Pay Now or Pay Later!

[Sage]

KYC isn't something that banks want. On the contrary, they would love to deal with anyone and make profit. When they get caught, they have to pay massive [fines][1]. KYC is one of the most effective means to fight terrorism but let's not get into politics.

The bottom line is that the US government will not see it kindly. You could say that they say the same about copyright infringements but IMO, this is more serious. They already go after [`localbitcoins`][2]. They are isolated cases for sure. Still, I prefer to be safe than sorry.

> No, we need robust systems in place that can operate independent of those power structures, regardless of what crazy rules they try to come up with to protect their power base.

What structures are you talking about? Banks? Exchanges? Governments?

[1]: http://uk.reuters.com/article/2012/12/11/us-hsbc-probe-idUSBRE8BA05M20121211
[2]: http://www.coindesk.com/localbitcoins-users-criminal-charges-florida/

That's an interesting perspective on KYC.  Who do you think banks are bowing to?  And do your really think those same powers are interested in "fighting terrorism"?  No, they use "terrorists" to further their political agendas.

KYC is simply used to control you and me.

Power structures... namely central banks that control the governments.  Anything that threatens their cartels they will use any means at their disposal to destroy.

To think otherwise is just plain wishful thinking.

We need robust systems that would be very hard to single out and shut down.  Decentralized on & off ramps into cryptos & into the p2p exchanges are a critical piece to the crypto ecosystem.

The more options we have the better.  Bitsquare is a big step in the right direction.

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[hhanh00]

Independently from what KYC is for, it will be strongly enforced. At the end of the day, I don't think a system whose goal is to circumvent it will work like I don't think saying that my body is mine and I should be allowed to use drugs is an acceptable reason.

But back to bitsquare, the funding scheme doesn't work for me. I'd be funding a stage of the project without knowing if the final product would be delivered.
It's better for me to pay for a product that exists. Give a demo or something. Instead, they have a YouTube video and a whitepaper that is more marketing than tech.

I'm not saying it's a scam - I actually believe they work hard on it. The mailing list has a lot of activity. But it seems a bit disorganized and optimistic thinking. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

I prefer to pay when I use it. For instance, they could have an app-purchase kinda thing where the product would be free but an API would require a premium.

You seem to be nearly ideological when it comes to decentralized exchanges. Most of us don't share your views. I don't care about whether it's centralized or not. Furthermore, I believe a decentralized exchange will have even more scams. Coinfeine looks like a better choice at this moment.

[Sage]

Independently from what KYC is for, it will be strongly enforced. At the end of the day, I don't think a system whose goal is to circumvent it will work like I don't think saying that my body is mine and I should be allowed to use drugs is an acceptable reason.

But back to bitsquare, the funding scheme doesn't work for me. I'd be funding a stage of the project without knowing if the final product would be delivered.
It's better for me to pay for a product that exists. Give a demo or something. Instead, they have a YouTube video and a whitepaper that is more marketing than tech.

I'm not saying it's a scam - I actually believe they work hard on it. The mailing list has a lot of activity. But it seems a bit disorganized and optimistic thinking. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

I prefer to pay when I use it. For instance, they could have an app-purchase kinda thing where the product would be free but an API would require a premium.

You seem to be nearly ideological when it comes to decentralized exchanges. Most of us don't share your views. I don't care about whether it's centralized or not. Furthermore, I believe a decentralized exchange will have even more scams. Coinfeine looks like a better choice at this moment.

One thing I think everyone can agree upon, if you give central banks a lever to shut down or co-opt crypto currencies, they sure as hell are going to use it.

To try to appease them by complying with KYC requirements is giving them that lever.

Go ahead, comply with KYC if you feel it's the ethical & moral thing to do.  But know that lever is going to be used against you sooner or later.

The powers that be behind those rules have already proven they are anything but ethical & cannot be trusted.

It's wasted energy to try to appease their ever changing rules.

Doing the ethical thing more often then not means breaking the rules.  And in this case, I would argue it's the only practical approach to take.  We all know how the alternative approach will end.

Lastly, they've already given you a demo.  They have a working product right now.  Go download it.  Demo it to your hearts content.

To make it practical, arbitration needs to be added.  And that's the whole point of the next iteration this funding cycle will enable.

[hhanh00]

I haven't said anything about ethics. No idea where this comes from. I said that I comply with KYC because I don't want to be fined or end in jail.

The demo is useless as it is. You know it too. It's a token of good faith. It says: "We are working on it". Cool. But I want to know if it offers a better price than going to my local exchange. If not, I won't use it. Would you?

[Sage]

I haven't said anything about ethics. No idea where this comes from. I said that I comply with KYC because I don't want to be fined or end in jail.

The demo is useless as it is. You know it too. It's a token of good faith. It says: "We are working on it". Cool. But I want to know if it offers a better price than going to my local exchange. If not, I won't use it. Would you?

Forgive me for being so direct here... but frankly.... it's rather ignorant not to see that the more options for buying/selling crypto currencies will eventuate in lower spreads.

Whether you use the system or not you'd benefit in that regard.

The more options we have the better. 

The "demo" is just that, a demo.  And to make it useful they need the funding.  Nobody can work for free forever. 

[anonEmouse]

Out of interest, how do you get fiat into a p2p exchange?

[hhanh00]

Forgive me for being so direct here... but frankly.... it's rather ignorant not to see that the more options for buying/selling crypto currencies will eventuate in lower spreads.

Honestly, I only replied to this thread because you were calling people who disagree with you ignorant. I wanted to tell you that other people can have reasons to not believe into bitsquare. Resorting to name calling doesn't change it.

> More options lowers spreads
Yes, if the market is efficient *and* if these options are equivalent. Localbitcoin is more expensive but the premium is acceptable because it targets people who deal in cash. I don't see where `bitsquare` wants to position themselves. Their video doesn't explain that. It focuses on being decentralized but never covers the advantages. For instance, Bitcoin is decentralized: A government cannot emit more bitcoins or take them away from you.

The "demo" is just that, a demo.  And to make it useful they need the funding.  Nobody can work for free forever.  

They could work on an app-purchase model or on a commission.

Don't get me wrong, it'd be great if they succeed.

[Sage]

Out of interest, how do you get fiat into a p2p exchange?

Right now the options are limited.  

But if we have more solutions like Bitsquare, & they enabled altcoins like BitUSD, we could simply buy BitUSD for fiat through sellers on the system.

Then use the BitUSD to trade on the P2P exchanges.

Currently there are few on & off ramps into these exchanges.  And that's why we need to be supporting projects like Bitsquare.  

[hhanh00]

Out of interest, how do you get fiat into a p2p exchange?

You go through a payment processor like "OKPay". But they take a commission and enforce KYC. If you are bold, you do a wire transfer to the recipient. But then the receiver can never send you the BTC.
It's why the arbitration system is a critical component of `bitsquare`.

Coinfeine works differently. You can only use OKPay and you must have a small amount of BTC as deposit.

[Sage]

Forgive me for being so direct here... but frankly.... it's rather ignorant not to see that the more options for buying/selling crypto currencies will eventuate in lower spreads.

Honestly, I only replied to this thread because you were calling people who disagree with you ignorant. I wanted to tell you that other people can have reasons to not believe into bitsquare. Resorting to name calling doesn't change it.

> More options lowers spreads
Yes, if the market is efficient *and* if these options are equivalent. Localbitcoin is more expensive but the premium is acceptable because it targets people who deal in cash. I don't see where `bitsquare` wants to position themselves. Their video doesn't explain that. It focuses on being decentralized but never covers the advantages. For instance, Bitcoin is decentralized: A government cannot emit more bitcoins or take them away from you.

The "demo" is just that, a demo.  And to make it useful they need the funding.  Nobody can work for free forever.  

They could work on an app-purchase model or on a commission.

Don't get me wrong, it'd be great if they succeed.

An "app purchase model" would not be conducive to the ethos of a commons project.

Yes, they could do a lot of things.  Even get VC funding.  

Have a look at VC funded projects.  They haven't exactly been altruistic.

The last thing we need is VCs or equity holders co-opting the project.

 

[Sage]

Out of interest, how do you get fiat into a p2p exchange?

You go through a payment processor like "OKPay". But they take a commission and enforce KYC. If you are bold, you do a wire transfer to the recipient. But then the receiver can never send you the BTC.
It's why the arbitration system is a critical component of `bitsquare`.

Coinfeine works differently. You can only use OKPay and you must have a small amount of BTC as deposit.

The more options we have the better.  We can argue all day which is the best approach.  Let's get them into the ecosystem, and let the market prove or disprove the approach.

[Sage]

exchanges are not made to store your btc, point of crypto is you control your funds, no point in fixing an imaginary problem

if you keep btcs in exchanges you are:

1 - trading/speculating and extracting wealth from someone else or
2 - too lazy to proper secure your funds

Okay... gloves off... this is just getting rather ridiculous at this point!

Anyone who shares kazuki49 view has not studied the history of central crypto exchanges.

Anyone else share this view?

Bring it on! 

[picolo]

How much have you lost -- either directly or indirectly -- because of the shenanigans, hacks, frozen accounts, and all out thievery of central exchanges?

Whether you were a direct victim or not, if you're holding any crypto currencies, you've paid.  You paid in the loss of value.  You paid in the loss of trust for merchant adoption.  You paid in the loss of utility value.

...You've paid dearly for the actions of a small few!

Time for the community to do something about it.  A trustless, P2P exchange the crypto ecosystem must have if we are going to ever hit mass adoption. This project is a big step in the right direction.

https://bitsquare.io/crowdfunding/

C'mon guys.  Step up.  2 days left in the funding cycle.  Lets insure they get the funding they need.  Send a message to the F$$%# power structures that are doing everything to take down central exchanges.

We pay now for these kind of projects, or we pay a heavy price later when the next central exchange gets knocked off.  

A trusted P2P exchange would be nice but it needs massive and recurrent auditing + known and disclosed owners.

[Sage]

How much have you lost -- either directly or indirectly -- because of the shenanigans, hacks, frozen accounts, and all out thievery of central exchanges?

Whether you were a direct victim or not, if you're holding any crypto currencies, you've paid.  You paid in the loss of value.  You paid in the loss of trust for merchant adoption.  You paid in the loss of utility value.

...You've paid dearly for the actions of a small few!

Time for the community to do something about it.  A trustless, P2P exchange the crypto ecosystem must have if we are going to ever hit mass adoption. This project is a big step in the right direction.

https://bitsquare.io/crowdfunding/

C'mon guys.  Step up.  2 days left in the funding cycle.  Lets insure they get the funding they need.  Send a message to the F$$%# power structures that are doing everything to take down central exchanges.

We pay now for these kind of projects, or we pay a heavy price later when the next central exchange gets knocked off.  

A trusted P2P exchange would be nice but it needs massive and recurrent auditing + known and disclosed owners.

A distributed p2p exchange has no owners & by its very nature requires no trust or auditing. That's kinda the point!

[hhanh00]

Hmmm ... I'm gonna write an app. Decentralized and P2P through a gossip protocol. Just a list of advertisements to put buyers and sellers in touch. The rest is up to them.

[thejaytiesto]

Out of interest, how do you get fiat into a p2p exchange?

As far as I know, there isnt a single p2p exchange fully operative yet.