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Author Topic: Bitfinex exchange owner admits to using inside information to trade on own platf  (Read 3926 times)
manselr
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January 21, 2015, 04:46:11 PM
 #21

I think we need a decentralized transparent exchange

I think we need a decentralized transparent exchange
Well ideally it would be decentralized, thats what Satoshi intended with Bitcoin, decentralization.
As far as Bitifinex goes, I used to wonder about their legitimacy, but their volume is pretty high, so they are making good money from commissions, and it is in their better interest to continue running the exchange well than to abscond with depositors' funds. Not sure about legal recourse if they failed, but Hong Kong has a well-deserved reputation for fair business practices. Note: Bitfinex is definitely in Hong Kong because the SWIFT number used in routing is location-specific.

I dont know about the inside information thing tho.
General_A
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January 21, 2015, 05:00:39 PM
 #22

I think we need a decentralized transparent exchange

I think we need a decentralized transparent exchange
Well ideally it would be decentralized, thats what Satoshi intended with Bitcoin, decentralization.
As far as Bitifinex goes, I used to wonder about their legitimacy, but their volume is pretty high, so they are making good money from commissions, and it is in their better interest to continue running the exchange well than to abscond with depositors' funds. Not sure about legal recourse if they failed, but Hong Kong has a well-deserved reputation for fair business practices. Note: Bitfinex is definitely in Hong Kong because the SWIFT number used in routing is location-specific.

I dont know about the inside information thing tho.
Unfortunately there is a real world out there owned by real people.... Or should I say owned by real banks Wink

(that isn't a dig at you)

Flashman
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January 21, 2015, 05:17:35 PM
 #23

I think we need a decentralized transparent exchange

I think we need a decentralized transparent exchange

This is fun.

TL;DR See Spot run. Run Spot run. .... .... Freelance interweb comedian, for teh lulz >>> 1MqAAR4XkJWfDt367hVTv5SstPZ54Fwse6

Bitcoin Custodian: Keeping BTC away from weak heads since Feb '13, adopter of homeless bitcoins.
redsn0w
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January 21, 2015, 05:39:37 PM
 #24

I think we need a decentralized transparent exchange

I think we need a decentralized transparent exchange


 Grin  this is my real post :


"I think we need a decentralized exchange , for trade directly  buyer <> seller without any intermediary  (like bitsquare)." 

 Maybe one day....
General_A
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January 21, 2015, 05:46:47 PM
 #25

I think we need a decentralized transparent exchange

I think we need a decentralized transparent exchange


 Grin  this is my real post :


"I think we need a decentralized exchange , for trade directly  buyer <> seller without any intermediary  (like bitsquare)." 

 Maybe one day....
My bad - edited....

D05GTO
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January 21, 2015, 08:03:42 PM
 #26

I think we need a decentralized exchange , for trade directly  buyer <> seller without any intermediary  (like bitsquare).

I think we need a decentralized transparent exchange


There is already a transparent exchange..  Atomic-Trade.com

Just look at the real time liquidity page https://www.atomic-trade.com/liquidity  .  Just needs volume but people obviously don't like to use transparent exchanges without fake volume. 


 
 
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General_A
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January 21, 2015, 08:16:37 PM
 #27

I think we need a decentralized exchange , for trade directly  buyer <> seller without any intermediary  (like bitsquare).

I think we need a decentralized transparent exchange


There is already a transparent exchange..  Atomic-Trade.com

Just look at the real time liquidity page https://www.atomic-trade.com/liquidity  .  Just needs volume but people obviously don't like to use transparent exchanges without fake volume. 
No fiat thought, It would be good to see flows between BTC and fiat day by day, month by month etc.

WTrader
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January 21, 2015, 08:35:02 PM
 #28

Ask yourself - in an unregulated, unsupervised, and completely unaccountable environment, why would anyone NOT do this?

The entire idea of markets is that participants and actors are constantly competing for the bigger share of the pie and/or creating bigger portions then fighting over the slices. Either way, it's all a competition.

COMPETITION.

He just played and won the game according to the rules of the market - that is, no rules at all. Aside from anyone's idea of 'honest trading' which frankly without agreed and standardized regulation, it just an individual preference.

Enforcement, mutual social agreement call law and regulations are inevitable basic flow of human nature. Question is how you handle it, not whether you can do without it. Same as everything else people normally consider 'oppressed' by.


Vast majority of these 'problems' are of crypto community's own making. Get out there and join/work with rest of the society, instead of screaming from your soapbox about how revolutionary you are.
Agestorzrxx
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January 23, 2015, 11:01:52 AM
 #29

LOL, I can bet every exchange involve  insider trading.
General_A
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January 23, 2015, 11:21:16 AM
 #30

Ask yourself - in an unregulated, unsupervised, and completely unaccountable environment, why would anyone NOT do this?

The entire idea of markets is that participants and actors are constantly competing for the bigger share of the pie and/or creating bigger portions then fighting over the slices. Either way, it's all a competition.

COMPETITION.

He just played and won the game according to the rules of the market - that is, no rules at all. Aside from anyone's idea of 'honest trading' which frankly without agreed and standardized regulation, it just an individual preference.

Enforcement, mutual social agreement call law and regulations are inevitable basic flow of human nature. Question is how you handle it, not whether you can do without it. Same as everything else people normally consider 'oppressed' by.
Totally agreed. I know regulation these days is a tool which serves the wealthy but it wasn't always that way. I am all for regulation as long as its by the people, for the people, enforced by the people. Just I can't see that happening again.

In fact after getting into Liberalism for just a little while I was against regulation and had a debate with my father on the issue. He actually made me change my mind. The wealth gap would be 10x larger if it wasn't for some kind of regulation and moderate tax policies. You can see this in the period 1800-1910 through out Europe where 1% owned 60%/70% of the nations wealth. Progressive polices developed between 1910 and 1960s put an end to such wealth disparity (+2 world wars and the great depression) and for the better I would argue. We would have no middle class today if it wasn't for this fundamental shift in national policies observed throughout the west.

It actually makes my blood boil when citizens from less privileged backgrounds argue that somehow letting fat cats do whatever the hell they want is going to be for the betterment of society. The sad fact is that policy makers have been making a u-turn since the 70's and 80's for the benefit of a select few (similar to policies adopted throughout the 19th century) and since we have seen a trend reversal in wealth disparity.

You can literally guarantee that, without a change of course, the 21st century is going to give rise to the importance of inheritance for wealth once again.   

mayax (OP)
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January 23, 2015, 12:43:18 PM
 #31

LOL, I can bet every exchange involve  insider trading.

Yes but is it ok to manipulate the price as they want? Smiley

Keep pumping money in them, fools Smiley

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=660948.0;all

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2t3p7f/xpost_from_rbitcoinmarkets_bitfinex_cso_phillip_g/

www.google.com/search?q=bitfinex+front+running+site:reddit.com

www.google.com/search?q=bitfinex+front+running+site:bitcointalk.org
B.A.S.
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January 23, 2015, 01:12:51 PM
 #32

I'm not fine with the insider trading, but I almost consider this to be the price of entry into the BTC world. I can live with it. It is going to happen when the market is unregulated. What I am really not okay with is price manipulation. Knowing if something is going up or down is one thing, but knowing that and then adjusting the price as well is not okay.

Decentralized exchanging exists. Use LocalBitcoins. The very meaning of decentralized does not require a huge exchange platform. Exchanges are in it to make money, not play trust games for fun and the love of BTC.
mayax (OP)
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January 24, 2015, 01:44:59 AM
 #33

well, tben you agree with the price manipulation and to lose the funds as well Smiley

MT gox did that without any problem, All the BIG exchangers are faking the transactions and manipulating the price.

It's so funny to see these videos:  Smiley

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRnCuzAOJCA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awU8c8fN2LI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xE5wr0ejWLw

oblivi
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January 24, 2015, 01:56:46 AM
 #34

well, tben you agree with the price manipulation and to lose the funds as well Smiley

MT gox did that without any problem, All the BIG exchangers are faking the transactions and manipulating the price.

It's so funny to see these videos:  Smiley

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRnCuzAOJCA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awU8c8fN2LI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xE5wr0ejWLw


Do you think the new exchange by the Winklevii will also be manipulated? thats why I want decentralization, its so difficult to trust people these days lol.
DannyHamilton
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January 24, 2015, 09:08:25 AM
 #35

Any unregulated unaudited exchange can engage in insider trading completely risk free very easily.  They can make a lot of money doing so.  It is so easy to do, and so easy to hide, that it would surprise me if any of them are not doing it.  This is one of several reasons that I avoid using any online exchanges.
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January 24, 2015, 09:11:34 AM
 #36

Any unregulated unaudited exchange can engage in insider trading completely risk free very easily.  They can make a lot of money doing so.  It is so easy to do, and so easy to hide, that it would surprise me if any of them are not doing it.  This is one of several reasons that I avoid using any online exchanges.

Regulated and audited markets are just as corrupted if not more.
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January 24, 2015, 09:22:06 AM
 #37

Any unregulated unaudited exchange can engage in insider trading completely risk free very easily.  They can make a lot of money doing so.  It is so easy to do, and so easy to hide, that it would surprise me if any of them are not doing it.  This is one of several reasons that I avoid using any online exchanges.

Regulated and audited markets are just as corrupted if not more.
But these practices conducted in regulated markets IS often quote on quote 'illegal'. Shame the securities and exchange commissioners are usually in on the act too.

DannyHamilton
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January 24, 2015, 09:31:58 AM
 #38

Regulated and audited markets are just as corrupted if not more.

With the proper regulations engaging in the simplest insider trading can become "not worth the risk".  The exchange risks a huge long term profit in exchange for a small short term gain.  It can still happen if the proper audits aren't in place, but at least the incentive is watered down if not eliminated entirely.

With third party audits from a trusted auditor, it becomes far more difficult (and more expensive) to hide the insider trading.
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January 24, 2015, 09:39:20 AM
 #39

Regulated and audited markets are just as corrupted if not more.

With the proper regulations engaging in the simplest insider trading can become "not worth the risk".  The exchange risks a huge long term profit in exchange for a small short term gain.  It can still happen if the proper audits aren't in place, but at least the incentive is watered down if not eliminated entirely.

With third party audits from a trusted auditor, it becomes far more difficult (and more expensive) to hide the insider trading.
Agreed - though I would argue that must exchanges do participate in insider trading. Example: High frequency trading is only available if select parties have 'inside' information unavailable to the majority of participants.

DannyHamilton
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January 24, 2015, 10:05:06 AM
Last edit: January 24, 2015, 10:20:33 AM by DannyHamilton
 #40

Agreed - though I would argue that must exchanges do participate in insider trading. Example: High frequency trading is only available if select parties have 'inside' information unavailable to the majority of participants.

Whether "high frequency" trading should be considered "insider" trading is a philosophical debate that depends a lot on what you mean by "insider" and what it is that you don't like about "insider trading".  I'm not going to get into such a philosophical debate at the moment (and I'm not going to indicate in this post which side of the debate I tend to agree with more).

However, when it comes to the specific type of "insider trading" I'm talking about where the exchange itself can easily take advantage with 0 risk, I'm specifically talking about using knowledge about orders that are being added to the order book before those orders are public knowledge.  With "high frequency" trading, the traders know information faster than those that aren't a selected participant, but they still don't know the information before it is in the order book.

The exchange however receives a request to add an order to the order book from a user.  At this point, their software knows about this order (and other orders) that WILL BE a part of the order book in a moment, but isn't a part of the order book yet.  This puts them in a position to make automatic trading decisions that guarantee a risk free profit.  They can effectively roll back time and place their orders before (or after) the orders that are being added to the order book, making sure that the orders are filled in a specific order that guarantees that they come out ahead with no risk to themselves at all.

As an extremely simple example:

Albert places a BUY order for 10 BTC at $250 each ($2500 order).
A fraction of a second later, Bob places a SELL order for 10 BTC at $249 each ($2490 order).

Under normal circumstances Albert's BUY order enters the order book, then Bob's SELL order fills Albert's BUY order.  Albert gains 10 BTC from Bob, and Bob gains $2500 BTC from Albert. The exchange gets a small fee from both of them for maintaining the order book and trading engine.

Under circumstances where the exchange is engaging in "insider trading", Albert's BUY order is held in memory for a fraction of a second before being added to the order book.  The software sees Bob's order coming in and holds that in memory as well.  The exchange then adds Bob's transaction to the order book first, and inserts their own BUY order to buy all 10 BTC from Bob at $249.  They then allow Albert's order into the order book and immediately following it they add their own order to SELL 10 BTC at $250.  Now Albert has received his 10 BTC, and paid $2500 for them, but Bob only received $2490.  The remaining $10 goes to the exchange completely risk free since they knew that both transactions were entering the order book and could arrange them to their own benefit.  Then on top of that, the exchange gets a small fee from both of them.

With many transactions being added to the order book, this process can be repeated all day long completely automated.  The exchange can essentially take money out of the pockets of the people placing market orders without the users ever realizing it.
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