10 months on... About the Bytecoin (BCN) ninjamine

[Bizmark13]

I've heard many people say that Bytecoin (BCN) was 82 percent premined. Technically it wasn't a premine but something called a "ninjamine". A premine would be visible in the blockchain and the code. You would see something like "Initial block = 100,000 coins". Instead, it's a ninjamine because very few people knew about it during its initial mining phase when most of the coins were created in 2012 and 2013. Bitcoin was arguably also ninjamined because most of the initial mining took place within a small group that was shielded from the outside world. Bitcoin became known to the wider public in 2011. Bytecoin in 2014. Hence why Satoshi has almost 1 million coins. Bitcoin's small group was a cryptography mailing list frequented by geeks. Bytecoin's small group was the deep web.

If Satoshi was a scammer who was intent on destroying the reputation of his coin, then he could have dumped all his coins on an exchange and made a lot of fiat in the process. But Satoshi wasn't a scammer, and Bitcoin wasn't a pump and dump scheme. Six years have passed since the creation of Bitcoin and Satoshi could have dumped his coins at anytime during this period but he didn't. Thus those 1 million coins are still untouched to this day.

If the Bytecoin devs were scammers, then wouldn't we have witnessed large dumping of the coin by now? Does anyone know if the 82 percent ninjamine was left untouched just like Satoshi's stash is still untouched today or have the coins moved? We know that the value of Bitcoin won't come crashing down to zero because we know that Satoshi is a benevolent character who won't destroy his creation for a quick buck. And six years of blockchain data proves this. After 10 months has passed with no evidence of a scam, perhaps we can begin to say that the same is also true for the Bytecoin devs?

Disclaimer: I own both BCN and XMR and a few other CryptoNote coins. I decided to post this because I saw that BCN has recently overtaken XMR in the coin rankings which is a bit surprising although I guess the ninjamine probably helps. IMO competition is good for all coins.

[Rough]

Instead, it's a ninjamine because very few people knew about it during its initial mining phase when most of the coins were created in 2012 and 2013.

That may be true. It certainly seems that no one on BCT forums knew about Bytecoin. It may have been a few people but if many of them were like me, they didn't know the Bytecoin devs and didn't have an account with BCT. I only knew of two others on the 4chan thread where I got my binaries and they were both English and also, as far as I could tell, like me, not really into crypto at the time. You can't say it was 'shielded' from the world - someone at the IPExpo in London showed me the link with the binaries!

I am guessing that a hell of a lot of coins mined early are either lost or forgotten about. I only recovered mine after I joined BCT and got help with my wallet.

Anyway, thanks for an interesting and measured (for Bytecoin topics!) post.  

[fluffypony]

You're approaching this from the assumption that the story of their release date is true. Let us take a look at why we should not approach it from that perspective:

1. At this juncture there are no known entities who have stepped forward and provided any reasonable claim that Bytecoin existed prior to March, 2014. I'm not talking about purchased accounts on Bitcointalk, I'm talking about individuals who have a reputation they can stake on such a claim.

2. At the very least, one would expect (were their "deep web" release claims to be true) that there would be darknet market operators who would have been approached by users in the early days. It is inconceivable that with their claims of "mining teams", claimed usage on Tor sites, and many alleged users, that not a single one bothered to say "hey I wonder if the Silk Road will be interested in this untraceable and unlinkable cryptocurrency". By the time Bytecoin allegedly launched in July 2012, the Silk Road was very well known (at least since Gawker's article in June of 2011, and even before that when it was mentioned by altoid on Bitcointalk in January of 2011). The original Silk Road forums (the complete contents of which can be found in the StExo backup or searched via The Hub on Tor) contain absolutely no mention of Bytecoin.

3. In deference to the previous poster's claim, a search of 4chandata.org, 4chanarchive.net, or any other 4chan archive site unsurprisingly reveals no mention of Bytecoin.

As to whether or not they've dumped their premine, given the unbelievably low Bytecoin exchange volume I simply think they haven't been able to. In order to dump a premine you have to have buyers, otherwise who are you selling it to? Leaving aside HitBTC, which is known to be untrustworthy and filled with fake trades (1 2 3), Bytecoin does about $2/day in volume. The most heavily traded day was June 21 when they did around 1.5 BTC in volume at a price of around 10 satoshi per Bytecoin. In the 245 days it has been listed on Poloniex, even if they were at peak every single day they would only have been able to dump 3 675 000 000 Bytecoins of their stash of 147 882 114 539 Bytecoins, which is 2.49%. Given that they're not at peak, the best they could have achieved over the past 245 days is a couple of hundred USD.

Edit: forgot to add, the only coin "rankings" worth looking at are CoinGecko. If you're merely looking at market capitalisation then you also need to use CoinMarketCap's non-mineable/premine filter, but frankly there's not much value in market capitalisation metrics without taking other things into account (eg. market momentum, trade volume, etc.)

[J1mb0]

Oh! Here we go! 

The second that a reasonable thread about Bytecoin appears in the Alts section, the Monero crew jump in with their tired propaganda.

I wonder why they don't just get on and develop their own clone of Bytecoin instead of wasting folks time on BCT with their endless inane threads and topics.

If you hadn't noticed, Fluffy, the market values Bytecoin higher than Monero. Like OP I have a XMR and BCN bag but I am sick and tired of the Monero crew damaging cryptonote.

[Rough]

You're approaching this from the assumption that the story of their release date is true. Let us take a look at why we should not approach it from that perspective:

3. In deference to the previous poster's claim, a search of 4chandata.org, 4chanarchive.net, or any other 4chan archive site unsurprisingly reveals no mention of Bytecoin.

It was definitely an onion site. I was a network engineer at the time. Just playing around with Tor. I had heard of Bitcoin but was not particularly into crypto at all. The guy I met at the expo was also interested in Tor and during our session he gave me the onion link to the forum thread as an aside, really. At the time Bitcoin was over 10$ and so I thought 'What the hell!' and gave the coin a good run - mining it on my laptop up to around December 2012. Around that time I got a new contract and completely forgot about cryptocurrencies and Bytecoin for a long time after until I hit on Bitcointalk.

Btw - from my time on BCT and ALT - I can see why people get upset easily! Since I started exploring Alts more closely it is easy to see how the conspiracy theorists get a hold. Mainly because if it looks suspicious it usually is! 

[fluffypony]

Oh! Here we go! 

The second that a reasonable thread about Bytecoin appears in the Alts section, the Monero crew jump in with their tired propaganda.

I wonder why they don't just get on and develop their own clone of Bytecoin instead of wasting folks time on BCT with their endless inane threads and topics.

If you hadn't noticed, Fluffy, the market values Bytecoin higher than Monero. Like OP I have a XMR and BCN bag but I am sick and tired of the Monero crew damaging cryptonote.

There's no propaganda in the facts above. They are not skewed nor twisted, and replicating my searches of the Silk Road 1 forum or of the various 4chan archive sites is a trivial exercise for the reader.

You'll note that in what I wrote I never mentioned CryptoNote nor did I mention Monero. I spoke only of Bytecoin.

We absolutely do give kudos to the mathematician(s) behind the CryptoNote cryptography (and who we'd love to have on the Monero Research Lab panel), and credit does also have to go to the developer(s) who produces the CryptoNote reference code in the 7 months at the end of 2013 / beginning of 2014. If the original Bytecoin developers were involved in the creation of the reference code, then those kudos and credit extend to them up to that point, but we absolutely do not give credit for their attempt to fleece the cryptocurrency community.

On a more personal note, I think we've already demonstrated that there have been big flaws in both the cryptography (see: MRL-0001) and in the code (see: MRL-0002), so how about YOU stop trying to push the agenda of a failed scam and give credit where credit is due? I thought as much.

[Bizmark13]

I am guessing that a hell of a lot of coins mined early are either lost or forgotten about. I only recovered mine after I joined BCT and got help with my wallet.

This is possible. Many of the bitcoins that were mined during its early days are now lost forever.

As to whether or not they've dumped their premine, given the unbelievably low Bytecoin exchange volume I simply think they haven't been able to. In order to dump a premine you have to have buyers, otherwise who are you selling it to? Leaving aside HitBTC, which is known to be untrustworthy and filled with fake trades (1 2 3), Bytecoin does about $2/day in volume. The most heavily traded day was June 21 when they did around 1.5 BTC in volume at a price of around 10 satoshi per Bytecoin. In the 245 days it has been listed on Poloniex, even if they were at peak every single day they would only have been able to dump 3 675 000 000 Bytecoins of their stash of 147 882 114 539 Bytecoins, which is 2.49%. Given that they're not at peak, the best they could have achieved over the past 245 days is a couple of hundred USD.

Strange to see that HitBTC has 99% of the volume while Poloniex has so little. Didn't realize their numbers were inaccurate.

I understand that the Bytecoin and CryptoNote teams had a very close relationship with the other until there was a split. Supposedly the BCN team wanted to focus on implementing the technology via Bytecoin while the CryptoNote team just wanted to focus on the core technology itself. The fact that the early adopters of BCN have profited so little suggests that this is something other than your typical scam. After all, who would go through all the trouble of helping to develop and implement an entirely new and truly innovative protocol just for a couple of hundred USD? Very odd.

Edit: forgot to add, the only coin "rankings" worth looking at are CoinGecko. If you're merely looking at market capitalisation then you also need to use CoinMarketCap's non-mineable/premine filter, but frankly there's not much value in market capitalisation metrics without taking other things into account (eg. market momentum, trade volume, etc.)

I remember BCN used to have double stars (and so did NXT) suggesting a premine but it was taken off after a couple of weeks. Thus BCN still shows up when you use the non-mineable/premine filter.

There's no propaganda in the facts above. They are not skewed nor twisted, and replicating my searches of the Silk Road 1 forum or of the various 4chan archive sites is a trivial exercise for the reader.

Most threads on 4chan don't make it to the archives. If the thread was posted on /g/ then it would stay up for a week or so and then disappear forever.

We absolutely do give kudos to the mathematician(s) behind the CryptoNote cryptography (and who we'd love to have on the Monero Research Lab panel), and credit does also have to go to the developer(s) who produces the CryptoNote reference code in the 7 months at the end of 2013 / beginning of 2014. If the original Bytecoin developers were involved in the creation of the reference code, then those kudos and credit extend to them up to that point, but we absolutely do not give credit for their attempt to fleece the cryptocurrency community.

I've read the CryptoNote whitepaper and it seems likely that the devs had some academic background. Or perhaps they were one of the cypherpunks that were involved in the early days of Bitcoin. If they were academics, then it's also possible that they weren't too concerned about profit and just kept their miners running while testing the code. Then perhaps word got out and a few people in the deep web found out but it failed to form a substantial community.

I'm not too familiar with Monero development these days. Is most of the development done by the CryptoNote/Bytecoin devs with the Monero team merging these changes into the code as required (such as in the case with Linux Mint being based on the latest Ubuntu release) or have the codebases completely diverged? And to what extent do the Monero devs understand the code behind CryptoNote? (I realize this is a tricky question to answer). Since the Monero devs didn't actually write the code behind their coin, I wonder if the task of maintaining it is beyond their technical capabilities. I know there is another CryptoNote coin called Dashcoin which tries to be a 1:1 mirror image of Bytecoin and thus circumvents the risk of inexperienced coders messing up while still avoiding that pesky 82 percent ninjamine.

[fluffypony]

I'm not too familiar with Monero development these days.

If you're not too familiar with it, then our year-end report is a good start.

Is most of the development done by the CryptoNote/Bytecoin devs with the Monero team merging these changes into the code as required (such as in the case with Linux Mint being based on the latest Ubuntu release) or have the codebases completely diverged?

An excellent question. Let's take a look at our respective github summaries:





Our first blockchainDB LMDB implementation is in testing, and that cements the picture:



I think it's safe to say that most of the development is being done by Monero, Bytecoin hasn't had a commit since September 15. If anything, Bytecoin would have to merge our work to their code, but practically speaking our codebases have diverged way too much.

And to what extent do the Monero devs understand the code behind CryptoNote? (I realize this is a tricky question to answer).

You've read our research bulletin, MRL-0003, "Monero is Not That Mysterious", right? Not only do we go into detail explaining the Monero cryptography in layman's terms, but we also released a reimplementation in Python: http://github.com/monero-project/mininero

Whilst you're at it, why don't you check out MyMonero, the Monero web wallet. It reimplements a lot of functionality in Javascript, which also points to our very deep understanding of the CryptoNote code.

Since the Monero devs didn't actually write the code behind their coin, I wonder if the task of maintaining it is beyond their technical capabilities.

This is an excellent question. So let me ask you this: since the Bitcoin core devs didn't actually write the original Bitcoin code, do you think the their task of maintaining Bitcoin is beyond their technical capabilities? Not only have they "maintained" it since Satoshi's departure, but they have improved on it.

The question remains: are the Monero devs similarly capable? Well, if you checkout git commit 1a8f5ce (the initial Monero fork) and you do a cloc (count lines of code) of the src folder (so excluding external libraries or copy-paste code), you get a total of 20 305 lines of code. Step up to the current commit, and that folder jumps to 32 322 lines of code written by the Monero core team and contributors. With our blockchainDB implementation that count jumps even further to 35 829. That means that the we've written 15 524 lines of code beyond the initial 20 305, and that completely ignores changes to existing lines of code (of which there have been many), as well as comments (of which there have been many), as well as external projects. We've done way, way more work than the initial project.

I know there is another CryptoNote coin called Dashcoin which tries to be a 1:1 mirror image of Bytecoin and thus circumvents the risk of inexperienced coders messing up while still avoiding that pesky 82 percent ninjamine.

It's a little insulting to call all 23 contributors to Monero (that's besides amjuarez, Bytecoin's sole developer) "inexperienced". Most notable among that esteemed group are Ben Boeckel, a Fedora and KDE contributor as well as a CMake core developer, and Dave Andersen, an associate professor at Carnegie Mellon University. Many of the other contributors, myself included, have many, many years of experience. You'd do well to choose your words more carefully next time.

[runpaint]

That was quite a post. 

Also, isn't it true that if Bytecoin was actually mined since 2012, that only about 10 computers were mining it?

[0nlyBTC]

I am really starting to like Monero. Monero seemly can walk the walk. I see nothing but hater posts from the Bytecoin camp.

Dare I say Monero has a future?

 

[Bizmark13]

Is most of the development done by the CryptoNote/Bytecoin devs with the Monero team merging these changes into the code as required (such as in the case with Linux Mint being based on the latest Ubuntu release) or have the codebases completely diverged?

An excellent question. Let's take a look at our respective github summaries:





Our first blockchainDB LMDB implementation is in testing, and that cements the picture:



I think it's safe to say that most of the development is being done by Monero, Bytecoin hasn't had a commit since September 15. If anything, Bytecoin would have to merge our work to their code, but practically speaking our codebases have diverged way too much.

I think this can be explained by the fact that Bytecoin is an older and more "established" coin similar to Litecoin so there isn't really a strong incentive for the devs to make drastic changes to it. Before the reference implementation was released, BCN functioned as the "vanilla" version and all the other CryptoNote coins were built on top of its design. Each coin has its own unique identity, feature set, and niche (here is a link to a list of them). For example, Fantomcoin supports merged mining, duckNote/DarkNote employs unique marketing, Dashcoin uses self-mutating code, Boolberry uses Wild Keccak for its hashing function, MonetaVerde is environmentally friendly, etc. Hence you would expect to see a lot more development happening with these newer coins compared to a three year old coin that has probably already accomplished most of its original design goals.

I'm guessing that the workload for Monero and most other CN coins is spread out over many individuals too so that updates will probably be more frequent and the development of the coin will happen at a faster pace.

That being said, I'm fairly certain that Bytecoin will be releasing a GUI wallet very soon. The devs alluded to it in a recent blog post. Monero seems to be working on one as well and Boolberry already has one.

And to what extent do the Monero devs understand the code behind CryptoNote? (I realize this is a tricky question to answer).

You've read our research bulletin, MRL-0003, "Monero is Not That Mysterious", right? Not only do we go into detail explaining the Monero cryptography in layman's terms, but we also released a reimplementation in Python: http://github.com/monero-project/mininero

Whilst you're at it, why don't you check out MyMonero, the Monero web wallet. It reimplements a lot of functionality in Javascript, which also points to our very deep understanding of the CryptoNote code.

I've skimmed through the PDF but haven't read it fully. As for the other links, well I'll check them out.

Since the Monero devs didn't actually write the code behind their coin, I wonder if the task of maintaining it is beyond their technical capabilities.

This is an excellent question. So let me ask you this: since the Bitcoin core devs didn't actually write the original Bitcoin code, do you think the their task of maintaining Bitcoin is beyond their technical capabilities? Not only have they "maintained" it since Satoshi's departure, but they have improved on it.

The question remains: are the Monero devs similarly capable? Well, if you checkout git commit 1a8f5ce (the initial Monero fork) and you do a cloc (count lines of code) of the src folder (so excluding external libraries or copy-paste code), you get a total of 20 305 lines of code. Step up to the current commit, and that folder jumps to 32 322 lines of code written by the Monero core team and contributors. With our blockchainDB implementation that count jumps even further to 35 829. That means that the we've written 15 524 lines of code beyond the initial 20 305, and that completely ignores changes to existing lines of code (of which there have been many), as well as comments (of which there have been many), as well as external projects.

Is this including the list of mnemonic phrases and their translations? The main additions on top of BCN seems to be the addition of Electrum-style passphrases, aliases, and the new per-kb fee structure.

We've done way, way more work than the initial project.

Agreed, as per reasons above.

I know there is another CryptoNote coin called Dashcoin which tries to be a 1:1 mirror image of Bytecoin and thus circumvents the risk of inexperienced coders messing up while still avoiding that pesky 82 percent ninjamine.

It's a little insulting to call all 23 contributors to Monero (that's besides amjuarez, Bytecoin's sole developer) "inexperienced". Most notable among that esteemed group are Ben Boeckel, a Fedora and KDE contributor as well as a CMake core developer, and Dave Andersen, an associate professor at Carnegie Mellon University. Many of the other contributors, myself included, have many, many years of experience. You'd do well to choose your words more carefully next time.

OK, I see. Point taken. I didn't realize you were a XMR contributor so perhaps I should have chosen my words more carefully. After Bytecoin was discovered and announced on these forums, it seemed as though there were tons of forks appearing all at once and BitMonero happened to be the biggest one of these. However, kicking the original dev out of the project and changing the coin's name mid-development didn't inspire too much confidence personally IMHO. Usually the quality of altcoin devs around here isn't very high but after seeing those links that you posted, it looks like Monero has some bright people working on it now who seem to know what they're doing. That's definitely good to see.

My main concern was that there's a big difference between being a good programmer and being a good computer scientist. Suffice to say, most altcoin devs are neither. And it's usually the case that good programmers don't make good computer scientists and vice versa. Oh, and computer scientists are much harder to find too. Most hold post-graduate degrees and many work in research/academia. After reading the CryptoNote whitepaper, it's obvious to me that a.) Nicolas van Saberhagen is a bloody genius, and b.) a proper in-depth understanding of the protocol requires a rigorous knowledge of mathematics and cryptography. My first impression with Monero was that it was just a community fork of Bytecoin designed solely to avoid the poor distribution that plagued BCN while leaving the original coders to take care of the core protocol. Perhaps I was wrong.

[sorryforthat]

We absolutely do give kudos to the mathematician(s) behind the CryptoNote cryptography (and who we'd love to have on the Monero Research Lab panel), and credit does also have to go to the developer(s) who produces the CryptoNote reference code in the 7 months at the end of 2013 / beginning of 2014. If the original Bytecoin developers were involved in the creation of the reference code, then those kudos and credit extend to them up to that point, but we absolutely do not give credit for their attempt to fleece the cryptocurrency community.

But Monero is a fork of Bytecoin built on the Cryptonote technology? Kudos is definatly due. Would Monero be anywhere without it? Or would Bitmonero be anywhere without it?

[runpaint]

Hence you would expect to see a lot more development happening with these newer coins compared to a three year old coin that has probably already accomplished most of its original design goals.

But Monero is almost 3 years old itself.  I personally mined Monero in 2012. 

People have called me a liar for saying that, but they couldn't come up with any objections that don't apply equally to Bytecoin. 

[fluffypony]

But Monero is a fork of Bytecoin built on the Cryptonote technology? Kudos is definatly due. Would Monero be anywhere without it? Or would Bitmonero be anywhere without it?

Nope, Monero is a fork of the CryptoNote reference code. Yes, this was originally done under the "Bytecoin" name, but if you take a look at the files in the very earliest Monero commit by thankful_for_today (eg. https://github.com/monero-project/bitmonero/blob/1a8f5ce89a990e54ec757affff01f27d449640bc/src/cryptonote_config.h) you will see that it says "Copyright (c) 2012-2013 The Cryptonote developers" and not "Copyright the Bytecoin developers". Unsurprisingly, the official repo of the CryptoNote reference code isn't particularly diverged from that first commit.

[Bizmark13]

But Monero is a fork of Bytecoin built on the Cryptonote technology? Kudos is definatly due. Would Monero be anywhere without it? Or would Bitmonero be anywhere without it?

Nope, Monero is a fork of the CryptoNote reference code. Yes, this was originally done under the "Bytecoin" name, but if you take a look at the files in the very earliest Monero commit by thankful_for_today (eg. https://github.com/monero-project/bitmonero/blob/1a8f5ce89a990e54ec757affff01f27d449640bc/src/cryptonote_config.h) you will see that it says "Copyright (c) 2012-2013 The Cryptonote developers" and not "Copyright the Bytecoin developers". Unsurprisingly, the official repo of the CryptoNote reference code isn't particularly diverged from that first commit.

Umm... I always thought XMR was forked off BCN? Here is the link to the original BitMonero [ANN] thread. It says:

Important: this is not a Bytecoin relaunch or not a Bytecoin replacement but a Bytecoin fork. Bytecoin has its own long history, community and stakeholders we don't know much about. I respect them and their decisions even if I don't understand them now. An intention to relaunch coin is always harmfull for everybody involved. Fork is a right way to contribute to community in case you don't agree with decisions already made.

[sorryforthat]

But Monero is a fork of Bytecoin built on the Cryptonote technology? Kudos is definatly due. Would Monero be anywhere without it? Or would Bitmonero be anywhere without it?

Nope, Monero is a fork of the CryptoNote reference code. Yes, this was originally done under the "Bytecoin" name, but if you take a look at the files in the very earliest Monero commit by thankful_for_today (eg. https://github.com/monero-project/bitmonero/blob/1a8f5ce89a990e54ec757affff01f27d449640bc/src/cryptonote_config.h) you will see that it says "Copyright (c) 2012-2013 The Cryptonote developers" and not "Copyright the Bytecoin developers". Unsurprisingly, the official repo of the CryptoNote reference code isn't particularly diverged from that first commit.

Umm... I always thought XMR was forked off BCN? Here is the link to the original BitMonero [ANN] thread. It says:

Important: this is not a Bytecoin relaunch or not a Bytecoin replacement but a Bytecoin fork. Bytecoin has its own long history, community and stakeholders we don't know much about. I respect them and their decisions even if I don't understand them now. An intention to relaunch coin is always harmfull for everybody involved. Fork is a right way to contribute to community in case you don't agree with decisions already made.

The link he posted to the commit is no different than any other altcoin that is copyrighted under Bitcoin and Bitcoin developers. Its just information for those who may not know any better.

[Bizmark13]

Also, isn't it true that if Bytecoin was actually mined since 2012, that only about 10 computers were mining it?

I think someone did analysis of the hash rate a while back and came to the conclusion that the number of people mining it was very small for quite a while. Perhaps it was mined by universities during its first few months or something. The whole thing is extremely mysterious.

(Then again, a lot of things in the crypto world are shrouded in mystery. Nobody knows the identities of Satoshi or BCNext. Or the Truecrypt developers. Bytecoin seems to fit the trend.)

Hence you would expect to see a lot more development happening with these newer coins compared to a three year old coin that has probably already accomplished most of its original design goals.

But Monero is almost 3 years old itself.  I personally mined Monero in 2012. 

People have called me a liar for saying that, but they couldn't come up with any objections that don't apply equally to Bytecoin. 

Umm... The evidence would be in the code and the blockchain, no?

[sorryforthat]

Hence you would expect to see a lot more development happening with these newer coins compared to a three year old coin that has probably already accomplished most of its original design goals.

But Monero is almost 3 years old itself.  I personally mined Monero in 2012.  

People have called me a liar for saying that, but they couldn't come up with any objections that don't apply equally to Bytecoin.  

Umm... The evidence would be in the code and the blockchain, no?

I think he was being facetious

[runpaint]

Like I said, doesn't the evidence in the code and in the blockchain show that Bytecoin didn't exist until 2014?

[sorryforthat]

People can now choose between the original first implementation Bytecoin or the only large competent community fork so far, Monero.

Not sure why thats how you present your comment, and its typical when it comes to Monero fan boys. I hold more monero than I do Bytecoin, which tells you something, so economically I am for the rise of Monero. But I dont understand how the devs and the so called "community" such as your self post in such a negative manner and offer nothing substantial but a quick snide comment and on about your day.

P.S - I wish I would of sold when Monero was at 0.009