Responsibility for double spend

[legendster]

I got this message from epay written in pinkish red, which basically stated that I was paid twice by mistake by some network wide blockchain error and they gave me an option to choose whether to allow them to deduct that double spend from my current balance.
Undoubtedly I hit No.

So, you were informed that it was not a "promotion" as you had assumed, meaning you now know that that money was not intended for you, and yet you kept it anyhow?  As far as I'm concerned, keeping money that was not intentionally given to you makes you a thief.  At a minimum it makes you a dishonorable person with a poor sense of morals and ethics.

it'd be free money for me cuz I didnt screw up at any point, I withdrew my coins from my designated wallet, so whatever is there in my wallet is basically mine, right? NO, apparently some of you might have a different ethical explanation and so it seemed UNOCOIN did as well.

I was at work and suddenly this lady from Unocoin calls me up on Saturday to notify me that there has been a double spend on my account and if I liked I could repay them that extra 0.0182 which I withdrew from the account. I said, I'll get back to them after I have returned home and checked the issue.
I was jumbling up words and constantly kept saying 'sichu' instead of 'issue'. Kinda embarrassing.

Anyways, I got back home and thought why should I repay them? Not my fault that someone else screwed up!

So now twice you have refused to return money to someone that has informed you that they did not intentionally send to you?  Your ethics do not impress me.  I certainly would never want to do any business with anyone as dishonest and dishonorable as you.

on Monday morning (today) instead of filling up the order they decided to call me and give me an ultimatum.
Either allow them to deduct 0.0182 from my current order or my current order wont get filled.

You'd have to look at their terms of service to see if they have the right to do that.  In the U.S. a business can generally refuse to transaction with someone (as long as they are not discriminating based on race, gender, or religious belief).  If I were them, I wouldn't want to do any further business with someone of such low ethics and morals either.

But I dont want to pay for someone else's mistake.

Nobody is asking you to pay for someone else's mistake.  They are just asking you to pay back money that was never intended for you in the first place.

They're a business, they gotta expect some "leakage" from scenarios like this.

True.  When a business performs a risk analysis, they certainly do need to expect some "leakage" from thieves, and dishonest customers.  That doesn't make it "right", it just means that a business needs to charge enough fees from their honest customers to cover any potential loss they may experience from dishonest customers.  As such, all the other honest customers will be paying for this.

I can pay them, but why should I pay them for their website's mistake?

Because it's the right thing to do.

No matter how genuine that issue is. This is just 260 bucks today, what if I made a purchase which is larger than 20 times of that, would you think I'd still owe them money then ?

Yes.

You could have ordered 2 x 0.0182 BTC and thought everything went fine

Except that he knows that he didn't.  He admits that he didn't.  He knows that he received this money in error and has decided that he wants to keep it anyhow.

Also note the fact that the coins are now invested in BTCJAM I cant withdraw them untill the loan gets paid off by the borrower.

So to get 1000 bucks worth of Bitcoins I'd now have to spend 1260. (plus taxes offcourse)

That is your fault.  You failed to properly keep track of what you had received, and chose to use money that was never intended for you.  If you had recognized that you had already withdrawn those bitcoins once, then you would have realized that the bitcoins remaining in your account didn't belong to you and could have contacted their support and asked them to fix it.  Instead you tried to take advantage and took coins that you knew you had already taken once.

And they'd lose a regular customer.

Good.  If I were them, I wouldn't want a customer like you anyhow.

Being as reputed as you are over here I do value your opinion. Keep in mind this issue isnt solved yet and hence I turn to this community for advice on how to resolve it.

Yes ethically I am wrong. But I am also a small businessman trying his luck on the new 'Bitcoin' world, I have learned to pay for my mistakes, why shouldnt someone else pay for their mistakes as well ?
In my perspective, dishonesty and stealing would be when I would blatantly lie about something that I did and take someone else's property without their knowledge.


BUT

In Epay's case I was given a choice, whether to allow them to deduct from my current balance or let them allow me to keep those satoshi.

In Unocoin's case I received no such choices but rather ultimatums. These coins were a payment for a small cellphone recharge that I did. Before withdrawing the magical 0.0182 BTC (the second one) I did check the transaction hash that was provided to me multiple times. How is it my fault if the hash link leads me to a transaction not found page ?

Arent we all just opportunist ? Why is it right for someone to literally pay for trusting someone or pay for their mistakes while someone else can simply walk away without repercussions ?

Once again, I have created this post to get feedback from the community based on ethical grounds and logical grounds. I havent said that I wont pay them for the extra Bitcoins or I will pay them... that is still undecided and would only be solved upon Sathvik's input into this situation.

[turvarya]

I am not sure, if I really got the whole story, but what you describe at first has nothing to do with a double spend. Double spend doesn't mean, that you get paid twice. The second story also doesn't make much sense.
So, my guess is, that you are spreading FUD, maybe it is even a account, you bought, since you are lacking basic knowledge of Bitcoin

lol Unocoin accounts cant be bought, due to laws in India every account holder has to adher to strict KYC policies hence when I created the account on Unocoin I had my Passport / Telephone bill / Photo submitted and verified.

The first 'story' is related to the 'Unocoin' story because both are issues that deal with 'double spend'.

If I dont understand the basics of Bitcoin, I'd humbly request you to enlighten me.

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Double-spending

You have completely missed the point my friend.

My point is, that you are using the term "double spend" wrong at least in the first story.

I am just telling everyone what has been told to me by both the sites. I didnt learn about double spend before today, not even when epay sent me the payment twice. Regardless, I hope you are now clear about the 'stories'. Its just me who'd has to pay for someone else's mistake.

I see. You really just don't know better. Seeing your accounts age, I assumed, that you must have heard about double spend.
Sorry, for being that harsh.

My opinion on your story is, that you have to pay them back. like DH pointed, you are even legally obligated to do so in most countries.

[legendster]

Explain to them and work out a payment schedule. They will be likely more amenable to a resolution if you are willing to do your part.

As for my opinion you are not entitled to it and should return it back. The exchange also made a mistake so shouldn't expect immediate return. I think a late repayment after your investment returns is a fair solution.

No one needs a payment schedule to pay someone a pocket change amount of 260 bucks.
But is it ok for them to hold my current order as hostage and demand to fulfill the debated amount?

Also the price per coin has risen then, what should I pay them ?

260 bucks worth of Bitcoins at current rate of their site ?

or the original 0.0182 ? Which would cost more as per current market value.

[legendster]

I am not sure, if I really got the whole story, but what you describe at first has nothing to do with a double spend. Double spend doesn't mean, that you get paid twice. The second story also doesn't make much sense.
So, my guess is, that you are spreading FUD, maybe it is even a account, you bought, since you are lacking basic knowledge of Bitcoin

lol Unocoin accounts cant be bought, due to laws in India every account holder has to adher to strict KYC policies hence when I created the account on Unocoin I had my Passport / Telephone bill / Photo submitted and verified.

The first 'story' is related to the 'Unocoin' story because both are issues that deal with 'double spend'.

If I dont understand the basics of Bitcoin, I'd humbly request you to enlighten me.

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Double-spending

You have completely missed the point my friend.

My point is, that you are using the term "double spend" wrong at least in the first story.

I am just telling everyone what has been told to me by both the sites. I didnt learn about double spend before today, not even when epay sent me the payment twice. Regardless, I hope you are now clear about the 'stories'. Its just me who'd has to pay for someone else's mistake.

I see. You really just don't know better. Seeing your accounts age, I assumed, that you must have heard about double spend.
Sorry, for being that harsh.

My opinion on your story is, that you have to pay them back. like DH pointed, you are even legally obligated to do so in most countries.

Yes I was absent from the bitcoin community for over a year and I only started in mid 2012.

My next question would be even more simple.
What should I pay them ?
0.0182 bitcoins ?
or
260 INR Bucks ?

0.0182 at current market value costs more than what it did 2 days ago. And as seeing how I cant withdraw those 0.0182 BTC from BTCJAM, I'd have to resort to wiring them the money.

[DannyHamilton]

Yes ethically I am wrong.

Well, at least we agree on that point.

But I am also a small businessman trying his luck on the new 'Bitcoin' world

And this makes it okay to keep what isn't intended for you?

I have learned to pay for my mistakes, why shouldnt someone else pay for their mistakes as well?

They are paying for their mistakes every time a thief like you keeps what isn't rightfully yours.

In my perspective, dishonesty and stealing would be when I would blatantly lie about something that I did and take someone else's property without their knowledge.

I disagree.  I think it is also dishonest the theft to keep someone else's property with their knowledge but without their permission.

In Epay's case I was given a choice, whether to allow them to deduct from my current balance or let them allow me to keep those satoshi.

And the "right thing to do" was to return what wasn't intended for you in the first place.

In Unocoin's case I received no such choices but rather ultimatums. These coins were a payment for a small cellphone recharge that I did. Before withdrawing the magical 0.0182 BTC (the second one) I did check the transaction hash that was provided to me multiple times. How is it my fault if the hash link leads me to a transaction not found page?

It's not.  It's your fault if you withdraw money a second time that you know you already withdrew.  It's also your fault if you fail to keep track of your own finances and therefore fail to realize that you already withdrew that money.

Arent we all just opportunist?

That sounds like a fancy way of admitting that you are a thief, but hoping that it's "okay" because you think everybody is a thief.

Why is it right for someone to literally pay for trusting someone or pay for their mistakes while someone else can simply walk away without repercussions ?

There are always repercussions.  You might not see them or realize it, but evil does not exist in a vacuum.  You pay for your own mistakes, and you do what is right.  Or you suffer the consequences of being recognized as a dishonest, unethical, immoral person.

Once again, I have created this post to get feedback from the community based on ethical grounds and logical grounds.

And you have received my feedback.

I havent said that I wont pay them for the extra Bitcoins or I will pay them...

You should already have paid back both companies.  The fact that you didn't reflects on your character.

that is still undecided

It shouldn't be.

and would only be solved upon Sathvik's input into this situation.

Or upon you realizing that you are acting in a dishonest, immoral, unethical dishonorable way, and deciding to do the right thing after all.

[Muhammed Zakir]

You can pay either of them. Its not a high amount, so you should pay them instead of making a bad relation between you and company. You may need to use that exchange in future. Good luck!

   ~~MZ~~

[DannyHamilton]

But is it ok for them to hold my current order as hostage and demand to fulfill the debated amount?

No.  They should simply cancel your current order and tell you that they have no interest in doing any future business with someone of your character.

Also the price per coin has risen then, what should I pay them ?

260 bucks worth of Bitcoins at current rate of their site ?

or the original 0.0182 ? Which would cost more as per current market value.

The original 0.0182 BTC.  That is what you took, that is what you should return.

If you took a piece of art, and that art increased in value, you should still return the original piece of art.

[turvarya]

But is it ok for them to hold my current order as hostage and demand to fulfill the debated amount.

In my country it is not, but companies do it all the time  even government agencies.
You really shouldn't dig more into, who did what wrong, just try to resolve it.

What should I pay them ?
0.0182 bitcoins ?
or
260 INR Bucks ?

I am pretty sure, if you ask a court, it would decide, you have to pay 260 INR Bucks, since that is legal money(doesn't mean that BTC is illegal).
There was a case in Austria, where someone on ebay had to pay the market value of the car, since he couldn't provide the car, he just sold on ebay(it was more complicated, but I don't want to go into detail on that case)

[DannyHamilton]

0.0182 at current market value costs more than what it did 2 days ago.

Then you shouldn't have taken the withdrawal of those bitcoins.

And as seeing how I cant withdraw those 0.0182 BTC from BTCJAM, I'd have to resort to wiring them the money.

You should send the 0.0182 BTC.  That is what you took, that is what you owe them.

[DannyHamilton]

I am pretty sure, if you ask a court, it would decide, you have to pay 260 INR Bucks

Yes, that is what you might be required to pay if a court were to decide.  That doesn't make it the right thing to do.  The right thing to do is to return what isn't rightfully intended for you in the first place.

[legendster]

0.0182 at current market value costs more than what it did 2 days ago.

Then you shouldn't have taken the withdrawal of those bitcoins.

And as seeing how I cant withdraw those 0.0182 BTC from BTCJAM, I'd have to resort to wiring them the money.

You should send the 0.0182 BTC.  That is what you took, that is what you owe them.

I cant send them the 0.0182, their site's minimum purchase is capped at $16

[legendster]

I am going to give them a call and ask them what I need to pay them for their mistake and resolve this issue.

Will update in a few minutes.

[Muhammed Zakir]

I cant send them the 0.0182, their site's minimum purchase is capped at $16

Contact them or that lady on Skype and tell them to give a repayment address.

   ~~MZ~~

[legendster]

I cant send them the 0.0182, their site's minimum purchase is capped at $16

Contact them or that lady on Skype and tell them to give a repayment address.

   ~~MZ~~

The lady was on phone, Sathvik is on skype.
All (including their toll-free number) are unresponsive for the time being.

[legendster]

Just spoke to the lady on the cell Coinmonk had listed on their google listing (Not the Tollfree number).

She said they will let me know what to do soon.

Lets hope soon comes sooner than later cuz I gotta be somewhere else 'soon'.

[legendster]

Conclusion :

In the end Unocoin asked me to to wire the CURRENT value of 0.0182 BTC to their bank account.
The transaction is done from my part. They will create a custom buy order of 0.0182 BTC to reflect this INR transfer on the account.

Moral of the story is:
When you open an account with all your personal details submitted to an exchange; when you get free money on what is supposedly YOUR wallet designated by that exchange; on a network which is marketed as an irreversible mode of payment; You are basically handing these exchanges a leash tied to your neck which they can pull whenever they want and make you pay for their mistakes.
Dashingriddler is gonna have one great story to read when he comes home from his business trip.

I thank everyone who has taken their time to respond here and have consoled me to believe that this was the right thing to do.
I especially thank Danny and turvarya for assuming me to be an account stealer, a person with a despicable character, a thief, dishonest, unethical, immoral and a worthless customer and what not lol  So go on Bitcoin exchanges!! Keep screwing over your customers.

On a serious note I do thank them for their valuable contribution towards resolving this issue and making me comply to do the right thing to do. Dont construed my sarcasm to be anything other than just entertaining words. I do not hold a grudge over this issue and will continue to support Unocoin.

[sgk]

Conclusion :

-snip-

Glad to see everything sorted out; though I can't say you're the happy one here.

All that said, the mystery still remains for the transaction that vanished from block chain.

[turvarya]

Conclusion :

In the end Unocoin asked me to to wire the CURRENT value of 0.0182 BTC to their bank account.
The transaction is done from my part. They will create a custom buy order of 0.0182 BTC to reflect this INR transfer on the account.

Moral of the story is:
When you open an account with all your personal details submitted to an exchange; when you get free money on what is supposedly YOUR wallet designated by that exchange; on a network which is marketed as an irreversible mode of payment; You are basically handing these exchanges a leash tied to your neck which they can pull whenever they want and make you pay for their mistakes.
Dashingriddler is gonna have one great story to read when he comes home from his business trip.

I thank everyone who has taken their time to respond here and have consoled me to believe that this was the right thing to do.
I especially thank Danny and turvarya for assuming me to be an account stealer, a person with a despicable character, a thief, dishonest, unethical, immoral and a worthless customer and what not lol  So go on Bitcoin exchanges!! Keep screwing over your customers.

On a serious note I do thank them for their valuable contribution towards resolving this issue and making me comply to do the right thing to do. Dont construed my sarcasm to be anything other than just entertaining words. I do not hold a grudge over this issue and will continue to support Unocoin.

Do clear that up: I assumed you bought your Bitcointalk-account, not your Unocoin-account. I never heard about Unocoin before.

[legendster]

Conclusion :

-snip-

Glad to see everything sorted out; though I can't say you're the happy one here.

All that said, the mystery still remains for the transaction that vanished from block chain.

The mystery is a mystery and I need to dig more to figure out what went wrong, as turvarya pointed out earlier I didnt know any better.

But there is something that I strongly disagree which is bugging me since the last time I read it.

If you took a piece of art, and that art increased in value, you should still return the original piece of art.

This makes absolutely no sense, Bitcoin isnt a piece of art it is a currency!.
If someone accidentally paid me an amount I'd pay the amount back to them which they sent me by mistake, why should I be liable for the increase or decrease in the currency's purchasing power and why should I pay for it ?

[DannyHamilton]

This makes absolutely no sense, Bitcoin isnt a piece of art it is a currency!.
If someone accidentally paid me an amount I'd pay the amount back to them which they sent me by mistake,

Exactly.

They paid you 0.0182 BTC of currency.  Therefore, as you just stated, you should return 0.0182 BTC.

why should I be liable for the increase or decrease in the currency's purchasing power and why should I pay for it ?

You shouldn't.  The increase or decrease in purchasing power shouldn't matter at all.  You should pay back exactly what was sent to you, 0.0182 BTC.  I'd say the same if the exchange rate had dropped and 0.0182 BTC was only $0.01