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Author Topic: Pledging coins for ultimate blockchain compression  (Read 5780 times)
BrightAnarchist
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July 16, 2012, 03:38:37 PM
 #1

I really like the concept of ultimate blockchain compression.

I don't have the time nor the expertise to contribute code to implement etotheipi's idea, but I do have the coin. I hereby pledge 10 BTC to the person or persons that implement ultimate blockchain compression. With such a scheme in place, I would feel much more secure about Bitcoin's future.

If you feel the same way, then lets make this a pledge thread.

Addendum 8/21/2012: Ripper has been entrusted to manage a bounty wallet, so send coins here:

Great news!

1. Your donation was rescued from Booster.io, and now sits safely at this new bounty wallet I created: https://blockchain.info/address/16ofWVGwqDVjwhV95fDUrkyqT4Bcy1Nc6G

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unclescrooge
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July 16, 2012, 03:54:11 PM
 #2

I feel the same way too. So I pledge 10 btc also. Pruning blockchain is, i feel, essential.

Do we set up an btc address or something? How do we organize?

BrightAnarchist
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July 16, 2012, 04:11:03 PM
 #3

I feel the same way too. So I pledge 10 btc also. Pruning blockchain is, i feel, essential.

Do we set up an btc address or something? How do we organize?

I don't think we need to organize. It's probably best that each person do the donation themselves directly to those that implement the necessary compression features. Otherwise there could be disagreement on how to distribute the pledges, for many reasons...

This thread is just to give incentive to solve the blockchain bloat problem. It's up to each individual to follow through on their personal pledges.
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July 16, 2012, 04:18:48 PM
 #4

I have been thinking about an idea that is similar to this.

The concept is to have a max chain size that grows according to Moores Law, so that over time the max chain size gets larger.

When a chain reaches the max chain size a chain split occurs, the user is prompted if they wish to maintain both chains or just one of the the sub chains.

The chains exist at the leafs of the tree much in the same way as the proposal you mention.

Transactions occur in two steps, the output phase of the transaction and the input phase. This will facilitate inter-chain transaction.

Each client only receives input out output transaction for the chains they are maintaining.

Mining occurs at the the node junctions and all hashes must be mined to the root node to become a valid part of the tree.

unclescrooge
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July 17, 2012, 07:32:36 AM
 #5

I feel the same way too. So I pledge 10 btc also. Pruning blockchain is, i feel, essential.

Do we set up an btc address or something? How do we organize?

I don't think we need to organize. It's probably best that each person do the donation themselves directly to those that implement the necessary compression features. Otherwise there could be disagreement on how to distribute the pledges, for many reasons...

This thread is just to give incentive to solve the blockchain bloat problem. It's up to each individual to follow through on their personal pledges.

Yes, I agree.

Come on people, your bitcoins are worth nothing if we can't prune the blockchain!

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July 18, 2012, 06:19:09 AM
 #6

I'll pledge some coins.  Not sure how much.
ripper234
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Ron Gross


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July 19, 2012, 03:33:53 PM
 #7

I feel the same way too. So I pledge 10 btc also. Pruning blockchain is, i feel, essential.

Do we set up an btc address or something? How do we organize?

Open a bounty on Booster.io

Please do not pm me, use ron@bitcoin.org.il instead
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July 21, 2012, 12:55:40 AM
 #8

I wonder if we could have a "superblock" every so often that is simply a hash of all the previous blocks. In essence you start out with a new genesis block and chain each time but old coins are still valid because they are in this "superblock".

I dont know if that makes sense...

maaku
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July 27, 2012, 04:38:27 PM
 #9

Do we set up an btc address or something? How do we organize?

I don't think we need to organize. It's probably best that each person do the donation themselves directly to those that implement the necessary compression features. Otherwise there could be disagreement on how to distribute the pledges, for many reasons...

This thread is just to give incentive to solve the blockchain bloat problem. It's up to each individual to follow through on their personal pledges.
As a developer seriously considering implementing this, I would prefer someone unbiased (so not me, obviously) organize a blockchain.info donation wallet, or maybe booster.io (first I heard of it). That way I'd only have to collect from one person, and that person risks the ire of everyone who donated if he runs off with the money.

I haven't yet thought about what the tipping point will be, but if the total gets high enough I will do this.

I'm an independent developer working on bitcoin-core, making my living off community donations.
If you like my work, please consider donating yourself: 13snZ4ZyCzaL7358SmgvHGC9AxskqumNxP
wabber
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July 27, 2012, 05:17:38 PM
 #10

I wonder if we could have a "superblock" every so often that is simply a hash of all the previous blocks. In essence you start out with a new genesis block and chain each time but old coins are still valid because they are in this "superblock".

I dont know if that makes sense...

You can't simply hash all the blocks and forget about everything else because you need the unspend transactions. If you hash all the blocks you will get something like this:
aab4bab5af2a3deb2706954cffc89ad5cbed6dcc328d9e9daef3483cadbfa053
a simple plain hash. Now how do you know if Bob has bitcoins? And how do you know how much bitcoins Bob has? That's impossible to know if you only have that hash.

Pruning works more like that:
Let's say we have 3 people A, B and C

A sends 1 BTC to B and B sends that bitcoin to C. That means we have 2 transactions. But we can forget about the first one if we are pretty sure that there wont be a chain reorg because your client doesn't have to know if A sent 1BTC to B it only needs to know that C has 1BTC.
unclemantis
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July 29, 2012, 01:15:30 AM
 #11









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ripper234
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Ron Gross


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July 29, 2012, 05:21:06 AM
 #12

I opened a booster.io bounty jar. Please add a link to the OP.

For the uber lazy, this is the condition to claim:

Quote
Ultimate Blockchain Pruning is a proposed alt-chain data structure that will enhance core Bitcoin scalability and allow for trust-free light clients. It does not compete with Bitcoin, but rather complements and strengthens it.

This bounty will be awarded to the first person or group who completes all these tasks:
1. Implement UBP
2. Get at least 15% of the hash power to merge-mine it
3. Patch at least one major Bitcoin client to support UBP mode
4. Benchmark the result and show an improvement of at least 10% in downloading the blockchain from scratch

This is quite an undertaking ... so you better donate if you want to encourage this idea.

Please do not pm me, use ron@bitcoin.org.il instead
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BrightAnarchist
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July 29, 2012, 04:02:45 PM
 #13

I opened a booster.io bounty jar. Please add a link to the OP.

For the uber lazy, this is the condition to claim:

Quote
Ultimate Blockchain Pruning is a proposed alt-chain data structure that will enhance core Bitcoin scalability and allow for trust-free light clients. It does not compete with Bitcoin, but rather complements and strengthens it.

This bounty will be awarded to the first person or group who completes all these tasks:
1. Implement UBP
2. Get at least 15% of the hash power to merge-mine it
3. Patch at least one major Bitcoin client to support UBP mode
4. Benchmark the result and show an improvement of at least 10% in downloading the blockchain from scratch

This is quite an undertaking ... so you better donate if you want to encourage this idea.


Thanks, but if we go this route, who owns the bounty and who decides if the feature is implemented to each of our likings?

Aso, looks like they take a 5% cut of the bounty.
ripper234
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Ron Gross


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July 29, 2012, 04:36:46 PM
 #14

I opened a booster.io bounty jar. Please add a link to the OP.

For the uber lazy, this is the condition to claim:

Quote
Ultimate Blockchain Pruning is a proposed alt-chain data structure that will enhance core Bitcoin scalability and allow for trust-free light clients. It does not compete with Bitcoin, but rather complements and strengthens it.

This bounty will be awarded to the first person or group who completes all these tasks:
1. Implement UBP
2. Get at least 15% of the hash power to merge-mine it
3. Patch at least one major Bitcoin client to support UBP mode
4. Benchmark the result and show an improvement of at least 10% in downloading the blockchain from scratch

This is quite an undertaking ... so you better donate if you want to encourage this idea.


Thanks, but if we go this route, who owns the bounty and who decides if the feature is implemented to each of our likings?

Aso, looks like they take a 5% cut of the bounty.

WTF???

This caught me completely by surprise.
Here is the complaint I just submitted on the Propster.me thread.

Except the 5% fee, I think the terms are rather clear - I submitted exact conditions for the bounty.
You may argue that some of the figures there are a arbitrary (15% merge mined). If anyone suggests better numbers perhaps we can revise. However, besides this point, I don't think there is an ambiguity in the bounty.

Still, due to the 5% fee, the above point is irrelevant. I won't be using Booster.io as long as this fee remains.

Please do not pm me, use ron@bitcoin.org.il instead
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maaku
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July 29, 2012, 06:04:58 PM
 #15

The fee is not a huge issue--they do provide a service that costs money to maintain. Although 5% is a little excessive.

Still, a blockchain.info wallet managed by someone with good reputation accomplishes the same feat with similar risk.

I'm an independent developer working on bitcoin-core, making my living off community donations.
If you like my work, please consider donating yourself: 13snZ4ZyCzaL7358SmgvHGC9AxskqumNxP
ripper234
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Ron Gross


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July 29, 2012, 06:27:46 PM
 #16

The fee is not a huge issue--they do provide a service that costs money to maintain. Although 5% is a little excessive.

Still, a blockchain.info wallet managed by someone with good reputation accomplishes the same feat with similar risk.

If they become hugely successful, they will make a decent live just from the interest alone.
(Booster.io and its twin site Propster.io).

5% is huge. Who do we nominate as the keeper of the bounty?

Please do not pm me, use ron@bitcoin.org.il instead
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maaku
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July 29, 2012, 07:51:54 PM
 #17

Do you really want an organization that is supposed to be safeguarding your bounty loaning out the coins for interest? What if a deal they make goes bad?

Anyway, I have no problem with you managing it, ripper234, if you can get my 2.5BTC back. I'd do it myself, but I have a horse in this match Wink

I'm an independent developer working on bitcoin-core, making my living off community donations.
If you like my work, please consider donating yourself: 13snZ4ZyCzaL7358SmgvHGC9AxskqumNxP
ripper234
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Ron Gross


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July 29, 2012, 08:15:11 PM
 #18

Do you really want an organization that is supposed to be safeguarding your bounty loaning out the coins for interest? What if a deal they make goes bad?

Anyway, I have no problem with you managing it, ripper234, if you can get my 2.5BTC back. I'd do it myself, but I have a horse in this match Wink

It's not a question of wanting it or not ... I think that most businesses that hold lots of BTC today are doing it, whether they're telling their customers or not.

If you want, I can manage the fund (assuming I manage to get the 2.5 BTC back).
These conditions apply:

1. I will open a new blockchain.info account dedicated to this purpose.
2. I will use a fresh strong password that will be kept in my usual keepass keyfile and nowhere else (backed-up to dropbox).
3. I will not invest the funds in any interest-bearing vehicles, but simply store the keys to the blockchain.info wallet.
4. I will not be liable in any way if the wallet are hacked. A non-trivial amount of my own funds are sitting on blockchain.info, so I will lose a lot if my keepass file is hacked as well.
5. I might transfer the stewardship of the funds to another trusted forum member, given sufficient consensus is formed.
6. Refunds to incoming donations will only be made within 48 hours of depositing, and with hard proof of ownership of funds.
7. These are the conditions required to unlock the funds:

Quote
Ultimate Blockchain Pruning is a proposed alt-chain data structure that will enhance core Bitcoin scalability and allow for trust-free light clients. It does not compete with Bitcoin, but rather complements and strengthens it.

This bounty will be awarded to the first person or group who completes all these tasks:
1. Implement UBP
2. Get at least 15% of the hash power to merge-mine it
3. Patch at least one major Bitcoin client to support UBP mode
4. Benchmark the result and show an improvement of at least 10% in downloading the blockchain from scratch

This is quite an undertaking ... so you better donate if you want to encourage this idea.

These conditions might be slightly refined in the future, if ample consensus exists (my discretion). The spirit of these conditions will not be changed - the bounty will only be given to someone who makes a solid proof of concept, and get significant miner support.

8. Project abandonment - if sufficient time has passed (> 1 year), and I deem the project is abandoned by its originators and there is no interest to develop it in the community, then funds will be donated to a Bitcoin related organization (e.g. developers of Bitcoin-qt, managers of bitcointalk.org, etc...). I will choose the organization/s, and will consult on this thread before doing so (but the final call will be mine).

Please do not pm me, use ron@bitcoin.org.il instead
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maaku
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July 30, 2012, 04:56:13 AM
 #19

Fair enough. I hope it won't take 1 year to do this Wink

It's not a question of wanting it or not ... I think that most businesses that hold lots of BTC today are doing it, whether they're telling their customers or not.
The blockchain data is public, however, so if they touched the donations we'd notice. But we both digress...

I'm an independent developer working on bitcoin-core, making my living off community donations.
If you like my work, please consider donating yourself: 13snZ4ZyCzaL7358SmgvHGC9AxskqumNxP
ripper234
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Ron Gross


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July 30, 2012, 05:51:34 AM
 #20

Fair enough. I hope it won't take 1 year to do this Wink

It's not a question of wanting it or not ... I think that most businesses that hold lots of BTC today are doing it, whether they're telling their customers or not.
The blockchain data is public, however, so if they touched the donations we'd notice. But we both digress...

+1

Please do not pm me, use ron@bitcoin.org.il instead
Mastercoin Executive Director
Co-founder of the Israeli Bitcoin Association
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