[FOR ADMINS] An Open Letter to Bitcointalk.org Admins Regarding Ponzi Schemes

[Stratobitz]

An Open Letter to the Administrators of Bitcointalk.org,

As everyone is well aware - this particular board has recently become littered with advertisements for 'Ponzi Schemes', which I can't but think is not a positive thing for this forum, the bitcointalk community, or the digital currency industry as a whole.

Bitcointalk.org has certainly established itself as a leading source for the discussion, collaboration, and innovation within the digital currency arena. I have learned a great deal here, and I applaud theymos, ckolivas, malevolent, and the other admins of this site for creating this community and working so hard to keep it running and growing.

With that said; I find it disheartening, yet not surprising, that these posts have begun to spark up like wildfire, very similar to the Alt-coin Rush of 2014. Let's not forget how many of those very Alt-coins which were promoted here turned out to be scams in and of themselves.

While I am all for freedom of speech and expression, and I certainly am not a fan of censorship, I feel that clearly advertising 'Ponzis' on this forum, and this being tolerated, cannot be good for the Bitcointalk community in the long run.

We can all agree - Bitcoin and crytpo-currencies have had enough of bad press, and it is only a matter of time before a spotlight get's thrown on this particular aspect of how bitcoins can be used for nefarious purposes, or at the very least these posts will be used as additional ammunition by the anti-bitcoin groups to further push Bitcoin down.

A Ponzi scheme by definition, is a fraudulent investment operation where the operator, an individual or organization, pays returns to its investors from new capital paid to the operators by new investors, rather than from profit earned by the operator. Operators of Ponzi schemes usually entice new investors by offering higher returns than other investments, in the form of short-term returns that are either abnormally high or unusually consistent. Taken from Wikipedia.org

So the question I ask is do these advertisements, clearly and openly advertising ponzi schemes, have a place here? If so, where will the line be drawn? Will users openly be able to post ads for narcotics, or other illegal items such as weapons for sale in the Marketplace?

Again, I don't think this comes down to censorship. Users of Bitcoin can use their bitcoins to buy whatever they please as long as it doesn't harm other people. But Ponzi's are designed in nature to harm other people. To steal their money. To defraud investors.

With that said, I am respectfully asking that this issue be considered by the Bitcointalk staff and owners; and for thought to be given as to whether these types of services and programs should really have a home here in the Gambling section of Bitcointalk.org.

I certainly welcome comments and thoughts on this issue.

Strato

[finlon]

A lot of people have raised this issue on bitcointalk. At the end, I think it all comes down to a point when people stop investing in these ponzis and they stop happening because owners get bored now. 

[adaseb]

I understand your situation however it they make Ponzi schemes illegal then won't that make gambling illegall all together?

Both situations the person is gambling and might lose money.

[lolled]

I understand your situation however it they make Ponzi schemes illegal then won't that make gambling illegall all together?

Both situations the person is gambling and might lose money.

You didn't seem to understand his point.
If you look at the altcoins trend, a lot of them were created just as a scam. Thats somewhat the same case with ponzis. When they don't profit enough from the 5%, they resort to just keeping or stealing the biggest deposit that is made, and start over.

[baristor]

The admins suspect people have brain and notibly made gambling section for them ponzis dont know what more u want them to sit and ban each one ? Its a game, sometimes u win sometimes u loose. ! enjoi

[dicefun]

you are right
in gambling section now there are more ponzi sites than dice sites
I don't like it

[Snail2]

The admins not going to do anything. They used to think ppl here have brains. If they really have then they shoult use it.

[galbros]

I agree ponzi's are a bad investment and people should not send their coins to them.  

But that is true for all gambling situations where the fun should offset the house edge.  The header for this section points out: Gambling and all "investments" that are so risky they might as well be gambling (HYIPs, pyramid schemes, etc.)  Which suggests the ponzi threads are in the right place.

If people would rather have fun risking their coins in a ponzi rather than in a dice site why shouldn't they?  The forum is dedicated to free expression and is not going to try and protect people from their own stupidity.  I don't think anyone can spend any time on here and not know that ponzi's are risky, heck people assert that all of bitcoin is a ponzi!

If you have not already, you may want to check the meta thread where a lot of comments like yours have been posted often drawing admin responses.

Good luck.

[Stratobitz]

Well to address a few points:

1.) Ponzi Schemes are in fact illegal. Typically a business or site however would not advertise however the fact that it is in fact a Ponzi. I don't think however, from a legal standpoint, that calling it a ponzi up front eliminates the crime (which again just going by definition is the "intent" to commit fraud). Fraud is both a criminal offense as well as a civil crime in most if not all countries.

2.) The Alt-coin scam of 2014; which saw it's heyday during the spring and summer months did not openly admit to being just that; a long series of highly orchestrated scams which raked in uncountable amounts of money from unknowing and/or naive investors. Many of the coins advertised themselves as legitimate projects with "road-maps"; "development plans"; and "innovative features". In time what the outsiders learned was that these coins had no plan at all. Many were outright and deliberate fraud, with hidden pre-mines, ninja-code; and or viruses packaged neatly into the provided wallet or mining software.

These coins used this very forum, along with Twitter, Reddit, and Chatrooms as their launch vehicle. At the height of the scam era a new altcoin was appearing on major exchanges nearly every single day. While no direct proof exists- at least not publicly; there is no doubt in many peoples minds that this was not individual scam artists creating coins for a quick buck, but rather a highly planned scam orchestrated between the developers of these coins, a number of exchanges, and certain pool operators.

3.) As far as the admins not taking any sort of action or at the least giving their position on this issue; justifying these posts based on the statement: "people have brains" is simply not the point. The admins have a responsibility to at least state their policy regarding these posts. Ponzi's are-- Acts of Fraud. The admins have created a number of policies in the past; the most recent to come to mind is banning pool advertisements within ANN threads.

I am quite certain that if users began advertising drugs, weapons, or worse in the marketplace - the admins would stamp that out quickly by banning accounts.

In closing; my post was not meant to question whether or not people are intelligent or savvy enough to differentiate a good investment from a bad investment. It was simply to ask the question do Ponzi Schemes; and the advertising of such; have a place here on the Bitcointalk forum.

Strato

[JimClone]

I also hate ponzis but it is truly up to the individual if they want to play or not. If there wasn't any money going into the ponzis then they would close.

[Stratobitz]

I agree ponzi's are a bad investment and people should not send their coins to them.  

But that is true for all gambling situations where the fun should offset the house edge.  The header for this section points out: Gambling and all "investments" that are so risky they might as well be gambling (HYIPs, pyramid schemes, etc.)  Which suggests the ponzi threads are in the right place.

If people would rather have fun risking their coins in a ponzi rather than in a dice site why shouldn't they?  The forum is dedicated to free expression and is not going to try and protect people from their own stupidity.  I don't think anyone can spend any time on here and not know that ponzi's are risky, heck people assert that all of bitcoin is a ponzi!

If you have not already, you may want to check the meta thread where a lot of comments like yours have been posted often drawing admin responses.

Good luck.

Ponzi's are not gambling. These programs that are being advertised are as simple as this:

Send your coins here. You will get paid when the next person pays in.

Gaming sites, at least the legitimate and well known ones; use provably fair systems and other measures of control to create at least an umbrella of protection in terms of fairness to the player.

These sites are advertising "130% Returns Fast" Send Money Now! - I am sorry, but people ARE in fact going to fall for this.

There are already more Ponzi posts than traditional gaming posts (at least new posts).  With that said - are we to assume it's time to create a sub board under Marketplace called "Ponzi Schemes".  

Strato

[Blazr]

Argument #1: Ponzi sites are illegal
So are gambling websites that don't have the proper gambling licenses.
So are Bitcoin exchanges that do not have the proper money transmitter licenses or AML procedures.
So are lenders that don't abide by payday loan laws.
So are public performances of the song "Happy birthday to you" which is copyrighted by Warner/Chappell Music.

Argument #2: All ponzi sites are a scam

If the ponzi site fulfills their side of the deal and does exactly what they promise and both parties are willingly trading, where did the scam occur?

Argument #3: Ponzi's should be banned because they make Bitcoin look "bad"
Instead of banning ponzi's, why don't we make things a bit better and form a mining cartel, make a blacklist of bitcoin addresses known to be used by ponzi sites and never confirm any ponzi site payments?

 

The general ethos of Bitcoin is for free market trade and against regulation. How can you actually believe that and at the same time be trying to ban people from using Bitcoin because it makes Bitcoin look bad?

Argument #4: Most ponzi sites aren't provably fair so they are scams
There is probably a way to make ponzi sites provably fair using tx scripts. But if ponzi sites are a scam due to the lack of provably fair, then so are all gambling sites that don't have provably fair, such as poker sites and sportsbook websites.

Argument #5: Ponzi's arent entertainment
People have different opinions on what entertainment is. It may not be entertaining for you, but I'm sure its entertaining for others.

Argument #6: Ponzi's are scams because people will lose money
There will always be people who lose money on any gambling website. Otherwise the website would be losing money.

Thats all the arguments I can think of right now.

[Superhitech]

A lot of people have raised this issue on bitcointalk. At the end, I think it all comes down to a point when people stop investing in these ponzis and they stop happening because owners get bored now. 

I agree. I personally think that this is just a ponzi hype, and it will die down soon. (Hopefully)

It's up to people if they want to invest, they have brains, they know they are going to lose money. Just don't invest!

[Mitchell]

As explained in the "Unofficial list of (official) Bitcointalk.org rules, guidelines, FAQ"-thread, the staff doesn't moderate that section.

19. Possible (or real) scams and Trust ratings are not moderated (to prevent moderation abuse).

Q: Why haven't you banned <insert scammer username here> who is an obvious scammer?
A: Possible (or real, not for me to decide) scams are not moderated to prevent moderator abuse. If we start picking out which ones we call "scammers" and ban, we would make a lot of decisions based on biased opinions.

Even though Ponzi's are illegal in most parts of the world, we won't touch them because of this.

[Lethn]

This is what I say to anyone who keeps trying to advocate regulation and censorship on anything that happens by accident or happens because other people are stupid: You can't regulate stupidity and incompetence

[ScryptAsic]

Argument #1: Ponzi sites are illegal
So are gambling websites that don't have the proper gambling licenses.
So are Bitcoin exchanges that do not have the proper money transmitter licenses or AML procedures.
So are lenders that don't abide by payday loan laws.
So are public performances of the song "Happy birthday to you" which is copyrighted by Warner/Chappell Music.

Some of the gambling sites at least try to follow the law. For example Satoshi Dice does not allow people with a US IP address to get their gambling addresses from their website and Prime Dice does not allow people with Australian IP addresses to gamble there. There are obviously very easy ways to get around these very loose restrictions, however they at least make an attempt.

Argument #2: All ponzi sites are a scam
If the ponzi site fulfills their side of the deal and does exactly what they promise and both parties are willingly trading, where did the scam occur?

I do not think any of the recent ponzi's have actually turned out to operate legitimately. AFAIK they all have ended up running away with their "players'" money

Argument #3: Ponzi's should be banned because they make Bitcoin look "bad"
Instead of banning ponzi's, why don't we make things a bit better and form a mining cartel, make a blacklist of bitcoin addresses known to be used by ponzi sites and never confirm any ponzi site payments?

 

This is obviously a bad idea. The forum is very different from the miners as a whole. The forum is privately owned while the network represents bitcoin. If you owned a large mining farm then you could do this if you wanted to however it would not make any sense to do so because chances are, the miner that finds the next block will just confirm the transaction anyway.

The general ethos of Bitcoin is for free market trade and against regulation. How can you actually believe that and at the same time be trying to ban people from using Bitcoin because it makes Bitcoin look bad?

IMO this is a different argument then simply free trade/market. This is the fact that we are seeing a rise in entities that, in the past have all ended up scamming.

Argument #4: Most ponzi sites aren't provably fair so they are scams
There is probably a way to make ponzi sites provably fair using tx scripts. But if ponzi sites are a scam due to the lack of provably fair, then so are all gambling sites that don't have provably fair, such as poker sites and sportsbook websites.

AFAIK none of the ponzi games are employing instant TX scripts. Additionally the casino does not control the outcome of a poker game or a sporting event. A ponzi game can potentially manipulate the outcome. 
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=750507.msg10250009#msg10250009
Argument #5: Ponzi's arent entertainment
People have different opinions on what entertainment is. It may not be entertaining for you, but I'm sure its entertaining for others.[/quote]Agreed
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=750507.msg10250009#msg10250009
Argument #6: Ponzi's are scams because people will lose money
There will always be people who lose money on any gambling website. Otherwise the website would be losing money.
[/quote]It is not that people lose money in ponzis it is that people get scammed in ponzis. There is a big difference

[onewiseguy]

An Open Letter to the Administrators of Bitcointalk.org,

As everyone is well aware - this particular board has recently become littered with advertisements for 'Ponzi Schemes', which I can't but think is not a positive thing for this forum, the bitcointalk community, or the digital currency industry as a whole.

Bitcointalk.org has certainly established itself as a leading source for the discussion, collaboration, and innovation within the digital currency arena. I have learned a great deal here, and I applaud theymos, ckolivas, malevolent, and the other admins of this site for creating this community and working so hard to keep it running and growing.

With that said; I find it disheartening, yet not surprising, that these posts have begun to spark up like wildfire, very similar to the Alt-coin Rush of 2014. Let's not forget how many of those very Alt-coins which were promoted here turned out to be scams in and of themselves.

While I am all for freedom of speech and expression, and I certainly am not a fan of censorship, I feel that clearly advertising 'Ponzis' on this forum, and this being tolerated, cannot be good for the Bitcointalk community in the long run.

We can all agree - Bitcoin and crytpo-currencies have had enough of bad press, and it is only a matter of time before a spotlight get's thrown on this particular aspect of how bitcoins can be used for nefarious purposes, or at the very least these posts will be used as additional ammunition by the anti-bitcoin groups to further push Bitcoin down.

A Ponzi scheme by definition, is a fraudulent investment operation where the operator, an individual or organization, pays returns to its investors from new capital paid to the operators by new investors, rather than from profit earned by the operator. Operators of Ponzi schemes usually entice new investors by offering higher returns than other investments, in the form of short-term returns that are either abnormally high or unusually consistent. Taken from Wikipedia.org

So the question I ask is do these advertisements, clearly and openly advertising ponzi schemes, have a place here? If so, where will the line be drawn? Will users openly be able to post ads for narcotics, or other illegal items such as weapons for sale in the Marketplace?

Again, I don't think this comes down to censorship. Users of Bitcoin can use their bitcoins to buy whatever they please as long as it doesn't harm other people. But Ponzi's are designed in nature to harm other people. To steal their money. To defraud investors.

With that said, I am respectfully asking that this issue be considered by the Bitcointalk staff and owners; and for thought to be given as to whether these types of services and programs should really have a home here in the Gambling section of Bitcointalk.org.

I certainly welcome comments and thoughts on this issue.

Strato

Follow me @Stratobitz on Twitter

Its the end users, issue not the forums. its gambling and people know it, it is not fraud because every single person that uses them knows whats going on. if people stop suing them then they will all die.  Again you cant babysit every one that ends up being scammed or complains later.

[Gyfts]

While your point is valid, you need to see the opposing side. Ponzi's are in a way gambling. Can they be profitable? Yes, ran by moral people, which is the only reason they are allowed. However, most all ponzi operators now a days scamming any investors which is a problem. So in my opinion, they need to be banned and disallowed.

[Muhammed Zakir]

I think all ponzis should be banned. The 'Games and rounds' board is messed up with ponzis.

@OP : Are you trying to advertise your Twitter account? Isn't advertising in posts agains forum rule unless approved?

   ~~MZ~~

[rammy2k2]

While your point is valid, you need to see the opposing side. Ponzi's are in a way gambling. Can they be profitable? Yes, ran by moral people, which is the only reason they are allowed. However, most all ponzi operators now a days scamming any investors which is a problem. So in my opinion, they need to be banned and disallowed.

A ponzi cant be run by moral people u little kid .... do you tie your shoes alone ?