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toast
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January 13, 2015, 12:59:31 AM |
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How many delegates will the 3 richest guys get? 30? No! They will get 0, and 100% of the delegates will be those selected by the majority composed of tiny stakeholders. If that doesn't make sense to you, go read how approval voting works.
Expand on this part pls. Why would they get 0 delegates? Won't each get 20% approval of the Bitshares stakes, voting for each other? 30% if they also vote for themselves? Which is more than the threashold for getting elected There's no "threshold" for getting elected. Maybe you mean the current 10% lowest approval in our particular system, but that is also in the same system where the largest stakeholder has nowhere near 10%. In my example I said to assume full voter participation, and to assume you have 3 guys with 10% stake each and the other 70% stake is split among tons of small stakeholders who vote in their own interest. In this (extremely contrived) scenario, all 101 delegates would have 70% approval, while the 3 guys even if they all voted for each other would only have 30% approval. If this is confusing to you please read the wiki on how approval voting works. |
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StanLarimer
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January 13, 2015, 01:10:21 AM |
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When do I get my consultancy fee?  Send me your BitShare's ID and I'll send you 1000 BitShares. Shall I just send it to Daedelus right now, or do I need to give you time to register?  |
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StanLarimer
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January 13, 2015, 01:30:09 AM |
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Put some research and factual numbers in and we could have a discussion.
Wow, I may have to up the size of Daedelus' fee for challenging me to extend my qualitative speculation here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=920621.msg10128438#msg10128438Into something more quantitatively rigorous. His challenge above just inspired Bytemaster (with some research help from chryspano of bitsharestalk.org) into publishing another article addressing this very topic. I really don't want to get into a war with any specific block chain tribe here, that's why I tried to use generic categories like POW, POS, and DPOS in my previous post without unnecessarily naming names. We view the NXT community as a valuable ally in the real fight against the current corrupt system. But, since you asked so nicely for a concrete example, here's the article Bytemaster authored just for you ... |
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Daedelus (OP)
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January 13, 2015, 01:33:53 AM
Last edit: January 13, 2015, 01:57:02 AM by Daedelus |
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Pre-empt Stans next post: he is still assuming today's distributions are fixed and will never improve For a fair comparison of his model, he should be using Ripple as his 'vs'. I said previously that distributed models are quicker at achieving consensus as they have a fixed number of nodes to consult, rather then a constantly changing x number that occur in decentralised systems. Last I heard, Ripple have 15 second confirmations. Bytemaster should know this is he truly was "objective as possible", his blog has turned into a hate campaign against Nxt with no right of reply. Comments would allow readers to judge the true value of what he is saying. He also writes as though he has found a big secret.. Bump. You should test your definitions in the wider community. I'll refrain from going into init, xeldel etc delegates and the 101. It is not a good look. I will leave you to your campaign. |
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StanLarimer
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January 13, 2015, 02:15:10 AM
Last edit: January 13, 2015, 02:27:13 AM by StanLarimer |
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Pre-empt Stans next post: he is still assuming today's distributions are fixed and will never improve For a fair comparison of his model, he should be using Ripple as his 'vs'. I said previously that distributed models are quicker at achieving consensus as they have a fixed number of nodes to consult, rather then a constantly changing x number that occur in decentralised systems. Last I heard, Ripple have 15 second confirmations. Bytemaster should know this is he truly was "objective as possible", his blog has turned into a hate campaign against Nxt with no right of reply. Comments would allow readers to judge the true value of what he is saying. He also writes as though he has found a big secret.. I can assure you there is not a shred of hate directed against NXT or any other crypto tribe. We want NXT to succeed. Truth is, we hardly ever think about other tribes except to try to be somewhat informed when interviewers ask us about some point of comparison (or to see what we can learn from them - imitation is the sincerest form of flattery). It is entirely possible that improvements have been made since we last checked in. Discussions like this help us find that out. The only reason I am even engaged in this conversation at all is for the purpose of explaining that BitShares is exploring a different design space, with different design criteria, and a different set of optimization parameters. And that our design is valid and competitive. Our long term goals go far beyond the current functionality and many of our design decisions are made with that in mind. Without an understanding of that vision and roadmap, we can understand why some of our decisions are not yet well understood. But those who have taken the time to gaze down that road with Bytemaster are truly inspired. Look at the scope of topics at Bytemaster.BitShares.org and you'll begin to get the idea. He's not making any big secret about it. Your definition of decentralization doesn't need to agree with ours. You are exploring what you can accomplish along that design axis and that's great. We hope it succeeds and have no need to argue about it except in self-defense. My campaign is simply this - use the opportunity created by people stirring up controversy to tell our side of the story. To prove that I am sincere, take a look at this recent article stimulated when Bytemaster and Vitalik were exchanging views on Our position is clear: we are still in the Cambrian Explosion phase of the crypto-revolution. We need a lot of evolution happening all at once and need lots of species out there mutating. We need continuing recombination of our open source crypto-DNA as the fastest possible path to replacement of the current system's evil dinosaurs. We mammals need to stick together a little while longer! Some of our ideas about "smart decentralization" we hope will inspire other alternatives to brute force decentralization. We hope that our self-funding model will inspire others to accelerate their development the same way. We hope that our emphasis on building in profitability as a design requirement will point the way to everybody becoming more adapted for survival in whatever ecological niche they have chosen. So any time we stop to engage with a tribe of fellow-warriors, it is only to share our insights (and defend them if necessary.) We do not need to stay inside the bounds of the current community consensus of opinion. In fact, we aim to break out of it and make new progress on the bleeding edge. You'll note we never engage in hateful, ad hominum attacks. Every post is aimed only at sharing our ideas. If you find something useful in there you can use, why, you're welcome! |
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Daedelus (OP)
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January 13, 2015, 02:27:38 AM |
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You certainly do earn you $2500 a month, anyone would think you get paid by the letter There is no controversy over the definition of decentralised. Restart this thread in the the Bitcoin General section, as I attempted to do, and find out for yourself. And let me know when Dan has gained the confidence to engage in genuine debate everything is a little too staged managed for my tastes atm.. |
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bytemaster
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January 13, 2015, 02:35:26 AM |
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You certainly do earn you $2500 a month, anyone would think you get paid by the letter There is no controversy over the definition of decentralised. Restart this thread in the the Bitcoin General section, as I attempted to do, and find out for yourself. And let me know when Dan has gained the confidence to engage in genuine debate everything is a little too staged managed for my tastes atm.. This is absolutely the most amusing thing I have read in a while. I am the most directly accessible lead developer out there. If you want to have a real live debate, join our weekly mumble sessions. It will be quite entertaining and educational for all involved. |
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Daedelus (OP)
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January 13, 2015, 02:38:05 AM |
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You certainly do earn you $2500 a month, anyone would think you get paid by the letter There is no controversy over the definition of decentralised. Restart this thread in the the Bitcoin General section, as I attempted to do, and find out for yourself. And let me know when Dan has gained the confidence to engage in genuine debate everything is a little too staged managed for my tastes atm.. This is absolutely the most amusing thing I have read in a while. I am the most directly accessible lead developer out there. If you want to have a real live debate, join our weekly mumble sessions. It will be quite entertaining and educational for all involved. Why don't you allow comments on your blog if you choose to make claims about other cryptos? A little one sided, no? I guess you have been reading all along but chose not to take part? |
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StanLarimer
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January 13, 2015, 02:40:37 AM |
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You certainly do earn you $2500 a month, anyone would think you get paid by the letter There is no controversy over the definition of decentralised. Restart this thread in the the Bitcoin General section, as I attempted to do, and find out for yourself. And let me know when Dan has gained the confidence to engage in genuine debate everything is a little too staged managed for my tastes atm.. Actually, this isn't even what I do in my 60 hours a week working for BitShares. (But I admit, this is more fun!) |
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bytemaster
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January 13, 2015, 02:50:07 AM |
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You certainly do earn you $2500 a month, anyone would think you get paid by the letter There is no controversy over the definition of decentralised. Restart this thread in the the Bitcoin General section, as I attempted to do, and find out for yourself. And let me know when Dan has gained the confidence to engage in genuine debate everything is a little too staged managed for my tastes atm.. This is absolutely the most amusing thing I have read in a while. I am the most directly accessible lead developer out there. If you want to have a real live debate, join our weekly mumble sessions. It will be quite entertaining and educational for all involved. Why don't you allow comments on your blog if you choose to make claims about other cryptos? A little one sided, no? I guess you have been reading all along but chose not to take part? Here is why I don't use blog comments: http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2005/10/blog-comments/And no, I haven't been reading all along. I get updates from Stan periodically and people post on BitSharestalk which I follow. |
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Daedelus (OP)
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January 13, 2015, 03:00:16 AM |
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It is strange how Vitalik is able to have comments on his blog, arguably the most widely read in crypto, without issue.
If this thread is to remain useful, I think it is in your interests to repeat the initial purpose of this thread. You can do it on your own terms with as much obfuscation as Stan can muster. It is a challenge, if you think 'smart decentralisation' is a flyer, then it should be no issue for you.
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StanLarimer
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January 13, 2015, 03:01:25 AM |
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You certainly do earn you $2500 a month, anyone would think you get paid by the letter There is no controversy over the definition of decentralised. Restart this thread in the the Bitcoin General section, as I attempted to do, and find out for yourself. And let me know when Dan has gained the confidence to engage in genuine debate everything is a little too staged managed for my tastes atm.. This is absolutely the most amusing thing I have read in a while. I am the most directly accessible lead developer out there. If you want to have a real live debate, join our weekly mumble sessions. It will be quite entertaining and educational for all involved. Why don't you allow comments on your blog if you choose to make claims about other cryptos? A little one sided, no? I guess you have been reading all along but chose not to take part? Here is why I don't use blog comments: http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2005/10/blog-comments/And no, I haven't been reading all along. I get updates from Stan periodically and people post on BitSharestalk which I follow. That said, there are still plenty of ways to comment if you like. Every new article is posted as a link on BitSharesTalk.org and the community gives it a good debate. Come participate there - it's just a link away. What's more, most of the articles wind up getting posted on reddit or bitcointalk by somebody, and then they really get a workover! |
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Daedelus (OP)
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January 13, 2015, 03:05:45 AM |
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Can you post any examples of these working overs?
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StanLarimer
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January 13, 2015, 03:11:42 AM
Last edit: January 13, 2015, 03:46:36 AM by StanLarimer |
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It is strange how Vitalik is able to have comments on his blog, arguably the most widely read in crypto, without issue.
If this thread is to remain useful, I think it is in your interests to repeat the initial purpose of this thread. You can do it on your own terms with as much obfuscation as Stan can muster. It is a challenge, if you think 'smart decentralisation' is a flyer, then it should be no issue for you.
Polls are overrated. They can be easily be manipulated by issuing a tribal battle cry and at best they only represent the very groupthink we always try to escape. As General Patton once said in his famous speech to the 3rd Army: I don't want any messages saying 'I'm holding my position.' We're not holding a goddamned thing. We're advancing constantly and we're not interested in holding anything except the enemy's balls. We're going to hold him by his balls and we're going to kick him in the ass; twist his balls and kick the living shit out of him all the time. Our plan of operation is to advance and keep on advancing. We're going to go through the enemy like shit through a tinhorn. Of course, we intend to make our advances in a much more polite and erudite way... |
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Daedelus (OP)
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January 13, 2015, 03:13:56 AM |
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Just a discussion thread then, to allow everyone to make their points and be heard. It is bitcoiners you are trying to get the opinion of, champions of the first decentralised blockchain. At least I was, before the sabotage.
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Daedelus (OP)
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January 13, 2015, 03:30:57 AM |
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Can you post any examples of these working overs?
Bump. |
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Daedelus (OP)
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January 13, 2015, 03:33:58 AM |
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This is a free ticket on bitsharestalk. You led me to believe a wider audience on reddit and bitcointalk had scrutinised Dans claims. Particularly of his blog posts. |
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StanLarimer
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January 13, 2015, 03:45:15 AM |
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This is a free ticket on bitsharestalk. You led me to believe a wider audience on reddit and bitcointalk had scrutinised Dans claims. Particularly of his blog posts. Yes, I'm digging up the links to those too. The bitsharestalk.org threads were just already all on one page and easy to grab. (And are open to the public too - just a click away.) |
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Poll
