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Author Topic: Changing the miners transfer fee and amount of coins?  (Read 2399 times)
matthewh3
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July 20, 2012, 11:44:09 PM
 #1

If the bitcoin value keeps rising over the coming months to up to and over $20.00 a coin then each BTC0.0005 transfer fee would equal $0.01 and above.  Talking about bitcoin having free or very low transfer fees wouldn't it be best to move the decimal place and make a bitcoin instead of worth $20.00 a coin but to $2.00 a coin keep the transfer fee BTC0.0005 and have 210,000,000 coins in total instead of 21,000,000 coins.

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payb.tc
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July 20, 2012, 11:48:03 PM
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If the bitcoin value keeps rising over the coming months to up to and over $20.00 a coin then each BTC0.0005 transfer fee would equal $0.01 and above.  Talking about bitcoin having free or very low transfer fees wouldn't it be best to move the decimal place and make a bitcoin instead of worth $20.00 a coin but to $2.00 a coin keep the transfer fee BTC0.0005 and have 210,000,000 coins in total instead of 21,000,000 coins.

how about just change the default tx fee (as has been done in the past)?
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July 20, 2012, 11:52:56 PM
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If the bitcoin value keeps rising over the coming months to up to and over $20.00 a coin then each BTC0.0005 transfer fee would equal $0.01 and above.  Talking about bitcoin having free or very low transfer fees wouldn't it be best to move the decimal place and make a bitcoin instead of worth $20.00 a coin but to $2.00 a coin keep the transfer fee BTC0.0005 and have 210,000,000 coins in total instead of 21,000,000 coins.
that would confuse ppl alot and it's useless.

I think the bitcoin client needs an option to set the fee rules for miners and for users manually and there needs to be a way to resend a transaction with more fee if it doesn't get included in a block. Then the market could form it's own fee. But talking about fees right now is pretty useless because they are not even 1% of the block reward which means we could divide the fees by 10 right now and noone would get hurt.
matthewh3
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July 20, 2012, 11:57:53 PM
 #4

If the bitcoin value keeps rising over the coming months to up to and over $20.00 a coin then each BTC0.0005 transfer fee would equal $0.01 and above.  Talking about bitcoin having free or very low transfer fees wouldn't it be best to move the decimal place and make a bitcoin instead of worth $20.00 a coin but to $2.00 a coin keep the transfer fee BTC0.0005 and have 210,000,000 coins in total instead of 21,000,000 coins.

how about just change the default tx fee (as has been done in the past)?


Maybe devaluing the bitcoin base rate by moving the decimal place to increase total coins to 210,000,000 instead of 21,000,000 is better.  Making the value of a bitcoin seem cheaper and closer to the $/€/£ rate will help accounting and encourage investment.  Either we lower the bitcoin default value or starting calling them milli-bitcoins or micro-bitcoins as unit of account.  Inflating the amount of bitcoins is a good way to follow fiat money only we arn't devaluing.  Lowering the bitcoin value once it plateaus above $20.00 a coin will help day to day accounting and adoption.

Stephen Gornick
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July 21, 2012, 12:01:00 AM
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BTC0.0005 transfer fee would equal $0.01 and above.  Talking about bitcoin having free or very low transfer fees wouldn't it be best

One cent per transaction is still a "very low transfer fee".  With SatoshiDICE and its competitors gaining popularity, there will be more transactions than space per-block, so the days of bitcoin having "very low transaction fees" is likely about to become "relatively low transaction fees".

The 0.0005 BTC minimum fee will become irrelevant and market forces will determine how much the fee will be in order to get included in a block within an acceptable period of time.

As far as units, we are already seeing millibits (mBTCs) used more and more.  e.g., http://Bitzino.com and http://www.Ogrr.com both use mBTC exclusively.    Others will follow.   One millibit today (0.001 BTC) is nearly the equivalent of a U.S. penny.

At some point, the client can start dislaying mBTCs as well.

Technically, there is no such thing as a BTC.  At the protocol level, there are only Satoshis, worth 0.00000001 BTC each.

 - http://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/MilliBit
 - http://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Units

matthewh3
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July 21, 2012, 12:23:37 AM
 #6

One cent per transaction is still a "very low transfer fee".  

Not outside the wealthy western world it's not.  In lot's of places they still charge deposits on glasses and glass bottles.  If they can't afford to pay the >$0.05 fee they take there drink in a plastic bag.  It's OK for all you early western adopters with BTC1000's balances who want to see $1,000 a coin but above $0.0001 transaction fee is expensive.  Bitcoin needs lots of small very cheap transactions not just a few expensive ones.

matthewh3
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July 21, 2012, 12:32:43 AM
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One cent per transaction is still a "very low transfer fee".  

Not outside the wealthy western world it's not.  In lot's of places they still charge deposits on glasses and glass bottles.  If they can't afford to pay the >$0.05 fee they take there drink in a plastic bag.  It's OK for all you early western adopters with BTC1000's balances who want to see $1,000 a coin but above $0.0001 transaction fee is expensive.  Bitcoin needs lots of small very cheap transactions not just a few expensive ones.

I know a lot of you want to make bitcoin in to the new virtual eGold thats is very expensive and makes you rich but the bitcoin economy would be a lot better if it could include the transactions of developing counties.

lower transaction fees = more transactions = bigger economy   or you leaving that to lightcoin/altcoins to take bitcoins role  Huh

DeathAndTaxes
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Gerald Davis


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July 21, 2012, 12:41:08 AM
 #8

Are you talking to yourself?
Can you leave the hyperbole & strawmen out of the discussion?

The reality is Stephen is right, over time the mandatory fee is likely going to be LESS relvent.   Market forces will determine what fees are required and they will vary depending on what the user needs (i.e. to have a guaranteed placement in the next block might cost 0.01 BTC, to have a high confidence of being in the next 20 blocks might require 0.0005 BTC).  Users who want fast access are likely going to pay MORE than the minimum fee.  Free transactions will always be possible.  The mandatory fee is only imposed on low priority transactions. If you are willing to wait for sufficient coin age AND willing to wait for space in a block you can continue to use bitcoin without a fee.

Also I would like to put into perspective we are talking about a sub cent fee.  A fractional cent.  There is no other transaction system on the planet which is that cheap.  None.  Not even cash.  Most banks impose a fee of 0.1% to 0.3% on cash deposits over some threshold on business accounts.  If you have enough cash to warrant armored car service the fee is even higher.  Even at $0.01 per tx Bitcoin is the cheapest payment system on the entire planet.  Period.  The idea that it must be even cheaper to compete is laughable.
austonst
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July 21, 2012, 12:41:38 AM
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One cent per transaction is still a "very low transfer fee".  

Not in Africa or South America it's not.  They still charge deposits on glasses and glass bottles.  If they can't afford to pay the >$0.05 fee they take there drink in a plastic bag.  It's OK for all you early western adopters with BTC1000's balances who want to see $1,000 a coin but above $0.001 transaction fee is expensive.  Bitcoin needs lots of small very cheap transactions not just a few expensive ones.

I know a lot of you want to make bitcoin in to the new virtual eGold thats is very expensive and makes you rich but the bitcoin economy would be a lot better if it could include the transactions of developing counties.

lower transaction fees = more transactions = bigger economy   or you leaving that to lightcoin/altcoins to take bitcoins role  Huh

Okay, then let's reduce the default transaction fees. Done. There's no need to completely revamp the Bitcoin protocol, hard fork every client in existence, and change the very definition of the word "bitcoin".

matthewh3
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July 21, 2012, 12:42:37 AM
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Are you talking to yourself?

Can you leave the hyperbole & strawmen out of the discussion.

The reality is Stephen is right the mandatory fee is likely going to be irrelivent.  Market forces will determine what the fee is.  Users who want fast access are likely going to pay MORE than the minimum fee.  Free transactions will always be possible.  The mandatory fee is only imposed on low priority transactions.  If you are willing to wait for sufficient coin age AND willing to wait for space in a block you can continue to use bitcoin without a fee.

Also I would like to put into perspective we are talking about a sub cent fee.  A fractional cent.  There is no other transaction system on the planet which is that cheap.  None.  Not even cash.  Most banks impose a fee of 0.1% to 0.3% on cash deposits over some threshold on business accounts.  If you have enough cash that you need armored car service the fee is even higher.

Even at $0.01 per tx (which requires BTC to be $200 not $20 BTW) Bitcoin is the cheapest payment system on the entire planet.  The idea that it must be even cheaper to compete is laughable.


One cent per transaction is still a "very low transfer fee".  

Not outside the wealthy western world it's not.

lower transaction fees = more transactions = bigger economy   or you leaving that to lightcoin/altcoins to take bitcoins role  Huh

matthewh3
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July 21, 2012, 12:45:24 AM
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One cent per transaction is still a "very low transfer fee".  

Not in Africa or South America it's not.  They still charge deposits on glasses and glass bottles.  If they can't afford to pay the >$0.05 fee they take there drink in a plastic bag.  It's OK for all you early western adopters with BTC1000's balances who want to see $1,000 a coin but above $0.001 transaction fee is expensive.  Bitcoin needs lots of small very cheap transactions not just a few expensive ones.

I know a lot of you want to make bitcoin in to the new virtual eGold thats is very expensive and makes you rich but the bitcoin economy would be a lot better if it could include the transactions of developing counties.

lower transaction fees = more transactions = bigger economy   or you leaving that to lightcoin/altcoins to take bitcoins role  Huh

Okay, then let's reduce the default transaction fees. Done. There's no need to completely revamp the Bitcoin protocol, hard fork every client in existence, and change the very definition of the word "bitcoin".

Just that I reckon while devaluing the the transaction fee that devaluing the bitcoin unit of account not value may help long term with day to day accounting and general adoption.

DeathAndTaxes
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Gerald Davis


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July 21, 2012, 12:52:44 AM
 #12

Since you seem to have difficulty reading ....

Quote
Free transactions will always be possible.  The mandatory fee is only imposed on low priority transactions.
matthewh3
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July 21, 2012, 12:56:21 AM
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Since you seem to have difficulty reading ....

Quote
Free transactions will always be possible.  The mandatory fee is only imposed on low priority transactions.

What about "high priority" low value transactions.  Like someone buying a packet of cigarettes in Bangladesh with coins they have only recently received.  

DeathAndTaxes
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Gerald Davis


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July 21, 2012, 01:00:26 AM
 #14

The mandatory fee only applies to low priority transactions so by definition there would be no fee required for a high priority transaction.  If someone is using coins they only recently received then it is likely a low priority transaction (unless they received a large number of coins).

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_fees#Technical_info

I think you are confused into thinking that the protocol FORCES miners to accept certain transactions.  It never has and hopefully never will.  The MANDATORY fee simply exists to PROTECT the network against spam and denial of service attacks.

MINERS determine which transactions go into blocks they mine and may include tx with no fee (or fee less than the mandatory fee) and may also exclude ANY transactions even those with the mandatory fee.   Competition between users will likely force fee HIGHER the mandatory fee so you could set the mandatory fee to zero (a very dangerous idea) and the fee required to get into the next block will still be greater than zero.  Even today we strongly encourage our clients to use a fee of 0.002 BTC of higher as doing so greatly increases the likelihood their transaction will be in the next block. 

If you want to be in the next block you are going to have to pay.  Period.  The next block only has so much space and when # of transactions is larger than the amount of space miners will pick the higher paying transactions.  If you don't care how long a confirmation takes you can pay less or even nothing.  

You can't have your cake and eat it to.  You can't demand free transactions and then also demand that every transaction be in the next block.
matthewh3
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July 21, 2012, 01:08:36 AM
 #15

The mandatory fee only applies to low priority transactions so by definition there would be no fee required for a high priority transaction.

The first time I went to use my online wallet at blockchain.info it warn's you to pay a transaction fee or risk your payment not being paid.  Maybe I'm using a lame wallet not used the default wallet much.  Tho if people are working in small amounts of coins the transaction fee seems very expensive.  Yes it is very cheap compared to WU or international wire but I'm looking at trying to compete with MPESA as a default payment scheme.  Lot's of very small amounts of coins moving very often in to and out of different wallets very often.

DeathAndTaxes
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Gerald Davis


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July 21, 2012, 01:13:40 AM
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Maybe you don't realize that LOW PRIORITY AND HIGH PRIORITY have specific definitions.  If you could spam around thousands of tiny transactions without fees well guess what a thousand attacks could spam around millions or billions of tiny transactions without fees and cripple the network.

If the network determines your transaction is low priority then compliant nodes will refuse to relay your transaction without a fee.  This isn't done for revenue purposes this is done to prevent someone creations billions or trillions of tiny transactions a bloating the block chain by gigabytes a day.   It is a safety mechanism.  

None of this has ANYTHING to do with what fee will be required to have your transaction in the next block.  That is up to miners and what other users are paying.

Regarding MPESA last time I checked it isn't free.  Even at $0.01 per tx bitcoin is significantly cheaper than MPESA.
http://www.safaricom.co.ke/index.php?id=255

About 25% of the cost at the smallest transaction and less than 1% of the cost at the high end.
matthewh3
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July 21, 2012, 01:28:13 AM
 #17

If you could spam around thousands of tiny transactions without fees well guess what a thousand attacks could spam around millions or billions of tiny transactions without fees and cripple the network.

If the network determines your transaction is low priority then compliant nodes will refuse to relay your transaction without a fee.  This isn't done for revenue purposes this is done to prevent someone creations billions or trillions of tiny transactions a bloating the block chain by gigabytes a day.   It is a safety mechanism.  

Regarding MPESA last time I checked it isn't free.  Even at $0.01 per tx bitcoin is significantly cheaper than MPESA.
http://www.safaricom.co.ke/index.php?id=255

About 25% of the cost at the smallest transaction and less than 1% of the cost at the high end.

Well bitcoin survived and did well with below $0.001 transaction fees and I think anything above could cripple adoption in emerging markets and/or as a online micro payment.  Yes block chain bloating needs to be solved if bitcoin is ever to become a major payment network.  I can transfer any amount of money intra-bank within my country for free.  I can also withdraw cash and pay cash for free.  Whay pay $0.10 per transaction once BTC0.0005 equals so much?

Raoul Duke
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July 21, 2012, 01:44:40 AM
 #18

If you don't like paying $0.01 or $0.05 for tx fee you can always use Paypal and pay $0.35+3.5%

matthewh3
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July 21, 2012, 01:47:08 AM
 #19

If you don't like paying $0.01 or $0.05 for tx fee you can always use Paypal and pay $0.35+3.5%

I can transfer any amount of money intra-bank within my country for free.  I can also withdraw cash and pay cash for free.  Why pay $0.10 per transaction once BTC0.0005 equals so much?


Raoul Duke
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July 21, 2012, 01:48:56 AM
 #20

I can transfer any amount of money intra-bank within my country for free.  I can also withdraw cash and pay cash for free.  Whay pay $0.10 per transaction once BTC0.0005 equals so much?

How much time does that transaction take to be fully processed and how many docs did you have to provide?

And, what you mean by intra-bank? Same bank? Like, CityBank to CityBank?

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