Money is the root of all evil

[evoorhees]

Actually, commerce predates money by thousands of years.  Money was invented to account for debt, not wealth.

Money was not invented.

Money is a natural phenomenon of human interaction - it is intrinsic to barter, it is that thing most commonly bartered for. Commerce cannot predate money by more than a handful of trades.

[1715035705]

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[Ragnar17]

Money is not the root of all evil. The love of money is not the root of all evil. "Love" is what you value utterly and entirely...I love money for its value and for what it stands for. Im just going to guess that most people here "love" bitcoin for what it stands for and for its value. Is bitcoin the root of all evil? 

[smoothie]

I think you got the saying wrong.


It is:

THE LOVE OF MONEY IS THE ROOT OF ALL EVIL.

Money is just a tool if you use it correctly and for the right purposes.

Herp derp?

Or is it the love of money that’s the root of all evil? To love a thing is to know and love its nature. To love money is to know and love the fact that money is the creation of the best power within you, and your passkey to trade your effort for the effort of the best among men. It’s the person who would sell his soul for a bitcent, who is loudest in proclaiming his hatred of money–and he has good reason to hate it. The lovers of money are willing to work for it. They know they are able to deserve it.

TL; DR

I just read title...

[kjj]

Actually, commerce predates money by thousands of years.  Money was invented to account for debt, not wealth.

Money was not invented.

Money is a natural phenomenon of human interaction - it is intrinsic to barter, it is that thing most commonly bartered for. Commerce cannot predate money by more than a handful of trades.

Sorry, the evidence does not support your assertion.  summary, with a link to the book.

Barter came first, then debt, then money.

My forum avatar is a Sumerian word (amagi) meaning "freedom".  Literally, the first sign (ama) means "mother" and the second sign (gi₄) is the verb "to restore".  Together, they are an idiom understood to mean freedom.  Sumerians had a complex economic system centered around their temples.  Writing itself was invented in the temples of Sumer to facilitate exactly this accounting of debts.  People would get themselves into debt and end up essentially selling themselves into slavery to settle up.  Over time, this turned out to be a problem, because people don't like being slaves, so if there were too many, they had a tendency to revolt and wreck up the place.  So, the jubilee was invented, where debts were wiped out, slaves set free (and able to go home to their mothers, hence the idiom), etc, every few years or so.

This was all well established at least 2000 years before money was invented.  And for all we know, even thousands of years earlier (it is really hard to pin down intangible concepts like debt prior to the invention of writing, but it is very clear that writing was invented for accounting).

[LightRider]

Money is a tool of exchange, which can’t exist unless there are goods produced and men able to produce them.

And what happens when the goods and services are provided by machines? What use does money have then?

[Stardust]

Religion is the root of all evil.

[Elwar]

Money is a tool of exchange, which can’t exist unless there are goods produced and men able to produce them.

And what happens when the goods and services are provided by machines? What use does money have then?

Then money will become a tool of exchange for the machines.

[herzmeister]

And what happens when the goods and services are provided by machines? What use does money have then?

Who owns the machines?

[TheButterZone]

Evil is the root of all fiat.

[LightRider]

And what happens when the goods and services are provided by machines? What use does money have then?

Who owns the machines?

No one.

[herzmeister]

No one.

If "no one" owns the machines, "no one" has built or will build the machines.

If the Zeitgeist folks still wonder why their Utopia is not implemented already, here is the answer.

[Stardust]

Then money will become a tool of exchange for the machines.

That will be highly inefficient. If we get to that point (hopefully we'll do), money (bitcoin) could be used for gambling, originals of art, and things that are truly unique or can't be replicated.

I wonder if someday Satoshi's paper notes will be worth thousands of bitcoins.

[Stardust]

And what happens when the goods and services are provided by machines? What use does money have then?

Who owns the machines?

No one.

I would like too to get to that point, but it begs the question, how will "no one" own the machines?

[drakahn]

And what happens when the goods and services are provided by machines? What use does money have then?

Who owns the machines?

No one.

I would like too to get to that point, but it begs the question, how will "no one" own the machines?

The same way as no one owns bitcoin - one hell of a clever idea that takes off faster than it can be stopped

[chrisrico]

But a machine is more than idea. It is a physical manifestation made up of scarce resources.

[Elwar]

The same way as no one owns bitcoin - one hell of a clever idea that takes off faster than it can be stopped

No one owns bitcoin?

Do the miners not own the BTC they receive for their work? Do I not own the BTC in my wallet?

[drakahn]

The same way as no one owns bitcoin - one hell of a clever idea that takes off faster than it can be stopped

No one owns bitcoin?

Do the miners not own the BTC they receive for their work? Do I not own the BTC in my wallet?

Bitcoins are not bitcoin
but perhaps "everyone" is better to say than "noone" with the same end result

And if the solution to having a physical machine crowdbuilt for the crowd was easy than it would have been done already

[pusle]

Money is a tool of exchange, which can’t exist unless there are goods produced and men able to produce them.

And what happens when the goods and services are provided by machines? What use does money have then?

Then the free market will self regulate  and the human population will shrink to the number that can be employed to service the machines! 

but then the number of machines needed will shrink coz there are less people left needing products and then ....   

[LightRider]

Money is a tool of exchange, which can’t exist unless there are goods produced and men able to produce them.

And what happens when the goods and services are provided by machines? What use does money have then?

Then the free market will self regulate  and the human population will shrink to the number that can be employed to service the machines! 

but then the number of machines needed will shrink coz there are less people left needing products and then ....   

And why would population have to shrink when machines are a multiplicative force on production volume, efficiency and quality?

[chrisrico]

LightRider, I agree that the population wouldn't shrink. So let's say humans, due to very efficient production, want for nothing and have much more leisure time. Let's say that in his leisure time, one person creates beautiful artwork that appeals to a huge audience. How does he determine who gets to own his art, and what do they give him in exchange?