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Author Topic: LET'S TELL THE TRUTH ABOUT BITCOIN (NO TABOOS OR IRRATIONAL DREAMS)  (Read 2596 times)
Askenaz
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January 16, 2015, 03:38:44 PM
 #21

Man why it's so difficult to understand!!?? I'm surprised to see all these "experts" trying to justify a BIG LIE.


Look, if you want to fight the evil central banking system and be an alternative for payments, why just don't do that?:

Create a descentralized system with unlimited coins at 1$ fixed value that ASSURES that new coins will only be created when X fiat enter, and be destroyed when are exchanged for fiat. I know it has to be very complicated because of the bureocratic fiat control. But if you want to be a REAL alternative, this is the way where investigate.

Just imagine that appears this X coin, BTC would be a simply speculation asset, as it's designed to be.

The funny point is that behind the justifications of limited supply there's the "gold convertible" economic system desire. Still don't understand why so many people believe a deflationary currency it's better. Inflation has the danger to descontrol with bad practics like now, but it's good for the progress, cause obligates human to EVOLVE.                     
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January 16, 2015, 04:23:46 PM
 #22

I don't know if it's a currency or not, but I get paid in Bitcoin and I buy things with Bitcoin.

What should I call it instead of a currency?

Private money does exist but its not useful if the majority don't use it. 

Not useful to who? The people who use it?

I use Bitcoin all the time. Are you telling me it is not useful to me?

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January 16, 2015, 04:27:50 PM
 #23

Still don't understand why so many people believe a deflationary currency it's better. Inflation has the danger to descontrol with bad practics like now, but it's good for the progress, cause obligates human to EVOLVE.                      

You wouldn't need so many words if you just followed the Keynesian mantra on Bitcoin:

"I like the technology of the blockchain, just not Bitcoin."

You may also want to try Freicoin. It does what you want and is a total and utter failure.

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January 16, 2015, 04:33:55 PM
 #24

So what your saying is that your baseless guesses are true and anyone who knows better is a lair?
Bitcoin most certainly is a currency and was designed to be one. Parse it however you wish, but I use it to buy things because me and the seller are using it as a currency.

Mass adoption is here. I see it all over the world now when I travel. Tens of thousands of businesses use it, including some of the largest companies. and the list grows every day.

And your solutions to problems like speculation address non-problems. There are no rules for how to use bitcoin, unlike dollars these are yours and you can spend, invest, or squander them as you like. Bitcoin does not need our help. It is what it is, a currency.




The gospel according to Satoshi - https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf

Free bitcoin in ICELAND - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1610684
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January 16, 2015, 04:56:21 PM
 #25

but it's good for the progress, cause obligates human to EVOLVE.                     

Are you talking about the communist theory that if humans are subject to socialism for long enough, then we will evolve to the point where nobody will be greedy?

I wish humans would evolve to the point where nobody would ever use force, but I'm not going to hold my breath or subject someone to a system that they do not want to be a part of in order to achieve that.

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January 16, 2015, 05:00:21 PM
 #26

I don't know if it's a currency or not, but I get paid in Bitcoin and I buy things with Bitcoin.

What should I call it instead of a currency?

"Digital Gold" is not entirely accurate, but it sounds really good.
Bitcoin is better than currency, but what is it?   Smiley

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January 16, 2015, 05:07:03 PM
 #27

He can state its not designed to be stable because its inelastic.  Elasticity requires the currency to be created AND destroyed.  Because theres no central bank the increase of supply is on a fixed schedule and not responding to business cycles.  That is a fact

That is not a bad argument, however it is easily countered. Adding another variable (in this case, a central bank) does not automatically make a system stable. Although the purpose of a central bank is to make the currency more stable, it is also a fact that central banks have not succeeded (for a variety of reasons) in maintaining stable currencies.

Its not possible to argue definitively whether Central Bank policies have or have not made currencies stable.  I welcome you to argue they have not succeeded.  But the mechanism is there for them to try.  Economies go from stability to instability as a natural cycle.  Without a counter cyclical mechanism in place you are at the mercy of economic forces. 

Stability means no change in the value of the currency in both the long and short term. As you wrote, it is not possible to know if they have succeeded or failed in short-term stability, but the Fed for example, has definitively failed in the long term, which is arguably the easier of the two.

The central bank is intended to be a counter-cyclical mechanism, but in reality it can just be another source of instability. See "The Pretence of Knowledge", F. A. Hayek.

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January 16, 2015, 06:05:27 PM
 #28

He can state its not designed to be stable because its inelastic.  Elasticity requires the currency to be created AND destroyed.  Because theres no central bank the increase of supply is on a fixed schedule and not responding to business cycles.  That is a fact

That is not a bad argument, however it is easily countered. Adding another variable (in this case, a central bank) does not automatically make a system stable. Although the purpose of a central bank is to make the currency more stable, it is also a fact that central banks have not succeeded (for a variety of reasons) in maintaining stable currencies.

Its not possible to argue definitively whether Central Bank policies have or have not made currencies stable.  I welcome you to argue they have not succeeded.  But the mechanism is there for them to try.  Economies go from stability to instability as a natural cycle.  Without a counter cyclical mechanism in place you are at the mercy of economic forces.  

Stability means no change in the value of the currency in both the long and short term. As you wrote, it is not possible to know if they have succeeded or failed in short-term stability, but the Fed for example, has definitively failed in the long term, which is arguably the easier of the two.

The central bank is intended to be a counter-cyclical mechanism, but in reality it can just be another source of instability. See "The Pretence of Knowledge", F. A. Hayek.

Why do you say they failed in the long term if they keep rates along with inflation?  There target is 3-4% inflation so you can only say they are failing when they lag or exceed inflation targets

Stability doesn't mean flat or equilibrium.  Stability means not volatile

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twiifm
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January 16, 2015, 06:07:11 PM
 #29

I don't know if it's a currency or not, but I get paid in Bitcoin and I buy things with Bitcoin.

What should I call it instead of a currency?

Private money does exist but its not useful if the majority don't use it. 

Not useful to who? The people who use it?

I use Bitcoin all the time. Are you telling me it is not useful to me?

Not useful to the majority 99.9% of people.  Therefore you are in the minority

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facebook      twitter      slack
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Askenaz
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January 16, 2015, 08:10:43 PM
 #30

So what your saying is that your baseless guesses are true and anyone who knows better is a lair?
Bitcoin most certainly is a currency and was designed to be one. Parse it however you wish, but I use it to buy things because me and the seller are using it as a currency.

Mass adoption is here. I see it all over the world now when I travel. Tens of thousands of businesses use it, including some of the largest companies. and the list grows every day.

And your solutions to problems like speculation address non-problems. There are no rules for how to use bitcoin, unlike dollars these are yours and you can spend, invest, or squander them as you like. Bitcoin does not need our help. It is what it is, a currency.






Fly you are so ridiculous. What is tens of thousands when we are talking about millions of business?! What I'm saying it's not my opinion nor my desire, it's the fucking true and you got in front of you. If you don't agree, just try to explain me how the fuck a deflationary descentralized "currency" will stabilize it's value without help of anyone. The post was to know opinions of "experts", but looking these free bullshits it's a waste of time.

PD: Call me when BITCOIN has a stable value of +-3% average monthly variation. I bet my balls you'll never call me. Kiss  
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January 16, 2015, 11:16:19 PM
 #31

We all know the weaknesses so we just have to solve it. And solve by means of encouraging adoption which anybody can do. I'm not saying it will be 100pct accurate conclusion that with higher adoption this will solve the volatility issue. But we will a chance and definitely a higher probability

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January 17, 2015, 03:55:13 AM
 #32

The most obvious truth, some bitcoiner use bitcoin to get more profit in fiat currency
So, they always sell when the price is high & that's why bitcoin price always stuck

Kemampuanku Tidak semua orang memiliki dan dapat melakukannya . Tidak memakan kaum sendiri . dan mempunyai kode etik yang tidak masuk akal.
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January 17, 2015, 03:58:57 AM
 #33

Fiat is very unstable; Bitcoin is predictable and inspires confidence in intelligent users.


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January 17, 2015, 07:40:58 AM
 #34

Capital, in its most superior form, is something that can be liquidated quickly into anything at anywhere in the world, without relying on any third party or risking of being restricted or confiscated by authorities. So far bitcoin is on the right track to become such kind of premium asset, and it will gain momentum as the currency war and financial turbulence is escalating around the world

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January 17, 2015, 07:48:58 AM
 #35

   Maybe this has already been brought up and the discussion is over my head but,

A) you don't need to hold bitcoin to use bitcoin. Third party services are competing to offer the efficiency gains of bitcoin without the risk to the laypeople. This applies to retail, wholesale, and services. Patience.

B) volatility means some people are making money. As long as there is money to be made more speculators will be entering the market in favor of other, harder to manipulate markets.


C) Both of the above ensure increasing adoption, which will lead to greater stability.


However, look at the volatility of the oil market- the market is huge, and has still seen swings of over 50% in the last five years. However, oil provides real utility to both users and producers, which is why people use it in spite of price volatility. Bitcoin also provides real utility. In countries with low labor costs, the difference between using manual labor and machines could benas little as a few tenths of a percent, but in a competitive environment, this cannot be ignored. Fluctuations in the oil price have to be factored into this. In the oil market, just as in bitcoin, price swings in either direction leave winners and losers. Your problem may be with the nature of markets, which are a reflection of human nature, rather than bitcoin. I completely understand this sentiment, but I think it is just that it is more visible due to bitcoins high velocity.


 Sparrows and mountains move differently, due to different levels of mass, but both are moving. We are better able to perceive the movement of sparrows due to our short lifespans, but the mountains are moving, growing, and being worn down none the less. A little study of the traces of their history provides ample evidence.

   I
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January 17, 2015, 09:11:03 AM
 #36

I don't know if it's a currency or not, but I get paid in Bitcoin and I buy things with Bitcoin.

What should I call it instead of a currency?

Private money does exist but its not useful if the majority don't use it. 

Not useful to who? The people who use it?

I use Bitcoin all the time. Are you telling me it is not useful to me?

Not useful to the majority 99.9% of people.  Therefore you are in the minority

What do I care of the majority? The majority voted for Barack Obama, the majority spends money at Starbucks.

I can use Bitcoin to buy things that I need. I can get paid in Bitcoin. That is all I need. As long as all of the services that exist right now do not go away, I can survive on Bitcoin with no need for centralized, government controlled fiat. We have reached that point. And new services pop up every day, like being able to use Bitcoin on ebay.

currency:
 noun, plural currencies.
1. something that is used as a medium of exchange

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January 17, 2015, 11:08:54 AM
 #37


Not useful to the majority 99.9% of people.  Therefore you are in the minority

None of the existing currencies is used by majority (>50%) of people.

You either got the your definition of 'currency' wrong, or there is no such thing as 'currency'.

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January 17, 2015, 05:18:27 PM
 #38

With respect to the oldest and most ranked members of the bitcoin community: PLEASE STOP TELLING LIES ABOUT BITCOIN.

Even a ten year old kid could say that: "BITCOIN WILL NEVER BE A CURRENCY". But that's the truth, like it or not. The reason is the same as always, BITCOIN VALUE IS TOO VOLATILE. Then, most "experts" say that the volatility will decrease as the adoption grows.

HUGE LIE! The content of this quote is simply contradictory, see it: "If there's mass adoption, then<>volatility will decrease". But the fact is that MASS ADOPTION WILL NOT COME with actual volatility. Then, the content of the quote is contradictory and doesn't make sense. Some people believe in god, others belive in bitcoin as a currency.

Like it or not, any currency needs a stable value to work. And bitcoin will never be able to do it, because IT'S NOT DESIGNED FOR THAT. If satoshi really wanted to create an alternative to the actual banking system, he/she wouldn't have created a deflationary currency. A limited supply and USEFUL thing like BITCOIN, versus an exponential growing dollar, make a perfect combination for a BIG SPECULATIVE ASSET.

The problem is that, as a speculative asset, it's controlled mainly by speculators, whose are interested in high volatilities. This high volatility scares the mass, and without their support, bitcoin will not be a currency. I won't be able to buy oranges, computers or houses with them, because people will not accept this what they call "scam".

The only solution would be to drive out the speculators of the market, but that's simply IMPOSSIBLE.

Bitcoin blockchain technology is amazing and key for the future transactions, the problem is BITCOIN distribution and value process, it's not designed to be a currency.  

So please stop telling lies and impossible dreams, let's say the truth together and EVOLVE!
      
you get a fantastic point, bitcoin is not and will not be a currency.
Then what?
Does it mean that bitcoin doesn't exist or do not have value?  NO
Does it mean bitcoin can't be used to buy things ? NO
It is used, and it has very useful innovation
So call it the way you want, we do not care Smiley

BTW sorry for your big desillusion ...
You have good imagination, the 1$coin is a amazing one, really. i would love to own some. Thing is, it doesn't exist and i belive it never will.
Before bitcoin i tought bitcoin like project was impossible too so make me change my mind, PLEASE!

The cost of mediation increases transaction costs, limiting the
minimum practical transaction size and cutting off the possibility for small casual transactions

Satoshi Nakamoto : https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
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January 17, 2015, 08:07:21 PM
 #39

It is true that a widespread adoption may lead to a decrease volatility in price as most people use bitcoin as a form of "currency" in their everyday lives. But bitcoin will--yep you're right--never be a currency because it is designed to have a limited supply vs the exponential minting of the dollar which can be used by most of the people around the globe.

You don't want to spend 0.0000012 on a hamburger, do you?

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January 17, 2015, 11:20:37 PM
 #40

It is true that a widespread adoption may lead to a decrease volatility in price as most people use bitcoin as a form of "currency" in their everyday lives. But bitcoin will--yep you're right--never be a currency because it is designed to have a limited supply vs the exponential minting of the dollar which can be used by most of the people around the globe.

You don't want to spend 0.0000012 on a hamburger, do you?

Why would I not want to spend 1.20 bits on a burger?


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Pool your bitcoins with others. Vote on solutions using the Bitcoin blockchain. Keep your bitcoins in your cold storage until you find a solution you like.
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