed by "on-chain gold."

Your trading a little bit of Bitcoin security for adoption is akin to making the gold more easy to counterfeit.

You are suggesting to use divide-and-conquer tactic and back it with historical facts demonstrating that it worked perfectly well for the conquerors. I suggest we keep united and seek for solutions together. Bitcoin is here to stir the pot and wake people up. Ding!

[xcsler]

People would still be using Bitcoin just not on chain.
When the dollar was backed by gold it worked perfectly well and the country experienced its greatest growth.

The difference is - the government enforced a single currency. In a decentralized system, nobody will.

This severely hinders the utility: by adding a mental effort to decide which off-chain to use and by introducing friction at borders.

You will get the same mess we have with altcoins now, only it will also be even less clear what is securing each individual off-chain.

With all the alts out there Bitcoin still commands >99% of the market share. The free market and network effect have already essentially recognized a single cryptocurrency.

Also in the past the situation you worry about already existed. US Dollars, British Pounds, French Francs and other currencies were all backed by different weights of gold. Essentially these currencies can be thought of as off-chains. Converting one to another was trivial.

[xcsler]

Can we trade a little security for wider adoption? Would wider adoption make it more valuable? Nobody knows.

How much will the value of bitcoin drop when people realize it can never scale? Nobody knows.

You aren't sacrificing wider adoption of Bitcoin. You are sacrificing wider on chain adoption of Bitcoin.
Bitcoin can scale perfectly well with off chain transactions. History has shown us this when the "off-chain US dollar" was backed by "on-chain gold."

Your trading a little bit of Bitcoin security for adoption is akin to making the gold more easy to counterfeit.

You are suggesting to use divide-and-conquer tactic and back it with historical facts demonstrating that it worked perfectly well for the conquerors. I suggest we keep united and seek for solutions together. Bitcoin is here to stir the pot and wake people up. Ding!

It worked for the conquerors because they stole all of the "on-chain bitcoins". FDR made it illegal for citizens to own gold in 1933 with Executive Order 6102. This can't be done with today's bitcoins because of the transparent distributed digital ledger. Your proposals weaken security and makes bitcoin confiscation more likely.

[NxtChg]

With all the alts out there Bitcoin still commands >99% of the market share. The free market and network effect have already essentially recognized a single cryptocurrency.

This is not an argument, it's just a statement. I can only reply that the free market can easily pick a better solution (it usually does) and mass-migrations of networked users are not unheard of.

Converting one to another was trivial.

Right... Tell me more about how "trivial" it is to convert currencies even today

Actually no, I am done here. You seem to have exhausted all the reasonable arguments

[xcsler]

With all the alts out there Bitcoin still commands >99% of the market share. The free market and network effect have already essentially recognized a single cryptocurrency.

This is not an argument, it's just a statement. I can only reply that the free market can easily pick a better solution (it usually does) and mass-migrations of networked users are not unheard of.

Converting one to another was trivial.

Right... Tell me more about how "trivial" it is to convert currencies even today

Actually no, I am done here. You seem to have exhausted all the reasonable arguments

In the past all the currencies represented different weights of gold. They were essentially the same currency.
Today that is not the case.

[VectorChief]

Can we trade a little security for wider adoption? Would wider adoption make it more valuable? Nobody knows.

How much will the value of bitcoin drop when people realize it can never scale? Nobody knows.

You aren't sacrificing wider adoption of Bitcoin. You are sacrificing wider on chain adoption of Bitcoin.
Bitcoin can scale perfectly well with off chain transactions. History has shown us this when the "off-chain US dollar" was backed by "on-chain gold."

Your trading a little bit of Bitcoin security for adoption is akin to making the gold more easy to counterfeit.

You are suggesting to use divide-and-conquer tactic and back it with historical facts demonstrating that it worked perfectly well for the conquerors. I suggest we keep united and seek for solutions together. Bitcoin is here to stir the pot and wake people up. Ding!

It worked for the conquerors because they stole all of the "on-chain bitcoins". FDR made it illegal for citizens to own gold in 1933 with Executive Order 6102. This can't be done with today's bitcoins because of the transparent distributed digital ledger. Your proposals weaken security and makes bitcoin confiscation more likely.

First of all, the power players of today are not as united as we think they are. It means that for as long as we, the people, are not divided (into sub-chains), confiscation of Bitcoin's mining power locally would not result in a complete shutdown of the network. It would need to be a concerted effort and apparently not all the major participants in the geo-politics arena are interested in this.

Secondly, the power players of today might see Bitcoin as a solution to the problems of the world, which are otherwise hard to reach consensus on. The nature of PoW is such, that power players will be engaging at some point one way or another. I mean, you won't run away with your mining farm too far. The idea is then to let them embrace the rules of the game, and make the game more transparent than it used to be.

[waaat?]

It is so obvious i have to ask myself what kind of drugs Gavin is on.

Why does he not release Gavincoin as new coin instead of screwing up BTC?

[NxtChg]

It is so obvious i have to ask myself what kind of drugs Gavin is on.

Exactly.

Back to caves, humans. You had a pretty good run.

By the way, I know they say a picture is worth a thousand words, but I think yours is worth about 4.

[waaat?]

It is so obvious i have to ask myself what kind of drugs Gavin is on.

Exactly.

Back to caves, humans. You had a pretty good run.

By the way, I know they say a picture is worth a thousand words, but I think yours is worth about 4.

There is no need for discussion. There is only a need to note: we have no consensus on it and it's on you to accept that. Gavincoin can still be launched in altsection.

There have been enough arguments listed here why it's a bad idea at the current time. People not recognizing it are the problem and useless individuals to interact with.

Forking Bitcoin into Gavincoin has been declined. Deal with it.

[bornil267645]

It is really difficult to fix engineering problem and social media problem but it's really easy to ignore.I think soon they will fix it.

[VectorChief]

There is no need for discussion. There is only a need to note: we have no consensus on it and it's on you to accept that. Gavincoin can still be launched in altsection.

There have been enough arguments listed here why it's a bad idea at the current time. People not recognizing it are the problem and useless individuals to interact with.

Forking Bitcoin into Gavincoin has been declined. Deal with it.

Um... waaat?

I like this little guy! He has some leadership skills on him too.

It is really difficult to fix engineering problem and social media problem but it's really easy to ignore.I think soon they will fix it.

Recognizing and fixing the problems is exactly what we need to learn how to do and get very good at, if we're to make it into space. With Bitcoin we will!

http://www.millybee.com/images/rocket1.gif

[NxtChg]

I like this little guy! He has some leadership skills on him too.

Sometimes I wonder, what would this place be if there were some sort of minimal intelligence check...

[balu2]

Sometimes I wonder, what would this place be if there were some sort of minimal intelligence check...

See this pyramid? You're currently at the bottom of it

[NxtChg]

See this pyramid? You're currently at the bottom of it

http://english102-tamuc-barnes.wikispaces.com/file/view/Argument_Pyramid.jpg/112461215/Argument_Pyramid.jpg

Oh yeah, and he was definitely at the top

I went all the way down just to reach his level...

[balu2]

See this pyramid? You're currently at the bottom of it

http://english102-tamuc-barnes.wikispaces.com/file/view/Argument_Pyramid.jpg/112461215/Argument_Pyramid.jpg

Oh yeah, and he was definitely at the top

I went all the way down just to reach his level...

i think he correctly applied consensus principle