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Author Topic: Permanently keeping the 1MB (anti-spam) restriction is a great idea ...  (Read 103902 times)
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June 23, 2015, 05:01:47 AM
 #381

The statistical data is based on all the users that run http://www.speedtest.net/ .

According to your explanation, if one were to run speed-test over and over, they should begin to get worse results, as the "powerboost" wouldn't be available [because they've been maxing out their bandwidth in previous minutes].  Is this correct?

I'm not doubting you.  Just wondering if we can test this somehow, because there's a lot of comprehensive data that I hope we can learn from there (http://explorer.netindex.com/maps).
Speedtest (and other similar sites) are primarily marketing tools. They are indeed applicable if somebody does non-p2p things like:
  • streaming video/audio
  • downloading/uploading files
  • multiplayer gaming on a centralized server

If you really want to advance Bitcoin (or other peer-2-peer technologies) you'll have to learn to filter the marketing misinformation and simplifications.

In particular, I understand that speedtest was explicitly designed using Flash application such that the user experience precludes you from triggering out of powerboost. It intentionally slows down your interaction by displaying complex screens and prompting you to inform others about your results. It makes it really hard to reliably repeat the test until stable results are achieved.

The only true peer-2-peer results that I have ever seen were collected using Bittorrent. In the past I used to do a lot of torrenting, now I just occasionally help people with their problems.

The true information about the performance of consumer broadband is extremely proprietary. Even the ISP's employees don't have access to the detailed technical information. There are two reasons:
  • obvious one: it is a source of competitive advantage and allows them to play various games with customers and competitors
  • non-obvious one: modern high-performance hardware-accelerated routers used by ISPs are actually layer-3 switches that are dynamically reprogrammable per packet flow. This is rather fiendishly complicated technology, even the professional networking engineers are surprised by their limitations

See for yourself: lookup on the web discussions about Cisco IOS commands e.g. "show ip cache flow" or "show ip cef" and see when you start losing the plot.

I've recently moved and I'm no longer directly involved in infrastructure details. But from few years ago I remember having a discussion with some students using Bittorrent and other P2P tools. Quite common observation was that overall stable bandwidth can be significantly increased by using a SOCKS proxy server, or trivial (non-encrypting) VPN connection (PPTP, L2TP, etc.) to a machine in some data center or even a dorm room. The consumer ISP then sees only a single pair of packet flows which they can handle more efficiently on their equipment.

Please comment, critique, criticize or ridicule BIP 2112: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=54382.0
Long-term mining prognosis: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=91101.0
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August 18, 2015, 06:33:59 AM
 #382

bump because this is worth a read to the " noobs "

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August 18, 2015, 06:49:33 AM
 #383

bump because this is worth a read to the " noobs "



no, its not.
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August 18, 2015, 06:57:13 AM
 #384

bump because this is worth a read to the " noobs "



no, its not.

If nothing else, it's worth showing the noobs that people have been setting their hair on fire over the supposed 'ZOMG RAISETHELIMIT OR ELSE DOOOM' issue for months, and Bitcoin keeps working just fine, heedless of their chicken little ultimatum/manifesto antics.

At least D&T had the good graces to bugger off after being proven to be yet another boy who cried wolf.  That's more than I can say for the current 'I hate thermos but I'll still participate in his forum' crowd.


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August 18, 2015, 07:06:34 AM
 #385

bump because this is worth a read to the " noobs "



no, its not.

If nothing else, it's worth showing the noobs that people have been setting their hair on fire over the supposed 'ZOMG RAISETHELIMIT OR ELSE DOOOM' issue for months, and Bitcoin keeps working just fine, heedless of their chicken little ultimatum/manifesto antics.

At least D&T had the good graces to bugger off after being proven to be yet another boy who cried wolf.  That's more than I can say for the current 'I hate thermos but I'll still participate in his forum' crowd.

You need to find another "HashFast" group to join seriously.

You're just too good and letting that talent to waste is a sin.
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August 18, 2015, 07:36:02 AM
 #386

Quote
Bitcoin ... A purely peer-to-peer version of electronic cash would allow online payments to be sent directly from one party to another without going through a financial institution.
Satoshi Nakamoto - Bitcoin Whitepaper

Limiting bitcoin to 1 MB forces users of bitcoin to use a 3rd party financial institution (Blockstream / Lightning Network).

Which goes against the very reason bitcoin was created.

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August 18, 2015, 07:37:06 AM
 #387

bump because this is worth a read to the " noobs "



no, its not.

this was worth a bump. People need to realize what the purpose of bitcoin was and how Satoshi envisioned it to grow.

Keeping 1 MB cap =/= growth.

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August 18, 2015, 08:00:57 AM
 #388

It seems that increasing the block size may negatively affect the current ASIC mining pools and they may potentially abandon Bitcoin if it becomes unprofitable for them. Consequently, this should allow an opportunity for a massive influx of GPU and CPU miners to return to the system. This is actually a good thing because since the arrival of ASICS, there are now hundreds of thousands of new bitcoin enthusiasts. This means that with more potential individual miners, the more decentralized Bitcoin will become!
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August 18, 2015, 08:16:15 AM
 #389

bump because this is worth a read to the " noobs "



no, its not.

this was worth a bump. People need to realize what the purpose of bitcoin was and how Satoshi envisioned it to grow.

Keeping 1 MB cap =/= growth.

stop extrapolating the vision of somebody you know nothing about.

+ i have never said 1MBcap for-freakin-ever. Mr extrapolator.
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August 18, 2015, 08:22:15 AM
 #390

It seems that increasing the block size may negatively affect the current ASIC mining pools and they may potentially abandon Bitcoin if it becomes unprofitable for them. Consequently, this should allow an opportunity for a massive influx of GPU and CPU miners to return to the system. This is actually a good thing because since the arrival of ASICS, there are now hundreds of thousands of new bitcoin enthusiasts. This means that with more potential individual miners, the more decentralized Bitcoin will become!

How did you come to the conclusion?

The changing of the 1 MB cap would instnatly make ASIC mining pools irrelevant?

How so?

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August 18, 2015, 08:24:48 AM
 #391

bump because this is worth a read to the " noobs "



no, its not.

this was worth a bump. People need to realize what the purpose of bitcoin was and how Satoshi envisioned it to grow.

Keeping 1 MB cap =/= growth.

stop extrapolating the vision of somebody you know nothing about.

+ i have never said 1MBcap for-freakin-ever. Mr extrapolator.

lol oh let's be presumptuous.

Stop assuming I know nothing about Satoshi. Let's stop with the personal attacks and stick to the topic at hand buddy.

First off you indicated that it would be not worth reading this main post of D&T for "noobs".

I think reading it does bring lots of things into clear perspective.

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August 18, 2015, 08:37:30 AM
 #392

bump because this is worth a read to the " noobs "



no, its not.

this was worth a bump. People need to realize what the purpose of bitcoin was and how Satoshi envisioned it to grow.

Keeping 1 MB cap =/= growth.

stop extrapolating the vision of somebody you know nothing about.

+ i have never said 1MBcap for-freakin-ever. Mr extrapolator.

lol oh let's be presumptuous.

Stop assuming I know nothing about Satoshi. Let's stop with the personal attacks and stick to the topic at hand buddy.

First off you indicated that it would be not worth reading this main post of D&T for "noobs".

I think reading it does bring lots of things into clear perspective.

noobs, redditards, whatever, this propaganda thread perfectly served the USGavin and GOOGLHearn FUD.

Bitcoin is not some paypal-visa-mastercard alike service, and not some yappy-yay way to tip the little african with frappuccinos.

finally, nobody knows nothing about satoshi. so just stop godifying each of his word, like "oh hey thats what he wants, means, shits..".
people dont even know if its a single person or a group, nsa or cypherpunk, blabla, wtf im out of this nonsense. peace.
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August 18, 2015, 08:38:42 AM
 #393

The opening page was really worth a read: whatever one might think it is important to be well informed before saying anything regarding the matter.
I'm not an expert but seeing the enormous division this thing is crate amongst everybody in here I think we should be more intelligent and more humble to take the time to think before saying anything.

thanks smoothie by the way..

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August 18, 2015, 09:30:30 AM
 #394

bump because this is worth a read to the " noobs "



no, its not.

this was worth a bump. People need to realize what the purpose of bitcoin was and how Satoshi envisioned it to grow.

Keeping 1 MB cap =/= growth.

stop extrapolating the vision of somebody you know nothing about.

+ i have never said 1MBcap for-freakin-ever. Mr extrapolator.

lol oh let's be presumptuous.

Stop assuming I know nothing about Satoshi. Let's stop with the personal attacks and stick to the topic at hand buddy.

First off you indicated that it would be not worth reading this main post of D&T for "noobs".

I think reading it does bring lots of things into clear perspective.

noobs, redditards, whatever, this propaganda thread perfectly served the USGavin and GOOGLHearn FUD.

Bitcoin is not some paypal-visa-mastercard alike service, and not some yappy-yay way to tip the little african with frappuccinos.

finally, nobody knows nothing about satoshi. so just stop godifying each of his word, like "oh hey thats what he wants, means, shits..".
people dont even know if its a single person or a group, nsa or cypherpunk, blabla, wtf im out of this nonsense. peace.

You call this thread FUD. Yet your post spreads FUD way more than the OP. "USGavin" "GOOGLHearn". You sure got them there! </sarcasm>
If you have some sound arguments refuting the OP then by all means share them. Just my 2 cents.


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August 18, 2015, 09:40:59 AM
 #395

bump because this is worth a read to the " noobs "



no, its not.

this was worth a bump. People need to realize what the purpose of bitcoin was and how Satoshi envisioned it to grow.

Keeping 1 MB cap =/= growth.

stop extrapolating the vision of somebody you know nothing about.

+ i have never said 1MBcap for-freakin-ever. Mr extrapolator.

lol oh let's be presumptuous.

Stop assuming I know nothing about Satoshi. Let's stop with the personal attacks and stick to the topic at hand buddy.

First off you indicated that it would be not worth reading this main post of D&T for "noobs".

I think reading it does bring lots of things into clear perspective.

noobs, redditards, whatever, this propaganda thread perfectly served the USGavin and GOOGLHearn FUD.

Bitcoin is not some paypal-visa-mastercard alike service, and not some yappy-yay way to tip the little african with frappuccinos.

finally, nobody knows nothing about satoshi. so just stop godifying each of his word, like "oh hey thats what he wants, means, shits..".
people dont even know if its a single person or a group, nsa or cypherpunk, blabla, wtf im out of this nonsense. peace.

You call this thread FUD. Yet your post spreads FUD way more than the OP. "USGavin" "GOOGLHearn". You sure got them there! </sarcasm>
If you have some sound arguments refuting the OP then by all means share them. Just my 2 cents.


keep your two cents and read the whole thread then... my arguments are all over it. Roll Eyes

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August 18, 2015, 11:57:43 AM
 #396

The opening page was really worth a read: whatever one might think it is important to be well informed before saying anything regarding the matter.
I'm not an expert but seeing the enormous division this thing is crate amongst everybody in here I think we should be more intelligent and more humble to take the time to think before saying anything.

thanks smoothie by the way..

no problem. It is good to be informed.

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August 18, 2015, 02:00:19 PM
 #397


Bitcoin is not some paypal-visa-mastercard alike service, and not some yappy-yay way to tip the little african with frappuccinos.


Lost it at "yappy-yay."   Grin

I'm stealing that, and the first thing I'll do with it is describe the Gavinista, sorry, XT Manifesto.

Don't blame smoothie for being mr extrapolator.  The OP started the strawman extrapolation by including the "Permanently keeping" operator, in order to frame all who disagree as irrational, extremist 'always and never' types (always 1MB, never moar).

Too bad for D&T his huffing and puffing failed to blow Core's house down and remake Bitcoin in the image of Square.  It was a nice try, to be sure.   Smiley


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whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy." 
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August 18, 2015, 05:27:22 PM
 #398

It seems that increasing the block size may negatively affect the current ASIC mining pools and they may potentially abandon Bitcoin if it becomes unprofitable for them. Consequently, this should allow an opportunity for a massive influx of GPU and CPU miners to return to the system. This is actually a good thing because since the arrival of ASICS, there are now hundreds of thousands of new bitcoin enthusiasts. This means that with more potential individual miners, the more decentralized Bitcoin will become!

How did you come to the conclusion?

The changing of the 1 MB cap would instnatly make ASIC mining pools irrelevant?

How so?

I inferred that by increasing the block size to 20 MB, the current ASIC miners would have to do a lot more work, burn a lot more electricity and probably have to add a lot more ASIC hardware in order to continue operations in the future for very little extra gain. Some of them will continue to make a profit, some of them will break even, while others may accrue a loss. As a result of this unprofitability over time, some of those miners will abandon Bitcoin. Never did I mention that ALL ASIC miners would abandon Bitcoin nor did I use the word "instantly".

In addition, with all of the centralized ASIC miner "factories" out there, if in time, they become unprofitable to maintain and decide to pull out of the "game", it will be a huge blow to the processing power of Bitcoin and result in major setbacks in terms of transaction time.

People are erroneously assuming that somehow Bitcoin will collapse if the above scenario were to play out. I am saying that individual miners will simply pick up the slack and eventually return Bitcoin to a decentralized network of peers. This is not 2012 when there were probably only about 10,000 people involved in Bitcoin. Today, there are hundreds of thousands of people involved in the Bitcoin ecosystem.
Imagine the combined power of all those CPUs and GPUs connected to the blockchain. I'm not sure if it would be as powerful as the ASIC network is today but I'm pretty sure it would still make a very robust network.

That's all I'm saying!

PS - What happened to ASIC Cloud Mining on CEX and other sites? Looks like it "instantly" disappeared. Grin
I wonder why?
Unprofitability... I presume!
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August 18, 2015, 05:28:50 PM
 #399

It seems that increasing the block size may negatively affect the current ASIC mining pools and they may potentially abandon Bitcoin if it becomes unprofitable for them. Consequently, this should allow an opportunity for a massive influx of GPU and CPU miners to return to the system. This is actually a good thing because since the arrival of ASICS, there are now hundreds of thousands of new bitcoin enthusiasts. This means that with more potential individual miners, the more decentralized Bitcoin will become!

How did you come to the conclusion?

The changing of the 1 MB cap would instnatly make ASIC mining pools irrelevant?

How so?

I inferred that by increasing the block size to 20 MB, the current ASIC miners would have to do a lot more work, burn a lot more electricity and probably have to add a lot more ASIC hardware in order to continue operations in the future for very little extra gain. Some of them will continue to make a profit, some of them will break even, while others may accrue a loss. As a result of this unprofitability over time, some of those miners will abandon Bitcoin. Never did I mention that ALL ASIC miners would abandon Bitcoin nor did I use the word "instantly".

In addition, with all of the centralized ASIC miner "factories" out there, if in time, they become unprofitable to maintain and decide to pull out of the "game", it will be a huge blow to the processing power of Bitcoin and result in major setbacks in terms of transaction time.

People are erroneously assuming that somehow Bitcoin will collapse if the above scenario were to play out. I am saying that individual miners will simply pick up the slack and eventually return Bitcoin to a decentralized network of peers. This is not 2012 when there were probably only about 10,000 people involved in Bitcoin. Today, there are hundreds of thousands of people involved in the Bitcoin ecosystem.
Imagine the combined power of all those CPUs and GPUs connected to the blockchain. I'm not sure if it would be as powerful as the ASIC network is today but I'm pretty sure it would still make a very robust network.

That's all I'm saying!

PS - What happened to ASIC Cloud Mining on CEX and other sites? Looks like it "instantly" disappeared. Grin
I wonder why?
Unprofitability... I presume!


Holyshit, the bold part..... My eyesbrowns jump off my face.... speechless.
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August 18, 2015, 07:01:36 PM
 #400

The opening page was really worth a read: whatever one might think it is important to be well informed before saying anything regarding the matter.
I'm not an expert but seeing the enormous division this thing is crate amongst everybody in here I think we should be more intelligent and more humble to take the time to think before saying anything.

thanks smoothie by the way..

no problem. It is good to be informed.

This thread is also very informative:

Bitcoin 20MB Fork
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=941331.0

But it's locked.  Gavin drops in a few times to fail at defending his 20MB gigablocks.

Quote

Visa scale.  On a "pretty good" computer and a "pretty good" home internet connection.  Using Bitcoin's inefficient-for-everything-except-security decentralized Blockchain.

Seems legit.   Tongue


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Monero
"The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine
whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy." 
David Chaum 1996
"Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect."  Adam Back 2014
Buy and sell XMR near you
P2P Exchange Network
Buy XMR with fiat
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