Responsibility for double spend

[legendster]

So there has been an issue.

Kindly read with patience.

Last week something weird was happening all across the blockchain and various online wallet services.
People making a payment were suddenly loosing their payment history OR people receiving a payment were suddenly receiving another payment when the wallet is getting emptied out.

Basically the blockchain was duplicating some* transactions resulting in this double spend.

So last week, I was merrily spinning the wheel of luck all week on starsbit.com, and had made enough Satoshi's to receive the payment.
This was my first ever faucet claim and then this happened :


I got lucky, but not the usual way. The god of blockchain had decided to pay me twice for my 1st faucet claim.
At the time I thought it was a promo or something cuz I had no idea.

I went on to a second week of spinning the lucky wheels and starsbit.com but this time I also tried my luck at goldsday.com and coincollecting.ws

So by the time it was payout day I was pretty much expecting yet another double pay, instead I got this message from epay written in pinkish red, which basically stated that I was paid twice by mistake by some network wide blockchain error and they gave me an option to choose whether to allow them to deduct that double spend from my current balance.
Undoubtedly I hit No.

That was the end of it, my argument was simply, why should I pay for the mistakes of some random microwallet's site ? Maybe there wasnt a double spend from the network but rather a simple human error. Regardless I never got any more message about this issue again.

NOW the issue of double spend came back to bite me in the ass again but on a different site.

This time on Unocoin.

Last week I did a small mobile recharge for some random guy in the Indian child board here. See my trust score and the ref link here : https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=921756.0

I chose to receive the funds at Unocoin address because I was making a purchase of roughly $16 bucks worth of BTC on their site, I thought it'd be best if I were to combine the btc I got from the recharge and the one that I purchased and withdraw them together to another wallet. I did that and was done with it.

But then again I needed to purchase a bit more BTC by the end of the week and when I log in to check the rates I find that the 0.0182 BTC which I received for the mobile recharge is sitting alone in the wallet.

The first instinct was to check the previous transaction hash that I was provided by Unocoin



And this is where the link of that transaction hash takes me :

https://blockchain.info/tx-index/cd8ef5bf8e3978feb22b302ffb2ce8b772e9eb3ac10cdfd181405690a354ad8f




As you can see this worried me, and didnt look like the last double spend issue I faced. It simply looked like that the 0.0182 was left in my wallet due to some technical errors and I must re initiate a transfer.

I did that and chose to receive the funds in my cryptsy wallet and combined that amount with some left over btc which I had got by selling some Doges and then sent that to BTCJAM. Basically made sure that it doesnt get lost or linger away in any way in some unmonitored wallet of mine.


Transaction hash for my Cryptsy withdrawal :



Transaction hash for receiving it in my Cryptsy wallet
https://blockchain.info/address/1MBBLfntHMJJx8rQuSAGrJeyszKxrehaYV

Confirmation of my Cryptsy withdrawal





I was done with this issue as far as it concerned me and it didnt occur to me that this could essentially be the same double spend issue that I faced on epay a week earlier and even if it was it'd be free money for me cuz I didnt screw up at any point, I withdrew my coins from my designated wallet, so whatever is there in my wallet is basically mine, right? NO, apparently some of you might have a different ethical explanation and so it seemed UNOCOIN did as well.

I was at work and suddenly this lady from Unocoin calls me up on Saturday to notify me that there has been a double spend on my account and if I liked I could repay them that extra 0.0182 which I withdrew from the account. I said, I'll get back to them after I have returned home and checked the issue.
I was jumbling up words and constantly kept saying 'sichu' instead of 'issue'. Kinda embarrassing.

Anyways, I got back home and thought why should I repay them? Not my fault that someone else screwed up! I have already invested that little 0.018xx on my btcjam profile, if I were to repay that I'd have to buy more coins. It also occurred to me that this might be a matter of choice where they have asked me if I'd like to repay them - just like epay did - and I had made up my mind that I wont.

So instead I made another purchase of $16 from Unocoin on Saturday midnight knowing that it'll be filled on Monday. I paid them through instant bank transfer and went to bed.

But on Monday morning (today) instead of filling up the order they decided to call me and give me an ultimatum.
Either allow them to deduct 0.0182 from my current order or my current order wont get filled.
I had added the CEO of Unocoin Dashingriddler on my skype when I signed up on their platform. I told the lady on the phone that I'll talk it out with Sathvik (Dashing) and asked them not to deduct anything from my order.

I have sent a message to Sathvik on skype but as the lady on the phone said that he's currently out of station for some business meeting.

So now I think it'd be best to bring this issue into the light of the community members and have a general sense of opinion.
I am not blaming anyone for screwing up at this point. But I dont want to pay for someone else's mistake.


As expected, the general consensus is driven by more ethical reasons than logical.

Next question :

Is it ok for them to hold my current order as hostage and demand to fulfill the debated amount?

Also

The price per coin has risen then, what should I pay them ?

260 bucks worth of Bitcoins at current rate of their site ?

or

The original 0.0182 ? Which would cost more as per current market value.

(I would have to resort to wire them the money, but which amount should I send them ?)


Conclusion :

In the end Unocoin asked me to to wire the CURRENT value of 0.0182 BTC to their bank account.
The transaction is done from my part. They will create a custom buy order of 0.0182 BTC to reflect this INR transfer on the account.


Moral of the story is:
When you open an account with all your personal details submitted to an exchange; when you get free money on what is supposedly YOUR wallet designated by that exchange; on a network which is marketed as an irreversible mode of payment; You are basically handing these exchanges a leash tied to your neck which they can pull whenever they want and make you pay for their mistakes.
Dashingriddler is gonna have one great story to read when he comes home from his business trip.

I thank everyone who has taken their time to respond here and have consoled me to believe that this was the right thing to do.
I especially thank Danny and turvarya for assuming me to be an account stealer, a person with a despicable character, a thief, dishonest, unethical, immoral and a worthless customer and what not lol   So go on Bitcoin exchanges!! Keep screwing over your customers.

On a serious note I do thank them for their valuable contribution towards resolving this issue and making me comply to do the right thing to do. Dont construed my sarcasm to be anything other than just entertaining words. I do not hold a grudge over this issue and will continue to support Unocoin.

[Possum577]

They're a business, they gotta expect some "leakage" from scenarios like this.

[turvarya]

I am not sure, if I really got the whole story, but what you describe at first has nothing to do with a double spend. Double spend doesn't mean, that you get paid twice. The second story also doesn't make much sense.
So, my guess is, that you are spreading FUD, maybe it is even a account, you bought, since you are lacking basic knowledge of Bitcoin

[legendster]

They're a business, they gotta expect some "leakage" from scenarios like this.

Yes, they should. I am waiting for a response from the CEO (Dashing), I have sent him a link to this thread and created a link back thread under the Indian child board as well.

[legendster]

I am not sure, if I really got the whole story, but what you describe at first has nothing to do with a double spend. Double spend doesn't mean, that you get paid twice. The second story also doesn't make much sense.
So, my guess is, that you are spreading FUD, maybe it is even a account, you bought, since you are lacking basic knowledge of Bitcoin

lol Unocoin accounts cant be bought, due to laws in India every account holder has to adher to strict KYC policies hence when I created the account on Unocoin I had my Passport / Telephone bill / Photo submitted and verified.

The first 'story' is related to the 'Unocoin' story because both are issues that deal with 'double spend'.

If I dont understand the basics of Bitcoin, I'd humbly request you to enlighten me.

[buysellbitcoin]

Pay them back, if you can. If you can not, let them know this, but this may be start of bitter relation between you and company.
Everyone makes mistakes, it may be genuine code bug or manual error. If they are polite with their request you should pay them back.

But again, its all between you and Uno.

Regards



 

[legendster]

Pay them back, if you can. If you can not, let them know this, but this may be start of bitter relation between you and company.
Everyone makes mistakes, it may be genuine code bug or manual error. If they are polite with their request you should pay them back.

But again, its all between you and Uno.

Regards



 

Yes I fear it can lead to that. Especially with Coinsecure being a c2c platform and the prices so high, I'd be left with no choice but to switch to them if Unocoin decides to screw me over for INR 260 bucks.

I can pay them, but why should I pay them for their website's mistake ? No matter how genuine that issue is. This is just 260 bucks today, what if I made a purchase which is larger than 20 times of that, would you think I'd still owe them money then ?

[Aswan]

Are you sure it was a double spend? A double spend is usually used to make it seem like once has paid but in reality the coins will be conformed with another transaction. This lets the attacker (the one doing the double spend) get something for free if it is undetected.

However, it seems like starsbit didn't gain anything from doing it so why would they do a double spend? Have you asked them why they would do this?

Regarding your claim: It has not been proven that it is your fault. You could have ordered 2 x 0.0182 BTC and thought everything went fine while it didn't in this case UNICOIN would have denied you the ability to intervene right away by showing that you actually received the coins.
Also, they have a faulty system for identifying if funds actually arrived or not. It has been knows since the big malleability attacks that just looking for a TxID is not safe when operating a wallet service.

If they were able to prove it's your fault, then they'd be right to deduct the amount in question from your order, but if it is the way you explained, they haven't proven anything.

As I see it, they should pay you in full because thats the deal. You paid for a specific amount of BTC and as long as the order form didn't say that they will deduct something, they should not do so.

The 2 cases need to be handled separately by them!
They should fix their faulty detection system for incoming funds!
You should stop using them because they don't do as previously agreed upon!
Everyone should stop using them until they fixed their faulty system!

Edit: To make this clear: If they prove it was your fault, you should still pay them back, but not if they claim something without proof.

[legendster]

Are you sure it was a double spend? A double spend is usually used to make it seem like once has paid but in reality the coins will be conformed with another transaction. This lets the attacker (the one doing the double spend) get something for free if it is undetected.

However, it seems like starsbit didn't gain anything from doing it so why would they do a double spend? Have you asked them why they would do this?

I had no reason to ask starsbit anything the message was sent to me on epay dashboard. And after clicking NO, I wasnt contacted in anyway (they cant since they dont have any contact info anyway) and neither did I see any messages.

Regarding your claim: It has not been proven that it is your fault. You could have ordered 2 x 0.0182 BTC and thought everything went fine while it didn't in this case UNICOIN would have denied you the ability to intervene right away by showing that you actually received the coins.
Also, they have a faulty system for identifying if funds actually arrived or not. It has been knows since the big malleability attacks that just looking for a TxID is not safe when operating a wallet service.

The issue here is about the 0.0182 coins which I received from someone as a payment for a mobile recharge that I did for them, there was no order for 0.0182 because the minimum order quantity is 1000 Indian Bucks ($16).

A snapshot of my entire order history with Unocoin.

If they were able to prove it's your fault, then they'd be right to deduct the amount in question from your order, but if it is the way you explained, they haven't proven anything.

As I see it, they should pay you in full because thats the deal. You paid for a specific amount of BTC and as long as the order form didn't say that they will deduct something, they should not do so.

The 2 cases need to be handled separately by them!
They should fix their faulty detection system for incoming funds!
You should stop using them because they don't do as previously agreed upon!
Everyone should stop using them until they fixed their faulty system!

Edit: To make this clear: If they prove it was your fault, you should still pay them back, but not if they claim something without proof.

Again, I admit that I withdrew the coins. Coins that I received as a payment for a service that I provided to someone else.
At the time of my 2nd withdrawal I checked my PREVIOUS withdrawal of the 0.0182 which goes to 'transaction not found' page on blockchain, leading me to believe its the same money which remained in my wallet for some reason.

[sgk]

So now I think it'd be best to bring this issue into the light of the community members and have a general sense of opinion.

If I were you, I would let them take what is not mine. And I think you don't have a choice either, especially when they are in possession of some of your funds.

You can reject their claim but then you'll lose your fiat if they don't process your buy order.

[legendster]

So now I think it'd be best to bring this issue into the light of the community members and have a general sense of opinion.

If I were you, I would let them take what is not mine. And I think you don't have a choice either, especially when they are in possession of some of your funds.

You can reject their claim but then you'll lose your fiat if they don't process your buy order.

And they'd lose a regular customer.

Also note the fact that the coins are now invested in BTCJAM I cant withdraw them untill the loan gets paid off by the borrower.

So to get 1000 bucks worth of Bitcoins I'd now have to spend 1260. (plus taxes offcourse)

[sgk]

Again, I admit that I withdrew the coins. Coins that I received as a payment for a service that I provided to someone else.
At the time of my 2nd withdrawal I checked my PREVIOUS withdrawal of the 0.0182 which goes to 'transaction not found' page on blockchain, leading me to believe its the same money which remained in my wallet for some reason.

Moral issues apart, I am failing to understand the underlying issue with block chain here.

You're saying you have made 2 successful transactions of same amount and have also spent these coins elsewhere. Then how come one of these transactions is vanished from block chain?

[turvarya]

I am not sure, if I really got the whole story, but what you describe at first has nothing to do with a double spend. Double spend doesn't mean, that you get paid twice. The second story also doesn't make much sense.
So, my guess is, that you are spreading FUD, maybe it is even a account, you bought, since you are lacking basic knowledge of Bitcoin

lol Unocoin accounts cant be bought, due to laws in India every account holder has to adher to strict KYC policies hence when I created the account on Unocoin I had my Passport / Telephone bill / Photo submitted and verified.

The first 'story' is related to the 'Unocoin' story because both are issues that deal with 'double spend'.

If I dont understand the basics of Bitcoin, I'd humbly request you to enlighten me.

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Double-spending

[legendster]

Again, I admit that I withdrew the coins. Coins that I received as a payment for a service that I provided to someone else.
At the time of my 2nd withdrawal I checked my PREVIOUS withdrawal of the 0.0182 which goes to 'transaction not found' page on blockchain, leading me to believe its the same money which remained in my wallet for some reason.

Moral issues apart, I am failing to understand the underlying issue with block chain here.

You're saying you have made 2 successful transactions of same amount and have also spent these coins elsewhere. Then how come these transactions are vanished from block chain?

Exactly!  Hence thats why its called the 'double spend error'. -edit- according to some gyan guru this might not be the correct terminology.

And has nothing to do with me.

You can see for yourself. The last transaction hash leads to a 'transaction not found page'.
https://blockchain.info/tx-index/cd8ef5bf8e3978feb22b302ffb2ce8b772e9eb3ac10cdfd181405690a354ad8f

[legendster]

I am not sure, if I really got the whole story, but what you describe at first has nothing to do with a double spend. Double spend doesn't mean, that you get paid twice. The second story also doesn't make much sense.
So, my guess is, that you are spreading FUD, maybe it is even a account, you bought, since you are lacking basic knowledge of Bitcoin

lol Unocoin accounts cant be bought, due to laws in India every account holder has to adher to strict KYC policies hence when I created the account on Unocoin I had my Passport / Telephone bill / Photo submitted and verified.

The first 'story' is related to the 'Unocoin' story because both are issues that deal with 'double spend'.

If I dont understand the basics of Bitcoin, I'd humbly request you to enlighten me.

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Double-spending

You have completely missed the point my friend.

[turvarya]

I am not sure, if I really got the whole story, but what you describe at first has nothing to do with a double spend. Double spend doesn't mean, that you get paid twice. The second story also doesn't make much sense.
So, my guess is, that you are spreading FUD, maybe it is even a account, you bought, since you are lacking basic knowledge of Bitcoin

lol Unocoin accounts cant be bought, due to laws in India every account holder has to adher to strict KYC policies hence when I created the account on Unocoin I had my Passport / Telephone bill / Photo submitted and verified.

The first 'story' is related to the 'Unocoin' story because both are issues that deal with 'double spend'.

If I dont understand the basics of Bitcoin, I'd humbly request you to enlighten me.

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Double-spending

You have completely missed the point my friend.

My point is, that you are using the term "double spend" wrong at least in the first story.

[legendster]

I am not sure, if I really got the whole story, but what you describe at first has nothing to do with a double spend. Double spend doesn't mean, that you get paid twice. The second story also doesn't make much sense.
So, my guess is, that you are spreading FUD, maybe it is even a account, you bought, since you are lacking basic knowledge of Bitcoin

lol Unocoin accounts cant be bought, due to laws in India every account holder has to adher to strict KYC policies hence when I created the account on Unocoin I had my Passport / Telephone bill / Photo submitted and verified.

The first 'story' is related to the 'Unocoin' story because both are issues that deal with 'double spend'.

If I dont understand the basics of Bitcoin, I'd humbly request you to enlighten me.

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Double-spending

You have completely missed the point my friend.

My point is, that you are using the term "double spend" wrong at least in the first story.

I am just telling everyone what has been told to me by both the sites. I didnt learn about double spend before today, not even when epay sent me the payment twice. Regardless, I hope you are now clear about the 'stories'. Its just me who'd has to pay for someone else's mistake.

[DannyHamilton]

I got this message from epay written in pinkish red, which basically stated that I was paid twice by mistake by some network wide blockchain error and they gave me an option to choose whether to allow them to deduct that double spend from my current balance.
Undoubtedly I hit No.

So, you were informed that it was not a "promotion" as you had assumed, meaning you now know that that money was not intended for you, and yet you kept it anyhow?  As far as I'm concerned, keeping money that was not intentionally given to you makes you a thief.  At a minimum it makes you a dishonorable person with a poor sense of morals and ethics.

it'd be free money for me cuz I didnt screw up at any point, I withdrew my coins from my designated wallet, so whatever is there in my wallet is basically mine, right? NO, apparently some of you might have a different ethical explanation and so it seemed UNOCOIN did as well.

I was at work and suddenly this lady from Unocoin calls me up on Saturday to notify me that there has been a double spend on my account and if I liked I could repay them that extra 0.0182 which I withdrew from the account. I said, I'll get back to them after I have returned home and checked the issue.
I was jumbling up words and constantly kept saying 'sichu' instead of 'issue'. Kinda embarrassing.

Anyways, I got back home and thought why should I repay them? Not my fault that someone else screwed up!

So now twice you have refused to return money to someone that has informed you that they did not intentionally send to you?  Your ethics do not impress me.  I certainly would never want to do any business with anyone as dishonest and dishonorable as you.

on Monday morning (today) instead of filling up the order they decided to call me and give me an ultimatum.
Either allow them to deduct 0.0182 from my current order or my current order wont get filled.

You'd have to look at their terms of service to see if they have the right to do that.  In the U.S. a business can generally refuse to transaction with someone (as long as they are not discriminating based on race, gender, or religious belief).  If I were them, I wouldn't want to do any further business with someone of such low ethics and morals either.

But I dont want to pay for someone else's mistake.

Nobody is asking you to pay for someone else's mistake.  They are just asking you to pay back money that was never intended for you in the first place.

They're a business, they gotta expect some "leakage" from scenarios like this.

True.  When a business performs a risk analysis, they certainly do need to expect some "leakage" from thieves, and dishonest customers.  That doesn't make it "right", it just means that a business needs to charge enough fees from their honest customers to cover any potential loss they may experience from dishonest customers.  As such, all the other honest customers will be paying for this.

I can pay them, but why should I pay them for their website's mistake?

Because it's the right thing to do.

No matter how genuine that issue is. This is just 260 bucks today, what if I made a purchase which is larger than 20 times of that, would you think I'd still owe them money then ?

Yes.

You could have ordered 2 x 0.0182 BTC and thought everything went fine

Except that he knows that he didn't.  He admits that he didn't.  He knows that he received this money in error and has decided that he wants to keep it anyhow.

Also note the fact that the coins are now invested in BTCJAM I cant withdraw them untill the loan gets paid off by the borrower.

So to get 1000 bucks worth of Bitcoins I'd now have to spend 1260. (plus taxes offcourse)

That is your fault.  You failed to properly keep track of what you had received, and chose to use money that was never intended for you.  If you had recognized that you had already withdrawn those bitcoins once, then you would have realized that the bitcoins remaining in your account didn't belong to you and could have contacted their support and asked them to fix it.  Instead you tried to take advantage and took coins that you knew you had already taken once.

And they'd lose a regular customer.

Good.  If I were them, I wouldn't want a customer like you anyhow.

[Fernandez]

Explain to them and work out a payment schedule. They will be likely more amenable to a resolution if you are willing to do your part.

As for my opinion you are not entitled to it and should return it back. The exchange also made a mistake so shouldn't expect immediate return. I think a late repayment after your investment returns is a fair solution.

[saddampbuh]

nothing to do with double spend and pay them back or you're a thief