Spondoolies-Tech vs Bitmain for a larger operation?

[CptTripps]

Hey gang. I'm new here.

Quick background: My company has been in the financial tech space for 10y and currently processes about 500M transactions annually in the Gift/Loyalty space. We have an interest in linking crypto currencies, and that's what brings me here.

I have a friend with a company that has a 500 TH/s operation using the Antminer S5. We're looking at building something similar in the coming weeks, but after I started researching, I came across the Spondoolies-Tech SP20.

Looks like bang-for-buck has the SP20 in the lead, but I didn't know what else I should be looking at. I've tried searching here, but it's currently disabled.

Can anyone point me in a good direction?

I've ordered 5 S5s and 5 SP20s to compare the two.

Pros/Cons?

Thanks for the help. It's appreciated.

[1715158057]

1715158057

[philipma1957]

Hey gang. I'm new here.

Quick background: My company has been in the financial tech space for 10y and currently processes about 500M transactions annually in the Gift/Loyalty space. We have an interest in linking crypto currencies, and that's what brings me here.

I have a friend with a company that has a 500 TH/s operation using the Antminer S5. We're looking at building something similar in the coming weeks, but after I started researching, I came across the Spondoolies-Tech SP20.

Looks like bang-for-buck has the SP20 in the lead, but I didn't know what else I should be looking at. I've tried searching here, but it's currently disabled.

Can anyone point me in a good direction?

I've ordered 5 S5s and 5 SP20s to compare the two.

Pros/Cons?

Thanks for the help. It's appreciated.

I have  multiple threads I will provide links

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=872014.0   sp20

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=907219.0  s-5

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=927941.0  s-5 fan mods

Hard to say what would be better for you.

 But if power is really cheap the sp20's can do 1500gh   

the sp20 can downclock to 900gh and use .46 watts per gh

the sp20 can overclock to 1500gh (even 1650gh with good psu's and good cooling)   and use .61 watts per gh       this large range of hash is nice.

the s5 can overclock to 1300gh and use .54 watts per gh

[chek2fire]

Both of them has a great reputation in bitcoin mining world. Spondoolies i think has greater customer support and bitmain it seems that has a little better machines. Because you are new here be carefull for the scammers. I think already many of them has pm you and will say that the are from this companies

[CptTripps]

chek2fire: I already have appropriate contacts at both companies, so I can weed out the scammers pretty quickly. I'm not likely to place a 6-figure order from a guy on a forum. 


philipma1957: Thanks for the links. Normally I'd search but that function is disabled.

[philipma1957]

chek2fire: I already have appropriate contacts at both companies, so I can weed out the scammers pretty quickly. I'm not likely to place a 6-figure order from a guy on a forum.  


philipma1957: Thanks for the links. Normally I'd search but that function is disabled.

no worries glad to do it.

either piece of gear is pretty good.  

bitmaintech sells a 52 pack at a discount

sp-tech sells a 15 pack at a discount

Both companies will negotiate a bit on larger buys.

If you set it up let us know .

One more thing in favor of sp20 it you can list 8 pools  vs 3 pools on the s-5.

sidehack may be able to get you good 2000 watts server psu's


https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=130792  his profile

http://www.gekkoscience.com/products/IBM2K_board.html  his breakout board for 2000 watt psu's

[sidehack]

Oh yeah, hey there. The official sales thread for the server PSU stuff we build is at https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=940317.0

I'm actually a bit short on the 2000W PSU itself right now but I'm working on finding more sources. I do have plenty of interface boards in stock if you want to test anything out. Feel free to ask questions.

Sorry I can't offer advice on whether to fetch an S5 or SP20, I have neither so I haven't done any comparisons.

[Xian01]

Can't go wrong with either SPTech or Bitmain for the time being. Bitmain, IMO, is priced a bit high at the moment but it's really a coin-toss between the S5 and SP20. Both are great products.

Personally, I'm favoring SPTech lately, and feel that Bitmain is starting to become hostile towards the home miner.

Having said that, I understand SPTech is not targeting the home mining market for their next gen, so, the entire mining scene is in a transition right now with Bitmain seemingly starting to go the BitFury route

[dogie]

Something which hasn't been mentioned yet, S6

[entirely speculative post based on thin air]

[CptTripps]

Thanks sidehack. I'll look at that, and PM you my email address so we can take it off-line.

I have a lot (like....300) older Dell 1200W PSUs from our old server farm. (Back when we still had iron servers) Perhaps I can use those? I know we have a ton of 750s too. I'll take inventory. Maybe they'll be useful....maybe not.

Some quick math has the Spondoolies coming out ahead. From the websites, the 52 and 15 unit pricing has the S5 with a Price Per TH at $357 and the SP20 at $215. That's a no-brainer. I haven't factored power consumption in yet. Still building out my Excel sheet.

[Bicknellski]

Can't go wrong with either SPTech or Bitmain for the time being. Bitmain, IMO, is priced a bit high at the moment but it's really a coin-toss between the S5 and SP20. Both are great products.

Personally, I'm favoring SPTech lately, and feel that Bitmain is starting to become hostile towards the home miner.

Having said that, I understand SPTech is not targeting the home mining market for their next gen, so, the entire mining scene is in a transition right now with Bitmain seemingly starting to go the BitFury route

Where else can anyone go?

The home market is dead.

The commercial cloud operations are the only people willing to buy in enough volume to keep these fabricators from folding up shop. This was the last time you will see most of these companies hawking wares here.

[sidehack]

Personally, I'm favoring SPTech lately, and feel that Bitmain is starting to become hostile towards the home miner.

Having said that, I understand SPTech is not targeting the home mining market for their next gen

Just a note on that distinction, because Bitmain has never made a miner that didn't fit a home-mining market, and before the SP20 Spondoolies never made a miner that did.

Depending on the model of Dell 1200, it might not take much to set you up with a good interface. We have all kinds of stuff for the 750s. Sure, drop a line.

[dogie]

Some quick math has the Spondoolies coming out ahead. From the websites, the 52 and 15 unit pricing has the S5 with a Price Per TH at $357 and the SP20 at $215. That's a no-brainer. I haven't factored power consumption in yet. Still building out my Excel sheet.

Its worth balancing the S5 to 1250GH and the SP20 to 1625GH as those are the numbers most people achieve. SP20s do struggle to get up to rated speed, especially with any sort of ambient temperature while most people seem to get up to 1300GH with a sturdy PSU.

Also, if you drop me a PM [I'll give it to sales manager] I'm sure you can get a better price on the S5 for bulk.

[Xian01]

Something which hasn't been mentioned yet, S6
[entirely speculative post based on thin air]

I'm honestly really looking forward to the S6, and any official water cooled solutions they have using their latest chips.

EDIT: Although I just picked up 3 more SP20's off EBay to replace all my S3's, so I have no idea where I'd put an S6 if it won't run on a 120V circuit...

[Xian01]

Just a note on that distinction, because Bitmain has never made a miner that didn't fit a home-mining market

... and splitting hairs, one could argue that the noise generated by the S5 does not make it suitable for the home-mining market without fan modifications.

Downclocked SP20's at 20% fans doing a steady 1300GHs @ ~750W and are about as loud as an S3 going full tilt (~55-60dBA)

The S5's, which do not allow manual fan control, run at ~70dBA.

Disclaimer: I have empty rooms available to me that I house loud miners in, so my "home-mining" setup might not represent the norm - Running SP20's full tilt @ ~1.6GHs

[CptTripps]

The room we're going to be using for our operation formerly had 6 42U racks of gear in it. We have plenty of power and cooling available. I know the form factor of these is quite a bit different than a typical server rack environment, but we're confident we can modify it to work for the space. We have absurdly cheap power pricing, so that's why we're considering this.

Noise isn't a factor here. Just looking for the best bang/buck.

[Xian01]

Noise isn't a factor here. Just looking for the best bang/buck.

Honestly, it's probably a coin toss if you're doing a large purchase.

The build quality of the SPTech products is higher, but the Bitmain products will probably end up being the best "bang-for-buck" option IMO, but you're likely to have more issues with the Bitmain products in my experience.

The SPTech stuff "just works" and is solid.

If I could make an analogy, SPTech would be Mac, and Bitmain would be PC.

[CanaryInTheMine]

You should run your operation as a business where you can take advantage of depreciation.
One other item you should consider is the final resale value.  No one knows this offcourse, but make a super conservative estimate.

In the next 2 months we're likely to see new equipment from several manufacturers...

Do the math as it may be better to buy btc right now and hold them for those 2 months etc...

[CptTripps]

If I could make an analogy, SPTech would be Mac, and Bitmain would be PC.

I was actually going to ask that very question in my initial post, but didn't want to start a whole other debate!

Me = Mac guy: I have the 6-color apple logo tattooed on my left arm...

[tvasbn]

this guys have chosen S5:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLWC_FI3B1g

[tvasbn]

anyway for the best $/Gh/Power consumtion, and since you already have 6 racks, you coul go for the SP35

[CptTripps]

anyway for the best $/Gh/Power consumtion, and since you already have 6 racks, you coul go for the SP35

The PPTH on those is actually pretty high. I already ran the math on the SP35. It's $405 per TH.

this guys have chosen S5:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLWC_FI3B1g

That's the friend I mentioned in post #1.  

[Xian01]

Me = Mac guy: I have the 6-color apple logo tattooed on my left arm...

[meta] FWIW, Professionally, I've been an exclusive Mac guy since about 2004. Still a hardcore gamer today, so I have a beefy PC rig for play/VR stuff, and the latest Mac Pro and MBP 15's for work.

I appreciate stuff that "just works" which is why I switched from Windows to Mac back then to begin with - had too many problems with PC's crashing doing heavy audio work, switching back and forth between programs... but that's another story...

It's for that same reason that I'm beginning to appreciate SPTech products, and am sad to hear they are leaving the "home-miner" market, but c'est la vie...

[philipma1957]

anyway for the best $/Gh/Power consumtion, and since you already have 6 racks, you coul go for the SP35

but that will be certainly very hard to sell off in 4-6 months.


op mentions low power cost so if he uses :

1600 for the sp20   .61-.65 per watt

 1275 for the s-5    .51 -.55  per watt

he has the 'safe' high numbers to predict earnings.

[CptTripps]

but that will be certainly very hard to sell off in 4-6 months.

That's certainly a serious consideration. Looking at what the older hardware is bringing is part of the equation for me. To do this, I researched what the S3 originally sold for and what they're going for now to get a ballpark. Not a perfect science, but it's a consideration.

Like I said earlier, I ordered 5 of each and will rung them for a week or so to get a sense of which we like better from a management standpoint. There is still a lot to look into before I go ordering 150-300 of these things.

The information you all are providing is helping quite a bit. I really appreciate it!

[philipma1957]

but that will be certainly very hard to sell off in 4-6 months.

That's certainly a serious consideration. Looking at what the older hardware is bringing is part of the equation for me. To do this, I researched what the S3 originally sold for and what they're going for now to get a ballpark. Not a perfect science, but it's a consideration.

Like I said earlier, I ordered 5 of each and will rung them for a week or so to get a sense of which we like better from a management standpoint. There is still a lot to look into before I go ordering 150-300 of these things.

The information you all are providing is helping quite a bit. I really appreciate it!

 I do not have the resource of low power cost to consider it for my setup.

 I actually do like both a lot.

 If I lived alone and power was cheaper in my area I would most likely run a lot of both.

By a lot  my home could run 30 at the max, but I would not mind having 50 sp20's and 20 s-5's  in a nearby warehouse.

 The issue is cost of setup + power is too high in NJ, USA .

   I can't get power less the 9 cents even with commercial rates.  It is sad that if I go to this hosting area in CHINA

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=934581.0   and get 30 s-5's  from him to be hosted by him I can't match it anywhere near my home.

[CptTripps]

$.09 is about 2X what I'm paying in OH. I feel for you guys.

[philipma1957]

$.09 is about 2X what I'm paying in OH. I feel for you guys.

yeah at $0.045  a kwatt

 I would buy some gear.

[dogie]

$.09 is about 2X what I'm paying in OH. I feel for you guys.

yeah at $0.045  a kwatt

 I would buy some gear.

I'd sell bottled hot water at that price Running the numbers if you could insulate them excellently, its not far off break even to ship pallets of hot water to the UK. So fucked up.

[tntdgcr]

lot of SP20s .... what's large?

[btcshiner]

$.09 is about 2X what I'm paying in OH. I feel for you guys.

yeah at $0.045  a kwatt

 I would buy some gear.

I'd sell bottled hot water at that price Running the numbers if you could insulate them excellently, its not far off break even to ship pallets of hot water to the UK. So fucked up.

Is there a large market in the UK for "hot bottled water"?  In the US we sell room temp or chilled bottled water.

[sidehack]

He's probably looking at the efficiency of an electric water heater vs the cost of shipping that much mass across five time zones/Atlantic ocean. Wherein it'd cost pretty much the same to heat water at $0.45 in Ohio, palletize it and send it the several thousand miles to a British man in need of a shower (or tea?), as it would for said British man to heat the water locally using the same equipment at a much higher power cost.

Which... that's an interesting way of looking at power cost distributions.

[CptTripps]

lot of SP20s .... what's large?

Oh, I don't know...thinking about 120 of them or so?


Looking at the Hashcoins Uranus is interesting...gotta run the numbers on that one too.

[sidehack]

I'd buy it if it were shaped like a donut.

[kendog77]

In my opinion, right now is a terrible time to invest in a lot of new mining hardware. Current generation mining hardware (.5-.6 W/GH) has been available since October, and next generation hardware with twice the efficiency is right around the corner and should be available within the next month or two.

If you buy now, your .5-.6 W/GH farm will be quickly obsolete. Also, given the current price of BTC, best case you're looking at at least 9-12 months to get your money back depending on your overhead costs. If your overhead costs (rent, electricity, utilities, labor, ...) exceed 10 cents / kwh, you have no business running a mining farm.

If you believe in BTC, and since the price is currently low, you could buy some BTC directly and hold it as a hedge against rising prices and use it to buy more efficient gear once it is available.

If the BTC price spikes, your hardware purchase just got less expensive. Hardware manufacturers will charge as much as the market will bear, so a spike in the price of BTC will make all mining hardware more expensive.

If the BTC price tanks further, it makes zero economic sense to invest in mining hardware and you dodged a bullet.

[mavericklm]

I'll wait a bit and buy a used farm and/or mini farms. With the price atm, some will give up and sell low just to get out from mining!

[the joint]

@OP, I chuckled a bit at your enthusiasm, buying five of each to "compare the two." 

Is there any reason you didn't just get two SP20 Nano Farms?

[dogie]

He's probably looking at the efficiency of an electric water heater vs the cost of shipping that much mass across five time zones/Atlantic ocean. Wherein it'd cost pretty much the same to heat water at $0.45 in Ohio, palletize it and send it the several thousand miles to a British man in need of a shower (or tea?), as it would for said British man to heat the water locally using the same equipment at a much higher power cost.

Which... that's an interesting way of looking at power cost distributions.

Yeah that's what I was getting at [but $0.045]. There's probably a lighter/denser way to palletise 'heat' [super heated steam?] but even with water its not far away. Which is so, so, so stupid. For reference most residential power in the UK is about $0.22. If you could find somewhere in the US with high power costs, you'd only have to fill containers with insullated baffling and train it across the country.

[philipma1957]

He's probably looking at the efficiency of an electric water heater vs the cost of shipping that much mass across five time zones/Atlantic ocean. Wherein it'd cost pretty much the same to heat water at $0.45 in Ohio, palletize it and send it the several thousand miles to a British man in need of a shower (or tea?), as it would for said British man to heat the water locally using the same equipment at a much higher power cost.

Which... that's an interesting way of looking at power cost distributions.

Yeah that's what I was getting at [but $0.045]. There's probably a lighter/denser way to palletise 'heat' [super heated steam?] but even with water its not far away. Which is so, so, so stupid. For reference most residential power in the UK is about $0.22. If you could find somewhere in the US with high power costs, you'd only have to fill containers with insullated baffling and train it across the country.

southern California is over 30 cents

Heck My power is 16 cents in the summer. I am in New Jersey   less then 900 miles from op.

[CptTripps]

If your overhead costs (rent, electricity, utilities, labor, ...) exceed 10 cents / kwh, you have no business running a mining farm.

Rent is already covered...and we have plenty of space available for this. I've got plenty of people...utilities are way less than average and this kind of power load is already budgeted.

If you believe in BTC, and since the price is currently low, you could buy some BTC directly and hold it as a hedge against rising prices and use it to buy more efficient gear once it is available.

That's precisely what I did last week. I bought at $217 with the plan to use that for the farm we're looking at building. If we don't buy a thing, I can sell the BTC and make $. If we end up buying gear, we're buying at a better price.

@OP, I chuckled a bit at your enthusiasm, buying five of each to "compare the two."  

Is there any reason you didn't just get two SP20 Nano Farms?

Yeah, I tend to "go big" quickly. I actually ended up buying 1 nano farm. I had it in my head to buy 5...but we bought 3 because the TH/s of the 3-node SP20 was roughly the same as the 5 S5s. So I'll be comparing 3 SP20s to 5 S5s.

I see the thread got moved...hope I didn't do something wrong.

Thanks for the opinions and help guys. It really does help and keep things in perspective for me.

[philipma1957]

It was placed in spec  thread due to guessing which machine is better.

As least that is my guess.

[Korbman]

EDIT: I noticed the equipment totals changed to 5 AntMiners and 3 SP20s. Though this changes the overall numbers, the concept is still the same.

This is actually kind of an interesting thread.

@OP - If you are legit, don't purchase any mining gear....yet.
With the 10 miners you've purchased for BTC19 (or the fiat equivalent), I imagine you're running at about 14.3 TH/s, generating BTC0.17394234 per day at the current difficulty (or $39.14 @ $225 per coin). Using roughly 9 kWh for the gear alone, you're daily electricity costs should be around $9.67 (since you hinted toward $0.045 per kWh), and that's fantastic! It means you're difficulty ceiling (the point where revenue is equal to expenses) is a bit over 167,042,141,322, or 4 times where we're at today.

Obviously you're in a good position given your datacenter setup (racks, cooling, power capabilities) and cheap electricity. The problem is the low price per Bitcoin. Recouping the initial test expense of BTC19 would take ~110 days...but only if the difficulty remains constant. There will be ~8-9 difficulty changes between now and your hypothetical breakeven point. So the fun, and challenging, part of researching a feasible setup is determining what the difficulty will look like after 8, 9, 10 adjustments and how that ultimately changes your breakeven analysis.

So! I noted "yet" above because it may be better to wait for the price per coin to increase (not guaranteed of course) or to wait for the next generation of more efficient hardware to come to market (which is, unfortunately, also an unknown). Waiting on the latter is usually my preference because most massive mining operations will have already implemented the gear by the time smaller operations can even begin purchasing it. That usually gives me an opportunity to see how the network reacts and how the difficulty rises, allowing me to readjust my predictions as necessary before making the purchase (if it's still feasible).

[CptTripps]

Korbman: What an incredibly informative and thoughtful post. I appreciate it! I'd already started factoring quite a bit of that, so another "set of eyes" on this is appreciated.

I'd come up with similar numbers built using an excel sheet that I've been hobbling together over the last week. I'm used to dealing with headcounts, salaries, project scopes and timelines....getting down and dirty with the most basic of economics is a refreshing change.

That's why I wanted to start with a small operation...made up of two different kinds of gear. See which is easier to setup and maintain and take actual temperature readings to see what we need to do about cooling.

My friend (referenced earlier, and in a video link that someone else posted) just finished a 500TH deployment with the S5, and the older 150TH they decommissioned was only a year old. So I need to factor in a yearly hardware swap. That being said, I'm likely to be in a better position with a particular manufacturer if I am already buying/using their gear.

Just checked the order status, and it looks like I'll have my S5s on Monday...no shipping info for the SP20s yet.

[kendog77]

If history is any guide, I would expect to see an announcement from Bitmain soon on the S6. The S6 should be more efficient than the S5, so I would not be surprised to see specs at around 3.5 TH / 1400 W (.4 W/GH).

Also, Spondoolies is a wild card since they have given no information about their next generation Pick-Axe chip. It could be available next month or months from now.

But, since your power costs and overhead are so low, I think a huge competitive advantage over 95% of the other miners out there, so loading up on current generation hardware would probably be very profitable for you unless the entire BTC mining market implodes due to low BTC value.

Mining hardware one generation old also has decent resale value, so reselling on Ebay is not too difficult when you want to upgrade.

[CptTripps]

Here's a breakdown of what I've spent so far. This will become useful in a week or two after I've let everything run for a bit and then I can compare apples to apples.

=============================================
Antminer S5 build:  

5 Antminer S5 @ $449.99ea = $2,249.95     (I bought these on Amazon. I know I can get it cheaper, but this was state-side and easy.)
5 Corsair CX750M power supplies @ $79.99ea = $399.95
Total: $2,649.90

Expected Specs:

6,500 GH/s @ 590W (Edited)
=============================================

=============================================
SDTech SP20 build:

3 Spondoolies Tech SP20 = $1,195.00
3 EVGA SuperNOVA 1300G2 @ $169ea = $507.00
Total: $1,702

Expected Specs:

4,800 GH/s @ 1,200W (Edited)
=============================================

For arguments sake, let's assume power costs $0.05 kwh.

I'm going to factor all this together and see where it lands. (I'm still trying to get my excel sheet to work correctly.) Right now it looks kinda like a toss-up.

[Syke]

I'm going to factor all this together and see where it lands. (I'm still trying to get my excel sheet to work correctly.) Right now it looks kinda like a toss-up.

Put the S5 at 1.3 TH/s, and the SP20 at 1.6 TH/s. Those are more realistic numbers.

[Syke]

Looking at the Hashcoins Uranus is interesting...gotta run the numbers on that one too.

Ack, no!!! Don't waste your time. There are no options outside of Bitmain and Spondoolies. None.

[tntdgcr]

Looking at the Hashcoins Uranus is interesting...gotta run the numbers on that one too.

Ack, no!!! Don't waste your time. There are no options outside of Bitmain and Spondoolies. None.

That's 100% the truth ... for the OP , I have 120+ hosted SP20s that I've been mining if you want to try them out. Nothing like skipping DHL Customs

[padrino]

If you are serious about building an operation at the scale you mentioned earlier you could certainly improve your power choices, you are taking a capital and 10-15% efficiency hit with what you choose.. If you are going to scale it up there are much better options...

For example I pulled together a build in a US data center for a customer last fall, about 150Th/s.. Coincidentally I was deploying within a week of one of Bitmain's US deployments (they have a few) and deployed the power for about 10K less in capital, and used 12% less power.. So much of a difference the data center execs came to me to help invalidate Bitmain's claims power wasn't being measured correctly.. Sure enough the PSUs Bitmain choose were poor..

[CptTripps]

If you are serious about building an operation at the scale you mentioned earlier you could certainly improve your power choices, you are taking a capital and 10-15% efficiency hit with what you choose.. If you are going to scale it up there are much better options...

That's an excellent point.

I'm going to look at the PSUs that I already have, but more efficient choices could make a big difference at this scale. A 100w difference per PSU would add up to 12,000W diff at the end.

[sidehack]

If you're looking at 120 PSUs outputting S5-range power (say, 600W) 100W per PSU is the difference between a 93% efficient quality unit and an 80% piece of junk. Hopefully the range of options you look at don't have that much range.
The difference between 93% and 90% at a 2KW output from a big fat PSU is about 72W per PSU.

[Korbman]

Korbman: What an incredibly informative and thoughtful post. I appreciate it! I'd already started factoring quite a bit of that, so another "set of eyes" on this is appreciated.

I'm always happy to help where I can, and I'm glad you found my post informative. Mining on a larger scale tends to be vastly more complex than most people realize, and while I'm sure you know that, I still try to point out some "things to think about" for anyone else reading the forums.

I'd come up with similar numbers built using an excel sheet that I've been hobbling together over the last week. I'm used to dealing with headcounts, salaries, project scopes and timelines....getting down and dirty with the most basic of economics is a refreshing change.

Not sure if you've started doing this yet, but what I've always tried to do is to simplify *everything* down to what it costs per kWh (employee hourly rates, space rental, cooling...really any reoccurring expense) and add it to your electricity costs. The idea being to create an all encompassing expense, an example being $0.08 per kWh ($0.03 to cover monthly rent, monitoring, and maintenance + $0.05 for the raw electrical rate). I've found this usually helps when making difficulty and revenue predictions (among other things).

Other than that, my biggest question comes down to depreciation...and this is something I'm also asking the other experienced miners / veterans (both to help with my models and with CptTripps' setup). Is there a standard depreciation method you use for your hardware, or do you typically just run the equipment until it's no longer valued at anything (ending its useful life)?

[Biodom]

Korbman: What an incredibly informative and thoughtful post. I appreciate it! I'd already started factoring quite a bit of that, so another "set of eyes" on this is appreciated.

I'm always happy to help where I can, and I'm glad you found my post informative. Mining on a larger scale tends to be vastly more complex than most people realize, and while I'm sure you know that, I still try to point out some "things to think about" for anyone else reading the forums.

I'd come up with similar numbers built using an excel sheet that I've been hobbling together over the last week. I'm used to dealing with headcounts, salaries, project scopes and timelines....getting down and dirty with the most basic of economics is a refreshing change.

Not sure if you've started doing this yet, but what I've always tried to do is to simplify *everything* down to what it costs per kWh (employee hourly rates, space rental, cooling...really any reoccurring expense) and add it to your electricity costs. The idea being to create an all encompassing expense, an example being $0.08 per kWh ($0.03 to cover monthly rent, monitoring, and maintenance + $0.05 for the raw electrical rate). I've found this usually helps when making difficulty and revenue predictions (among other things).

Other than that, my biggest question comes down to depreciation...and this is something I'm also asking the other experienced miners / veterans (both to help with my models and with CptTripps' setup). Is there a standard depreciation method you use for your hardware, or do you typically just run the equipment until it's no longer valued at anything (ending its useful life)?

it's very difficult to figure out depreciation because it depends on the BTC price in $$, euro, etc..
Example: even the smallest piece of gear increased in price 3-10 fold in December of 2013 because BTC priced moved from $130 to $1200 in a space of 2-3 months.

[TheRealSteve]

I'd simplify it even further and take the gamble and headache of difficulty/revenue out of the equation altogether by planning for a total Thash/s output - a lot of the other numbers will fall into place, and the toss-up depends more on how long you plan to be running the operation (operational costs will make one overtake the other) and what you think you can get for it on the market once you upgrade or shut down.

[sidehack]

Make sure to consider underclockability into total machine life. If the S5 and SP20 are about neck-and-neck when the S5 is at stock and SP20 is already underclocked, consider where the practical volt/clock floor is for each machine. When something reaches breakeven returns, it might be made to run at a more efficient setpoint and hold on longer at reduced returns (but still above operating costs) so the machine with more room to go down in W/GH would be viable longer. The S1s built 14 months ago can be made to operate as efficiently as a stock Prisma.

[Medow]

I am in the exact situation here.

We have a cheap power here with a  rate of 2 cent per kw, and we are start to build our own farm. When me and my team decide on which gear to go with then at the last step we make a new  decision to wait for more 2 months to see what will go on with the new gears that we expect to come out next 2 our 3 months from now.

I advice you to wait a little bit, because it better to have a better deficiency than to be sorry.

[CptTripps]

That's 100% the truth ... for the OP , I have 120+ hosted SP20s that I've been mining if you want to try them out. Nothing like skipping DHL Customs

Already have my waybills, but I appreciate the offer.

I'd simplify it even further and take the gamble and headache of difficulty/revenue out of the equation altogether by planning for a total Thash/s output

I do like simplifying things. But I want a good handle on all the unit economics before I start making things easy on myself. That's a great point though.

With my company, we used to break everything down to the cost per transaction. After a few years we realized that logic was flawed as our volume went up exponentially but other costs went up as well. Once we started concentrating on the unit economics of particular business lines, that's when we started making more money.

This is MUCH simpler math. There are only a few factors involved, which is wonderful. There also appears to be much more volatility. That part is also very different.

I've been researching the hell out of this. There seem to be a lot of opinions, based on the costs. Speculation on the market is an interesting factor to add in. This means I'm going to have to form my own opinion from experience ultimately. That's why we're starting with a 11 TH/s setup.

[sidehack]

Another good way to save money - don't pay employees.

[alh]

Another good way to save money - don't pay employees.

Just to be flippant, does the above mean:

1) Don't hire employees in the first place?

2) Hire them and just don't actually pay them?

[sidehack]

I tend to lean more on option number 1, but a lot of people prefer option number 2. We call those people "bastards".

[CptTripps]

Ha. We already have about 30 people in the office, so that's already covered.

Another observation: Most people seem to just be using wire racks. I'm used to rack-mounted gear, so this is a bit of a change.

[sidehack]

Excellent advice. I have it on good authority that Ohio sucks.

[notlist3d]

I am in the exact situation here.

We have a cheap power here with a  rate of 2 cent per kw, and we are start to build our own farm. When me and my team decide on which gear to go with then at the last step we make a new  decision to wait for more 2 months to see what will go on with the new gears that we expect to come out next 2 our 3 months from now.

I advice you to wait a little bit, because it better to have a better deficiency than to be sorry.

Where are you getting 2 cent kw?

[CptTripps]

Where are you getting 2 cent kw?

Likely China.

[philipma1957]

Make your costs lower than anyone else, and you will do better than anyone else.  Never forget that mining is a zero sum game.  There is only so much pie to go around. 

Long term, the only thing that matters is are your costs lower than others.   Exact figures don't matter, what matters is can you beat labor and electricty rates that others will locate anywhere in the world to achieve. 

I would not be happy about your projected costs, they look bad to me.   You need to improve them.  Look outside of Ohio. 

[Medow]

I am in the exact situation here.

We have a cheap power here with a  rate of 2 cent per kw, and we are start to build our own farm. When me and my team decide on which gear to go with then at the last step we make a new  decision to wait for more 2 months to see what will go on with the new gears that we expect to come out next 2 our 3 months from now.

I advice you to wait a little bit, because it better to have a better deficiency than to be sorry.

Where are you getting 2 cent kw?

Where are you getting 2 cent kw?

Likely China.

No, it is not China.

It is Sudan, we have a 2 cent power here for industrial activity.

[stonerider]

^^^^^^^
Mining for btc is a form of GAMBLING. Even if you are not solo mining, you are still assuming a number of risks, not the least of which is btc price.

[CptTripps]

And....we're in business with the S5s.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/28538855/mining_1.png

Spent quite a bit of time talking to Gadi at Spondoolies Tech this AM. I should have those machines by Wednesday.

[dance191]

^^^^^^^
Mining for btc is a form of GAMBLING. Even if you are not solo mining, you are still assuming a number of risks, not the least of which is btc price.

If you hedge your equipment/expected mining value with BTC shorts, you can have minimal risk to the volatility of BTC.

Having a naked position in mining is gambling.  I would say 99% of people are in this category.  So yes, for 99% of people it is gambling.  Personally, it just isn't for me and I don't think it is for any serious operation.

It is just like any other large investment.  You need to get rid of risk.

[pekatete]

^^^^^^^
Mining for btc is a form of GAMBLING. Even if you are not solo mining, you are still assuming a number of risks, not the least of which is btc price.

If you hedge your equipment/expected mining value with BTC shorts, you can have minimal risk to the volatility of BTC.

Having a naked position in mining is gambling.  I would say 99% of people are in this category.  So yes, for 99% of people it is gambling.  Personally, it just isn't for me and I don't think it is for any serious operation.

It is just like any other large investment.  You need to get rid of risk.

Anything you mention in the same context as hedging IS gambling, that is without doubt.

[philipma1957]

^^^^^^^
Mining for btc is a form of GAMBLING. Even if you are not solo mining, you are still assuming a number of risks, not the least of which is btc price.

If you hedge your equipment/expected mining value with BTC shorts, you can have minimal risk to the volatility of BTC.

Having a naked position in mining is gambling.  I would say 99% of people are in this category.  So yes, for 99% of people it is gambling.  Personally, it just isn't for me and I don't think it is for any serious operation.

It is just like any other large investment.  You need to get rid of risk.

  yes and now that coin base has  a usa based exchange put in a buy at 150usd a coin followed by a buy at 125 a coin.    along with two sells of 325 a coin and 350 a coin.

each week I sell my mined coins and  divide the sale into ⅓ then put ⅓ into cash     add ⅓ to my high sell   and ⅓ to my  low buy positions

[dance191]

^^^^^^^
Mining for btc is a form of GAMBLING. Even if you are not solo mining, you are still assuming a number of risks, not the least of which is btc price.

If you hedge your equipment/expected mining value with BTC shorts, you can have minimal risk to the volatility of BTC.

Having a naked position in mining is gambling.  I would say 99% of people are in this category.  So yes, for 99% of people it is gambling.  Personally, it just isn't for me and I don't think it is for any serious operation.

It is just like any other large investment.  You need to get rid of risk.

Anything you mention in the same context as hedging IS gambling, that is without doubt.

I am not sure what you think hedge means.  Use this for a defination:
http://www.investopedia.com/terms/h/hedge.asp

It reduces risk, makes things less of a gamble.  Anyways, I was just trying to point the OP in the right direction, not focus on the defination of words.  I am not sure if this is getting off top. 

Trying to keep things on topic, I would say if your power costs are low, go with the sp20.  The S5 is a good machine, but I question the long term reliability of it.  Each new piece from BitMain has been worse than the last, however I think the S5 is an exception.  Unless your power costs are really high, go with the sp20.  Actually, even if your power costs are high go with the sp20. 

[TheAnalogKid]

And....we're in business with the S5s.

Spent quite a bit of time talking to Gadi at Spondoolies Tech this AM. I should have those machines by Wednesday.

Good luck with the endeavor.

A few comments if I may:

1) Go grab M's Miner Monitor (search the forum or google for mminermonitor).  Written by a member on the board, mdude77.  It can monitor both Antminers as well as SPTech machines.  In addition, one of the more important things, is the ability for it to send alerts and reboot miners based on definable triggers.  Here's a screenshot of what it looks like:


2) As you can see from the screenshot the S5's are fairly over-clockable.  I've gotten most to run very reliably at 387.5 (roughly 1250 GH/s), and some are rock stable at 412.5 (1350 GH/s).  If it runs for more than 3 days at a speed setting, chances are you'll be stable for a very long time at that speed.

3) As you might also see, there's 3 miners down currently, which is common with Antminers - they will blow up occasionally and you will need to replace them.  The original setup was 48 miners.  One fried immediately on powering up, the fan didn't spin up and it wasn't caught in time ... the burning smell alerted to something wrong, and that was it.  I've had 3 of them lose a whole chain (one out of the two boards, as you can see from the .128 machine which has errored out (gone down and needing a physical reboot).  Another one just keeps dying after being up for random amounts of time, so it's worthless.

I use breakout boards from Gekkoscience for the Dell 750 PSU's as well as the DPS-2000BB PSU's.  A single 750 will power an overclocked S5 perfectly fine.  A single 2000BB will easily power 3, and you can get them to power 4 if you have good cooling and stable power (208V though).  I am running 2 S5's per DPS-2000BB simply for cabling and organizational ease.  These boards are indestructable and quality made, I recommend them highly, and they're very accommodating for special orders as well as special cabling needs.

I would also look into the breakout boards from J4bberwock (look in the Marketplace -> Goods section or just search).  He has just come out with boards to run on an IBM 2800 PSU, which will allow you to safely run 5 S5's on a single PSU.

Personally, if I were you, I'd deploy both Antminers as well as SP-20's.  They take the same PSU/wiring setups so you can interchange the units and the PSU's without having to modify anything.  I don't have any SP-20's, but I am ordering an SP-35 unit because I'm curious about the build quality as well as the simple ease of just plugging it in and running, without having to do so much custom wiring.

Finally, for pool choice, with that large of a setup I'd recommend looking at running your own P2Pool node in-house if you can, or possibly contracting Kano or CKolivas to set up your own local pool node using their new pool software (CKPool) and hooking into their pool network (which is already over 6PH).  Mining on BTCGuild is nice, but you're losing quite a bit with the 2% fee at your potential size, and if you're doing as much number crunching to get started, you should take note of the pool and its fees (P2Pool has zero fee, CK has I think 0.9%).  I run my own local private P2Pool node behind a firewall and not exposed to the outside, along with another VM to run just the wallet.  I have been running a side-by-side comparison between P2Pool and BTCGuild and I can tell you from personal experience P2Pool has been getting better returns over the past 3-6 months, as long as you can live with the variance (sometimes 2-3 days between a block).

Feel free to PM if you'd like for more discussion.

[CptTripps]

I've been up and running with the 5 S5s since about 2:30pm today. The SP20s won't arrive for a few days though. I still need to have power re-wired in that room for 208v, so right now, I have the S5s in the data room that we still have servers in. So far, I've been mining at a sustained 5.85 TH/s for the last 5.5h. They've mined 0.00387851 according to the BTC Guild dashboard. Although, the shifts aren't closed, so I'm expecting that to go up. I'll wait a day before I work out the actual calculations.

I'm hoping to have power run to the room I want everything running out of by Thursday. Then I'll run them both for a week and see what the results look like.

I DO like that the S5s are performing at/above the reported specs. Setup was a breeze. I expect the same from the SP20s. I've been looking at the Github repo for the Spondoolies software, and I like that it's seemingly more open. We'll likely build out a lot of custom dashboards and administration portals, so that's important to me too.

The quality on the S5 was a little suspect. One of the heatsinks was caved in...and it was clearly installed that way. The case around it was fine. Little things like that piss me off.

[pekatete]

Anything you mention in the same context as hedging IS gambling, that is without doubt.

I am not sure what you think hedge means.  Use this for a defination:
http://www.investopedia.com/terms/h/hedge.asp

It reduces risk, makes things less of a gamble.  Anyways, I was just trying to point the OP in the right direction, not focus on the defination of words.  I am not sure if this is getting off top.  

Trying to keep things on topic, I would say if your power costs are low, go with the sp20.  The S5 is a good machine, but I question the long term reliability of it.  Each new piece from BitMain has been worse than the last, however I think the S5 is an exception.  Unless your power costs are really high, go with the sp20.  Actually, even if your power costs are high go with the sp20.  

There .... you said it yourself ..... makes things less of a gamble.

[neegeeboo]

I am in the exact situation here.

We have a cheap power here with a  rate of 2 cent per kw, and we are start to build our own farm. When me and my team decide on which gear to go with then at the last step we make a new  decision to wait for more 2 months to see what will go on with the new gears that we expect to come out next 2 our 3 months from now.

I advice you to wait a little bit, because it better to have a better deficiency than to be sorry.

Where are you getting 2 cent kw?

Where are you getting 2 cent kw?

Likely China.

No, it is not China.

It is Sudan, we have a 2 cent power here for industrial activity.

I'm so jelly...

[dance191]

Anything you mention in the same context as hedging IS gambling, that is without doubt.

I am not sure what you think hedge means.  Use this for a defination:
http://www.investopedia.com/terms/h/hedge.asp

It reduces risk, makes things less of a gamble.  Anyways, I was just trying to point the OP in the right direction, not focus on the defination of words.  I am not sure if this is getting off top.  

Trying to keep things on topic, I would say if your power costs are low, go with the sp20.  The S5 is a good machine, but I question the long term reliability of it.  Each new piece from BitMain has been worse than the last, however I think the S5 is an exception.  Unless your power costs are really high, go with the sp20.  Actually, even if your power costs are high go with the sp20.  

There .... you said it yourself ..... makes things less of a gamble.

Yes, it makes it less of a gamble.  You can make it so there is no risk if you want.  Your point is?

Hey, if people want to gamble go for it.  But if it is a business it is different.  Even casinos, where all they do all day is gamble, they manage to turn it not into gambling.  They just want to facilitate the "gamble" and take their house edge as a fee for the transaction.  The law of large numbers makes it not a gamble, but a sure thing.

There are lots of ways to reduce risk, I say to use them.  I will take the sure thing over a gamble anytime.   

[pekatete]

Yes, it makes it less of a gamble.  You can make it so there is no risk if you want.  Your point is?

This ...

.... Having a naked position in mining is gambling. ...

Hedging your position in mining is gambling too. I'll go further and say bitcoin mining is gambling to a large extent.

Anything you mention in the same context as hedging IS gambling, that is without doubt.

It reduces risk, makes things less of a gamble.  Anyways, I was just trying to point the OP in the right direction, not focus on the defination of words.  I am not sure if this is getting off top.

There .... you said it yourself ..... makes things less of a gamble.

I did not want to digress but you've forced my hand .....

It's not just the semantics of whether mining is gambling that you definitely got wrong, or whether hedging your position in mining makes it less so (not negating the fact it is gambling though), it is that you can make such a contradiciting statement, pretend to be ignorant of your error and then proceed to advise on something else! Staggering!

[philipma1957]

I've been up and running with the 5 S5s since about 2:30pm today. The SP20s won't arrive for a few days though. I still need to have power re-wired in that room for 208v, so right now, I have the S5s in the data room that we still have servers in. So far, I've been mining at a sustained 5.85 TH/s for the last 5.5h. They've mined 0.00387851 according to the BTC Guild dashboard. Although, the shifts aren't closed, so I'm expecting that to go up. I'll wait a day before I work out the actual calculations.

I'm hoping to have power run to the room I want everything running out of by Thursday. Then I'll run them both for a week and see what the results look like.

I DO like that the S5s are performing at/above the reported specs. Setup was a breeze. I expect the same from the SP20s. I've been looking at the Github repo for the Spondoolies software, and I like that it's seemingly more open. We'll likely build out a lot of custom dashboards and administration portals, so that's important to me too.

The quality on the S5 was a little suspect. One of the heatsinks was caved in...and it was clearly installed that way. The case around it was fine. Little things like that piss me off.

It is how they lowered price.   These are not built as well as the s-3 were built.

Still in a farm setting where sound and noise are not a big deal they can run to freq 412 and hash at  1331 using 680-690 watts.

this is my 1 s-5 running with extra cooling in the form of extra fans  >>>   errors are 99.965 good and 0.035 bad.

[CptTripps]

Changed my freq to 387.5 and I've been cooking at 1.22~ for about an hour now. Not too shabby! Got to 8,731,648 shares on the last shift. That's about 200K more than I had in the last shifts.

I'm going to wait until we get the power situated a little better before I go any higher.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/28538855/tue-mining.png

[CptTripps]

Got the SP20s today. NICE units.

I'm going to give them a few hours to burn in before I start looking at the numbers.

I see why people say that 1.7TH isn't realistic. Mine are steady at 1.55 after an hour with the standard settings. I'll play with those a little later in the day when I have time.

I'll say this though, the QUALITY of the boxes is superior in every way.

[alh]

Got the SP20s today. NICE units.

I'm going to give them a few hours to burn in before I start looking at the numbers.

I see why people say that 1.7TH isn't realistic. Mine are steady at 1.55 after an hour with the standard settings. I'll play with those a little later in the day when I have time.

I'll say this though, the QUALITY of the boxes is superior in every way.

This is also where your cost minimization come in. Everything I have read indicates that the last 200GH area really pretty expensive to obtain in terms of power cost. There are multiple SP20 threads, even one that includes efficiency plotted again hashrate. The higher the speed, the higher the $$$/GH.

[philipma1957]

Got the SP20s today. NICE units.

I'm going to give them a few hours to burn in before I start looking at the numbers.

I see why people say that 1.7TH isn't realistic. Mine are steady at 1.55 after an hour with the standard settings. I'll play with those a little later in the day when I have time.

I'll say this though, the QUALITY of the boxes is superior in every way.

This is also where your cost minimization come in. Everything I have read indicates that the last 200GH area really pretty expensive to obtain in terms of power cost. There are multiple SP20 threads, even one that includes efficiency plotted again hashrate. The higher the speed, the higher the $$$/GH.

yes if I recall he has dirt cheap power 4.5 cents  so if he gets 770 watts for  1350  and 1000 watts for 1550  even though he is using 230 watts for 200gh he may be better off at 1550gh.

I just ran numbers at :

0.045 cents a kwatts
230 watts for 200 gh
diff of 41.27
btc at 223 usd 

he will make .29 cents  a day more then if he stays at 770 watts and 1350gh

[CptTripps]

yes if I recall he has dirt cheap power 4.5 cents  so if he gets 770 watts for  1350  and 1000 watts for 1550  even though he is using 230 watts for 200gh he may be better off at 1550gh.

I just ran numbers at :

0.045 cents a kwatts
230 watts for 200 gh
diff of 41.27
btc at 223 usd 

he will make .29 cents  a day more then if he stays at 770 watts and 1350gh

That's exactly what I'm tuning for right now. I'm going to let it eat tonight and play with it tomorrow when I have more time to dedicate to it.

[topminingcontracts]

Hey gang. I'm new here.

Quick background: My company has been in the financial tech space for 10y and currently processes about 500M transactions annually in the Gift/Loyalty space. We have an interest in linking crypto currencies, and that's what brings me here.

I have a friend with a company that has a 500 TH/s operation using the Antminer S5. We're looking at building something similar in the coming weeks, but after I started researching, I came across the Spondoolies-Tech SP20.

Looks like bang-for-buck has the SP20 in the lead, but I didn't know what else I should be looking at. I've tried searching here, but it's currently disabled.

Can anyone point me in a good direction?

I've ordered 5 S5s and 5 SP20s to compare the two.

Pros/Cons?

Thanks for the help. It's appreciated.

Both are good options.

I have many of both.

If is my desicion today I will get the SP20 for a large install because sometimes S5 stop working and require a manual reboot.

If SP20 underclocked is a bit more efficient also but nothing significant and if your electricty cost is low you can get 1.7 TH from SP20 compared to the 1.3 TH you can get with a S5 OC.

Juan

[TheRealSteve]

If is my desicion today I will get the SP20 for a large install

Might be a bit of a moot issue now anyway, seeing as they're sold out

We are Happy to announce that the SP20 has sold out.

[Biodom]

If is my desicion today I will get the SP20 for a large install

Might be a bit of a moot issue now anyway, seeing as they're sold out

We are Happy to announce that the SP20 has sold out.

Right, timing is not so good since SP20 is discontinued and S5 is unavailable as well.
Issue a massive call for used machines? will probably have to pay premium.