No worries.. US debt per person only trippled from 2004-2015

[etoque]

I can't wait for the big collapse. I'm loading my popcorn stock.

hopefully you have enough savings because you will be unemployed then.



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the US can pay any debt at any time:

Yup, with more debts.

ahah 

[evok3d]

LOL

And people are happy that the USD value has gone up!

I wonder what will happen after the ride is on the way down? Hopefully they can back the print of money with something worthy.

[Erdogan]

It is strange that that map says the US debt is $14 trillion. It is over $18 trillion by now.

I checked the map. It is saying that all the countries have some debt, even the green ones. I wonder, then who is lending ? I mean, is there any country without a debt ?

p.s. Sorry, I'm not good in economics.

The first thing to know about governments, is that the government is not the people. The state, that is they, not us.

Governments loan from individuals in the area that is extended to the point where the next government is stronger, also called a country. They also loan from individuals in other countries. (They also loan from other governments, but that is not a part of the answer to your question).

Using currency manipulation, the governments move value from lenders to loaners, including themselves, but that does not change the fact that there is a lender somewhere for each loan.

All loans could in theory be paid back, extinguishing all debt. If the loaners are not able or willing to pay back, the loans could be written off as a loss, same result in the aggregate.

tl;dr Individuals are net lenders to governments.

[criptix]

It is strange that that map says the US debt is $14 trillion. It is over $18 trillion by now.

I checked the map. It is saying that all the countries have some debt, even the green ones. I wonder, then who is lending ? I mean, is there any country without a debt ?

p.s. Sorry, I'm not good in economics.

[...]
All loans could in theory be paid back, extinguishing all debt. If the loaners are not able or willing to pay back, the loans could be written off as a loss, same result in the aggregate.
[...]

could you explain how this can work in a system operated under fractional reserve? (except for mass defaulting of the loans)

[Erdogan]

A profound form of lending that is occuring in great volume right now, is the so called uncovered entitlements. It goes like this:

We have decided to give you a heart operation when you need it in the future (yes, we are that good). Since not everybody needs one, the smart thing to give you is an insurance for it instead. So here you are, the check for the insurance is already in the mail.

But wait... it is we who are the insurance company, so we just keep the money, in stead of we paying you and you paying back. That's more practical.

The money is not needed now, so we just loan them from the insurance department now and use it or give it to our friends to use. We will pay back sometime, promise!

[Erdogan]

It is strange that that map says the US debt is $14 trillion. It is over $18 trillion by now.

I checked the map. It is saying that all the countries have some debt, even the green ones. I wonder, then who is lending ? I mean, is there any country without a debt ?

p.s. Sorry, I'm not good in economics.

[...]
All loans could in theory be paid back, extinguishing all debt. If the loaners are not able or willing to pay back, the loans could be written off as a loss, same result in the aggregate.
[...]

could you explain how this can work in a system operated under fractional reserve? (except for mass defaulting of the loans)

Fractional reserve does not change this (it just adds risk of nonpayment). Even I do not want a debt free system, although it could theoretically work for capital (only personal loans for consumption are strictly necessary, businesses could just have more investors in stead). The point is that there are lenders, ultimately those lenders are persons, and in the aggregate, non government persons are the net lenders to the government persons.

Hey, you clipped the anti government rant from my post, I shouldn't reply to you.

[Gyfts]

And who says bitcoin is not the solution to all these problems.

Well, Bitcoin can easily crash too. It happened a bit ago, no one can predict it going to complete 0. As far as Bitcoin being a solution for an economic meltdown, I just don't see that happening. It's no surprise Bitcoin isn't a mainstream thing, so for people to say, "forget fiat, hello Bitcoin" to a currency with fluctuating prices, I see that is least feasible. The US needs to stop getting so involved in foreign affairs. Keep manufacturing in the country and maybe we wouldn't owe trillions to China.

[Erdogan]

And who says bitcoin is not the solution to all these problems.

Well, Bitcoin can easily crash too. It happened a bit ago, no one can predict it going to complete 0. As far as Bitcoin being a solution for an economic meltdown, I just don't see that happening. It's no surprise Bitcoin isn't a mainstream thing, so for people to say, "forget fiat, hello Bitcoin" to a currency with fluctuating prices, I see that is least feasible. The US needs to stop getting so involved in foreign affairs. Keep manufacturing in the country and maybe we wouldn't owe trillions to China.

Bitcoin is the solution to unsound lending (lenders who have not saved, and loaners who are not willing or able to pay back). Lending reduced to a prudent level will be the result of the all bitcoin endgame. Obviously, because of this, governments will have to be smaller, and the idea of having a government at all will wane. Anarchy!! Now, get out of bitcoin and hoard your dollars, cowards!

[CoinCidental]

And who says bitcoin is not the solution to all these problems.

Well, Bitcoin can easily crash too. It happened a bit ago, no one can predict it going to complete 0. As far as Bitcoin being a solution for an economic meltdown, I just don't see that happening. It's no surprise Bitcoin isn't a mainstream thing, so for people to say, "forget fiat, hello Bitcoin" to a currency with fluctuating prices, I see that is least feasible. The US needs to stop getting so involved in foreign affairs. Keep manufacturing in the country and maybe we wouldn't owe trillions to China.

The problem with that is a us workforce costs 5-10x times more than China or Pakistan or Phillipine or Vietnam etc

[Erdogan]

And who says bitcoin is not the solution to all these problems.

Well, Bitcoin can easily crash too. It happened a bit ago, no one can predict it going to complete 0. As far as Bitcoin being a solution for an economic meltdown, I just don't see that happening. It's no surprise Bitcoin isn't a mainstream thing, so for people to say, "forget fiat, hello Bitcoin" to a currency with fluctuating prices, I see that is least feasible. The US needs to stop getting so involved in foreign affairs. Keep manufacturing in the country and maybe we wouldn't owe trillions to China.

The problem with that is a us workforce costs 5-10x times more than China or Pakistan or Phillipine or Vietnam etc

That spread will have to be closed, don't you think?

[CoinCidental]

And who says bitcoin is not the solution to all these problems.

Well, Bitcoin can easily crash too. It happened a bit ago, no one can predict it going to complete 0. As far as Bitcoin being a solution for an economic meltdown, I just don't see that happening. It's no surprise Bitcoin isn't a mainstream thing, so for people to say, "forget fiat, hello Bitcoin" to a currency with fluctuating prices, I see that is least feasible. The US needs to stop getting so involved in foreign affairs. Keep manufacturing in the country and maybe we wouldn't owe trillions to China.

The problem with that is a us workforce costs 5-10x times more than China or Pakistan or Phillipine or Vietnam etc

That spread will have to be closed, don't you think?

i think as long as there are millions of people in the third world willing to work in sweatshops for $1-2  a  day (children included )
then theres no way manufacturing will return to USA or northern Europe where we have human rights and minimum wages and workers unions

even the huge companies like apple and Nike are happy to exploit these countries while selling their goods for top dollar prices in "rich countries"


i dont see  that changing anytime soon

[Elwar]

I went on one of those mortgage calculator sites and plugged in our current $18 trillion debt.

With a generous rate of 2%, if we stop borrowing more and start paying a mere $800 billion per year toward the debt we'll have it paid of in 2045.

With annual income tax revenue of $1.3 trillion, that leaves us $500 billion for everything else (including our national defense which we currently spend $526 billion on).

Maybe we can save money on earmarks which cost around $1 billion per year (don't laugh, that was John McCain's entire economic strategy).

[johnyj]

I went on one of those mortgage calculator sites and plugged in our current $18 trillion debt.

With a generous rate of 2%, if we stop borrowing more and start paying a mere $800 billion per year toward the debt we'll have it paid of in 2045.

With annual income tax revenue of $1.3 trillion, that leaves us $500 billion for everything else (including our national defense which we currently spend $526 billion on).

Maybe we can save money on earmarks which cost around $1 billion per year (don't laugh, that was John McCain's entire economic strategy).

I'm afraid that those 1.3 trillion tax revenue only comes when you continuously increase the debt and print more money. If the debt is repaid, the money in economy will be destroyed, means less money to pay the tax, when the day that all the debt is paid off, there will be no money in economy, thus no income tax revenue  

[zimmah]

and to whom do we owe this debt?

[CoinCidental]

and to whom do we owe this debt?

about 1.3 trillion to china ,1.2 trillion to japan and the other 12 trillion is national debt to the fed ,4 trillion has been printed fresh via quantative easing
interest alone is nearing  450 billion a year

[zimmah]

and to whom do we owe this debt?

about 1.3 trillion to china ,1.2 trillion to japan and the other 12 trillion is national debt to the fed ,4 trillion has been printed fresh via quantative easing
interest alone is nearing  450 billion a year

then how come china and japan are in debt?

to whom do they owe it?

and where did the fed get all this money?

Oh wait, the fed doesnt even have money...

So why allow them to control our lives, because they are the only ones who can magically poof money debt into existence?

Why should we even pay them what they claim we owe them? What right do they have to claim it is their money?

Just give them all the paper trash called federal reserve notes back and let them shove it in their asses and let's just all use bitcoin or gold or silver or whatever else is fair to use. We dont owe them anything.

[Elwar]

and to whom do we owe this debt?

It is owed to anyone who has purchased:
    U.S. Treasury notes and bonds
    Foreign and domestic series certificates of indebtedness, notes and bonds
    Savings bonds
    Government Account Series (GAS)
    State and Local Government series (SLGs) and other special purpose securities.


I remember when Ross Perot ran, his main focus was the $3 trillion debt. He wanted to pay it down in 7 years. Now we have $3 trillion budgets.

[LiteCoinGuy]

I can't wait for the big collapse. I'm loading my popcorn stock.

hopefully you have enough savings because you will be unemployed then.



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the US can pay any debt at any time:

Yup, with more debts.

No, i dont mean more debt. They can do it with their cool printing-machines :-)

http://www.cnbc.com/id/44051683

[Maegfaer]

All loans could in theory be paid back, extinguishing all debt. If the loaners are not able or willing to pay back, the loans could be written off as a loss, same result in the aggregate.

Defaulting is not paying back, so that first sentence is incorrect. Due to interest on debit being higher overall than interest on credit, there is always more debit than credit in the system, and debit will always grow faster. If everyone would pay their debts or otherwise default and lose any collateral, the banks would end up with most of the world's property. That by itself shows the banks being parasites, since they never created anything of value themselves, they only moved and manipulated money, yet they'd own almost everything.

[Erdogan]

All loans could in theory be paid back, extinguishing all debt. If the loaners are not able or willing to pay back, the loans could be written off as a loss, same result in the aggregate.

Defaulting is not paying back, so that first sentence is incorrect. Due to interest on debit being higher overall than interest on credit, there is always more debit than credit in the system, and debit will always grow faster. If everyone would pay their debts or otherwise default and lose any collateral, the banks would end up with most of the world's property. That by itself shows the banks being parasites, since they never created anything of value themselves, they only moved and manipulated money, yet they'd own almost everything.

You are right. Modified: All loans could either be paid back or written off, extinguishing all debt.